Close look at worn/weathered SD Hornby Dublo coaches

[locomad]

I'am quite a fan of Super detailed Hornby dublo coaches, they look good despite the short length, couple close in a rake, the colours capture well and match colour photos of the era, and flush glazing seem to take away that model look.

 

I've a few worn, battered, faded, scratched coaches either hammered of the years or purchased for almost nothing from car boots toy fairs etc.

 

These look quite realistic ie they have a natural weathered look, house dust, fade etc saves us weathering them, what I have noticed that these are not suffering from loss of paint round the windows which the carefully looked after ones, often left in boxes, seem to suffer.

 

Any one else notice this ?

 

 

Weathered/warn one

 

 

So called mint one

 

[Il Grifone]

They tend to rust around the windows which causes the paint to lift of course. Probably the sunlight which causes the fading  also keeps the item dry. Conversely careful storage, especially in the box, has provided conditions which favour corrosion. It seems to only affect the SD6 coaches. Perhaps they had cheapened the finishing process?

 

I carefully avoided purchasing examples so afflicted....  They have been in storage for several years. I must get around to digging them out and checking them over.

 

EDIT

 

To avoid having to decipher the results of my bad typing/ dodgy touch bad.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Coppercap]

I notice your 'weathered' one is certainly older than your 'pristine' one - the older one has tiebars on the bogies, whereas the newer one is one of the later batches without tiebars (like the all 1st, all 2nd and restaurant, which came later than the composite and brake). I wonder if the sides of later batches were not so well printed?

As Il Grifone suggests, storing them in the original boxes might encourage corrosion, especially if the cardboard has absorbed even an undetectable amount of moisture, as the sides are likely to be in contact with it - really rusty staples on the box usually give the game away. I saw an absolutely perfect-looking boxed Dublo train set on ebay once, but the seller sadly went on to point out the rusty sides of the coaches that had sat against the cardboard for 50-odd years - shame, but they could be replaced with good ones. 

I'm still a fan of these - they may not look particularly realistic, but they do seem to have a solid train-like quality that modern all-plastic models, accurate and free-running as they are, seem to lack. 

[Il Grifone]

It is possible to fit pin point bearings, but it does need non standard length axles.

 

It's more than likely that the later production was less well finished. The writing was on the wall following excessive 'resting on their laurels' during the fifties. No new locomotive between 1954 and 1957 for example - I can still remember the excitement for the release of 'Bristol Castle'. The 2 rail system should have been launched far earlier too. (Other examples can be seen in the other Meccano Ltd. ranges.)

[locomad]

Thanks for replying, on very close examination of the edges of the windows where the paint chips off I can't see any tell tale sign of rust like darker or black metal of iron oxide and non of the red rust of the other oxide, in fact the steel seems quite shiny.

 

The faded one shows no sign of flaking, it's however been exposed to natural light but not direct sunlight, it's part of a batch that have been used on successive layouts over the last 40 years while the more mint has spent more time been left in a box.

 

In general the condition of the locos follow the same pattern, those in constant use have a few more knocks, piles of dust on top, yet well out perform those left in a box. Even those left in a box I have noticed suffer paint damage especially those left on there side against the yellow cardboard

[Coppercap]

Thanks for replying, on very close examination of the edges of the windows where the paint chips off I can't see any tell tale sign of rust like darker or black metal of iron oxide and non of the red rust of the other oxide, in fact the steel seems quite shiny.

 

The faded one shows no sign of flaking, it's however been exposed to natural light but not direct sunlight, it's part of a batch that have been used on successive layouts over the last 40 years while the more mint has spent more time been left in a box.

 

In general the condition of the locos follow the same pattern, those in constant use have a few more knocks, piles of dust on top, yet well out perform those left in a box. Even those left in a box I have noticed suffer paint damage especially those left on there side against the yellow cardboard

 

That's how many of my (boxed, kept in a very dry place) examples are. I have a couple (brake 2nd, composite) which I bought s/h unboxed in the mid 1970s as a young teenager with little money, and they were even then showing signs of rusting under the printing around the windows. They were probably from a Bristolian set, as they had the nameboards (but these were available separately).

This was before many had come back onto the secondhand market, and swapmeets, so I had to buy what I saw in my local model shop. They really are the only two bad examples I have. When I started work I decided to buy decent ones, so went for the full set of five Western Region ones, plus a few maroon ones...

I almost get the impression the yellow cardboard is more prone to causing corrosion then the grey card of the standard boxes.

[Il Grifone]

I wonder if Meccano Limited expected  them to be still running 50+ years on? They are a credit to their manufacturer.

 

Not to run down their competitors whose products are also still running.

 

Any mechanism is preserved by being used. My car has been off the road for a couple of years and I am afraid she might not make it back.

 

I think coloured card is to be avoided. I use white card as dividers in my storage boxes and wrap the better items and those with expanded polystyrene packing in acid-free tissue paper.

 

I think I've got rid of all the bubble pack now! Luckily it doesn't seem to have had any ill effects

[locomad]

I wonder if Meccano Limited expected  them to be still running 50+ years on? They are a credit to their manufacturer.

 

Not to run down their competitors whose products are also still running.

 

Any mechanism is preserved by being used. My car has been off the road for a couple of years and I am afraid she might not make it back.

 

I think coloured card is to be avoided. I use white card as dividers in my storage boxes and wrap the better items and those with expanded polystyrene packing in acid-free tissue paper.

 

I think I've got rid of all the bubble pack now! Luckily it doesn't seem to have had any ill effects

It's no surprise to us they have lasted, where expensive at the time, well made, generally model trains get looked after, the hobby is still going 50 years later using the same guage etc. I've purchased other makes since but these seem to look the part. Another reason there's quite an toy fair, swop meet, eBay trading thing, plus average person who knows nothing about model railways seems to think there worth something so doesn't throw them away and trys to flog them if they don't want them.

 

Another phenomenon I've noticed is families who sort out there elders possessions tend to have a go at getting old train sets to work for a younger generation or themselves, perhaps it's the available instant access of the internet, forums like this and other sites. Years ago I used to get asked how much is it worth?, now it's more how do I get it to work?. 3 rail has an advantage here cause the track can be laid on the carpets and is easy to wire up.

 

Iam interested in why some stock stored in same boxes suffer storage damage while others don't, perhaps it was different paint batches, was a primer used?.

 

As for battered coaches they look ok in there own right on the layout a kind of used in service look, looking at old bfi films the 50's & 60's trains looked at times quite grim dirty,& grubby.

 

Another thing I noticed I've had quite a few visitors to view my layout, most are not at all interested in model trains, but those generally over 60 first comments is how the Hornby-dublo coaches remind them of trains their childhood especially maroon and blood & custard ones, it's the stock which seem to stand out.

[Golden Fleece 30]

It's no surprise to us they have lasted, where expensive at the time, well made, generally model trains get looked after, the hobby is still going 50 years later using the same guage etc. I've purchased other makes since but these seem to look the part. Another reason there's quite an toy fair, swop meet, eBay trading thing, plus average person who knows nothing about model railways seems to think there worth something so doesn't throw them away and trys to flog them if they don't want them.

 

Another phenomenon I've noticed is families who sort out there elders possessions tend to have a go at getting old train sets to work for a younger generation or themselves, perhaps it's the available instant access of the internet, forums like this and other sites. Years ago I used to get asked how much is it worth?, now it's more how do I get it to work?. 3 rail has an advantage here cause the track can be laid on the carpets and is easy to wire up.

 

Iam interested in why some stock stored in same boxes suffer storage damage while others don't, perhaps it was different paint batches, was a primer used?.

 

As for battered coaches they look ok in there own right on the layout a kind of used in service look, looking at old bfi films the 50's & 60's trains looked at times quite grim dirty,& grubby.

 

Another thing I noticed I've had quite a few visitors to view my layout, most are not at all interested in model trains, but those generally over 60 first comments is how the Hornby-dublo coaches remind them of trains their childhood especially maroon and blood & custard ones, it's the stock which seem to stand out.

Dublo coaches were a little more than Tri-ang's offerings but were in fact quite cheap themselves compared to Exley. When Dublo's were between 12s and 16/9 Exleys cheap ones were £2 plus to well over £3 and 4.00 so more than two or three times expensive compared to Dublo.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Hi Garry,

 

IIRC the bogies were an extra too? But we're not really comparing the same thing. One is a mass produced consumer product; the other a limited production 'scale model'.

 

 

It's no surprise to us they have lasted, where expensive at the time, well made, generally model trains get looked after, the hobby is still going 50 years later using the same guage etc. I've purchased other makes since but these seem to look the part. Another reason there's quite an toy fair, swop meet, eBay trading thing, plus average person who knows nothing about model railways seems to think there worth something so doesn't throw them away and trys to flog them if they don't want them.

Another phenomenon I've noticed is families who sort out there elders possessions tend to have a go at getting old train sets to work for a younger generation or themselves, perhaps it's the available instant access of the internet, forums like this and other sites. Years ago I used to get asked how much is it worth?, now it's more how do I get it to work?. 3 rail has an advantage here cause the track can be laid on the carpets and is easy to wire up.

Iam interested in why some stock stored in same boxes suffer storage damage while others don't, perhaps it was different paint batches, was a primer used?.

As for battered coaches they look ok in there own right on the layout a kind of used in service look, looking at old bfi films the 50's & 60's trains looked at times quite grim dirty,& grubby.

Another thing I noticed I've had quite a few visitors to view my layout, most are not at all interested in model trains, but those generally over 60 first comments is how the Hornby-dublo coaches remind them of trains their childhood especially maroon and blood & custard ones, it's the stock which seem to stand out.

 

The expense is relative - compared to today's models they were cheap. Tri-ang's SR utitlity van was 7/6d (around £10 in todays money) The Hornby version costs twice that and is made in China, not Margate.

 

No primer was used (they were toys after all), but the paint was heat treated - Dublo paint is very tough (as is that on Meccano, Dinky Toys etc.).

 

'50s and '60s trains were indeed grim, dirty & grubby. Steam engines are not the cleanest of machines, especially when fuelled on poor coal and there were plenty of other sources of muck in the atmosphere. No one worried about pollution from road transport for example. The old joke "she burns more oil than petrol!" wasn't always a joke....

 

I always thought the 'corporate' blue and grey was an uninspiring livery along with ridiculous lower case lettering - supposed "easier to read!" (utter nonsense of course.)

 

David

Edited October 26, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi David, the loco metal bodies were probably Stove Enamelled as the heat treatment process.

 

I thought the coaches were Lithoprinted using inks not paint which could be why paint matching is difficult. If they were Lithoprinted I have no idea if a "primer" type ink was used but it maybe is one reason the window edges were often bare metal. Tony Cooper's repro ones are like that and you can see the brass sheet around every window edge.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Hi David, the loco metal bodies were probably Stove Enamelled as the heat treatment process.

 

I thought the coaches were Lithoprinted using inks not paint which could be why paint matching is difficult. If they were Lithoprinted I have no idea if a "primer" type ink was used but it maybe is one reason the window edges were often bare metal. Tony Cooper's repro ones are like that and you can see the brass sheet around every window edge.

 

Garry

 

Hi Garry,

 

Yes I put 'paint' on purpose. There was an article on Dinky Toy manufacture in Meccano Magazine (I used to get it every month) many years ago and it was specified that they were stove enamelled. AFAIK Dublo diecastings were treated the same way. The lithographed finish of course wasn't. I think the last ones must have been cheapened in some way as there is never any sign of the ink flaking on the the early ones, especially pre SD6. I would wonder about the durability of lithographing on brass seeing how reluctant the material is to take paint. I used primer on some the other day and it still flaked off again. (Before the top coat I'm glad to say!) Perhaps I didn't clean the brass enough?

 

David

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Garry,

 

Yes I put 'paint' on purpose. There was an article on Dinky Toy manufacture in Meccano Magazine (I used to get it every month) many years ago and it was specified that they were stove enamelled. AFAIK Dublo diecastings were treated the same way. The lithographed finish of course wasn't. I think the last ones must have been cheapened in some way as there is never any sign of the ink flaking on the the early ones, especially pre SD6. I would wonder about the durability of lithographing on brass seeing how reluctant the material is to take paint. I used primer on some the other day and it still flaked off again. (Before the top coat I'm glad to say!) Perhaps I didn't clean the brass enough?

 

David

Hi David,

 

Regarding the stove finish metal bodies it always surprised me that the tenders (Duchess and A4) matched the loco as with normal stove enameling they could not be done as the temperature would melt the solder used on the front bulkheads. So:- either the stoving was not as hot as is the norm, or, the paint used gave the same finish whether stoved or not.  Obviously the plastic tenders could not be stoved and what is interesting here is that Dublo tenders seem to keep the paint on the black plastic base yet a lot of Wrenn ones has had the paint flake off.

 

Talking about paint etc on Brass I did take one of my etches to a company to see if it would work and the result was quite a hard finish.  It was easier to scratch than a Dublo one and did lift slightly if the brass was sharply bent.  This was just a colour in use at the time and did not go through all the processes so should be reasonable.

 

With reference to painting brass I have to say I have never had any issues in 40 odd years.  In the 70's I used Humbrol straight onto the brass on some Jamieson kits and when I sold them (bad mistake) about 15 years later they were still as made.  All my 0 gauge locos were done in the late 80's and those were car grey primer and Humbrol/Cherry paints on top and still look as good today, just look at them on my You Tube clips from a couple of years ago when I had them at a show.

 

There are  few more including the layout in its large format of 60' x 12' in the early days.  That layout only got to 3 shows as it was too big for most venues.

 

Even my live steam 5" Duchess was just grey primer on the brass and Cherry paint on top and that was used in steam for 20 years with very little paint coming off but I will say some did which was to be expected with it in use in all weathers at least once a month sometimes 2 or 3 with portable track events that I did most of during the summer months.

 

I once did try an etch primer on some of my Dublo etched coaches but found that useless and had to strip them so threw the can away going back to grey primer.

 

It is strange all the reports about MUST use etching primer etc on brass but I have never experienced any problems without.

 

 

Garry

Edited October 24, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[andyman7]

My understanding of the die-cast painting process is that in place of priming the raw castings were tumbled to remove the flash and then electrostatically charged to encourage the paint to stick and spread into all crevices, before the baking process.  

[Il Grifone]

Yes, Garry, it was an etching primer I used - a strange yellow colour and smell. Earmarked for the bin* as I've had far better results painting straight on to the brass.

 

I'll have to see if I can find the article (sometime in the mid-fifties) but there are a lot of MMs to wade through - all available on-line (You can buy a CD...). Reading, one gets side-tracked....

 

* We are supposed to re-cycle paint as toxic waste. At our local centre I enquired and was told to bung it in the land-fill  non-recyclable bin....

 

David

[peterfgf]

I'am quite a fan of Super detailed Hornby dublo coaches, they look good despite the short length, couple close in a rake, the colours capture well and match colour photos of the era, and flush glazing seem to take away that model look.

 

I've a few worn, battered, faded, scratched coaches either hammered of the years or purchased for almost nothing from car boots toy fairs etc.

 

These look quite realistic ie they have a natural weathered look, house dust, fade etc saves us weathering them, what I have noticed that these are not suffering from loss of paint round the windows which the carefully looked after ones, often left in boxes, seem to suffer.

 

Any one else notice this ?

 

 

Weathered/warn oneIMG_20171021_185338.jpg

 

 

So called mint one

 

IMG_20171021_185308.jpg

Coincidentally I've just got my old Hornby-Dublo super-detailed coaches out of storage, all from about 1906-62.  I have two maroon ones where the paint faded when, as a teenager, I left them to admire for several months in the sunlight on my window sill, see attached photograph. 

It also looks as they were painted or printed before the window and door apertures were stamped out: bare steel is visible around these openings - no paint means there is no protection against corrosion. 

I have to admit to rather liking these coaches, perhaps rather more so than the latest offerings from Bachmann and Hornby.  The price in 1961/2 was 12/6 or £0.625, which using a cost of living multiplier (just obtained off the web) of 20 gives a present day equivalent cost of £12.50.  That makes them look like very good value indeed at the time and yardstick against which to judge Bachmann and Hornby's models produced with Chinese workers.

Peterfgf

[locomad]

I left them to admire for several months in the sunlight on my window sill, see attached photograph. 

It also looks as they were painted or printed before the window and door apertures were stamped out: bare steel is visible around these openings - no paint means there is no protection against corrosion. 

I have to admit to rather liking these coaches, perhaps rather more so than the latest offerings from Bachmann and Hornby.  The price in 1961/2 was 12/6 or £0.625, which using a cost of living multiplier (just obtained off the web) of 20 gives a present day equivalent cost of £12.50.  That makes them look like very good value indeed at the time and yardstick against which to judge Bachmann and Hornby's models produced with Chinese workers.

Peterfgf

Yes you could well be right, as for Fade, it only takes a few days of direct light to fade some coaches.

 

A layout I had as a teenager was in a north facing room during one summer a rake of coaches was left out and the mid summer evening sun caught them for a few weeks, it wasn't till I checked other side did I realise damaged caused.

 

Your comment about stamping out after painting could well be right, I've noticed no rust on my coach window sides, hence the obvious silver scratch tell tale signs, I notice on your example rust, could it be the rust forms after the paint chips off?

 

Many years ago one example I had, I used a red wax crayon to hide the chipped paint, can't seem to locate that coach now so must have worked.

 

I also as a rule of thumb use the x20 formula to cost things out, although there was less disposable income then, certain things have got a lot cheaper like electrical goods, I myself think modern stock has just got too expensive, yes it's very realistic free running, etc but it doesn't last long, too fragile. Hence why maybe lots of interest in a very active second hand market

[Il Grifone]

I've used the 20 times formula for some time and 10 for the early seventies. Prices were fairly steady through the fifties and began to creep up in the sixties, roughly doubling by about 1972 and doubling again by 1976.* However I think some revision is now called for possibly to 25 times. Official figures are a bit BS as they carefully sample the market...

 

Car prices are probably the best measure (IMHO) as some things have varied tremendously. A colour TV in the early 70s cost more than today - £200 would only buy a small screen set (17") whereas house prices have gone through the roof. The house I bought in 1972 is now worth  getting on for 100 times what I paid for it....

 

* Galloping inflation usually blamed on the unions by today's press forgetting the OPEC oil rationing which was the real cause. Mortgage interest rates were actually lower than the inflation rates.... I can remember my monthly mortgage rate went up from £34 to £40 in about 1974, but was still lower than inflation.

 

Cutting away from the border line of the prohibited politics, from what I have seen it is the rust to cause the finish to lift as all the afflicted ones I've examined have been rusty around the windows.

[Coppercap]

Coincidentally I've just got my old Hornby-Dublo super-detailed coaches out of storage, all from about 1906-62.  I have two maroon ones where the paint faded when, as a IMG_5073.JPGteenager, I left them to admire for several months in the sunlight on my window sill, see attached photograph. 

 

Peterfgf

Was that HD's 'Barbie' livery?

[brianusa]

Referring to tinplate coaches, Dublo mainly pre war as in O gauge as well, they usually hold up quite well under normal use.  Trying to find mint items is a n expensive chore so I settle for if it looks OK, then good enough.  On these, the tinned windows are the worst problem as even a few scratches tend to show up whereas its not so noticeable on a coloured surface.  As has been mentioned, the real thing wasn't mint for very long!

 

Brian.

[Il Grifone]

I find the printed windows are the first thing to go on the original coaches, losing their shiny finish and going dull. I was going to experiment with cutting out and glazing, but life is short....

 

The LNER coaches in particular would benefit from this. The prototype was steel with faux panelling, so flush as modelled*. It's a pity they are a bit short. There was no reason for this as far as I can see. The formation should be artic. pair (Bk/3rd - 3rd) - composite - artic. pair. Unfortunately this is rather an expensive train these days! I'm experimenting with making up a fake repro articulated set. I've managed to straighten out a domed roof on a Bk/3rd, but the 3rds are rather hard to find. I do have a genuine articulated centre bogie, but I won't be using it. Meccano nuts and bolts make good bogie pivots. (M4 are just as good, but not in the spirit of the thing!)

 

* The BR version still has the faux panelling - unlikely I think -  and there is no full third. Further scope for modifications?

Edited October 26, 2017 by Il Grifone

[peterfgf]

Yes you could well be right, as for Fade, it only takes a few days of direct light to fade some coaches.

A layout I had as a teenager was in a north facing room during one summer a rake of coaches was left out and the mid summer evening sun caught them for a few weeks, it wasn't till I checked other side did I realise damaged caused.

Your comment about stamping out after painting could well be right, I've noticed no rust on my coach window sides, hence the obvious silver scratch tell tale signs, I notice on your example rust, could it be the rust forms after the paint chips off?

Many years ago one example I had, I used a red wax crayon to hide the chipped paint, can't seem to locate that coach now so must have worked.

I also as a rule of thumb use the x20 formula to cost things out, although there was less disposable income then, certain things have got a lot cheaper like electrical goods, I myself think modern stock has just got too expensive, yes it's very realistic free running, etc but it doesn't last long, too fragile. Hence why maybe lots of interest in a very active second hand market

I had a closer look at the what I think you identified.  There is no obvious rust and that mark appears to be a paint artefact:

 

 

The coaches in worst condition are my oldest which are two D21s, 4009 and 4010, and a D20 4047.  The first two were part of the Bristolian set and were bought for me by my father in 1957 (in Aden).  Considering the lack of care I gave them they are in pretty good condition except for tow corrosion spots (sweaty fingers?):

 

Peterfgf

[locomad]

 

I had a closer look at the what I think you identified.  There is no obvious rust and that mark appears to be a paint artefact:

 

 

The coaches in worst condition are my oldest which are two D21s, 4009 and 4010, and a D20 4047.  The first two were part of the Bristolian set and were bought for me by my father in 1957 (in Aden).  Considering the lack of care I gave them they are in pretty good condition except for tow corrosion spots (sweaty fingers?):

 

Peterfgf

Yes on your picture the top of window left of the door shows paint flake off, this I believe happened recently while the rust has formed on the right window after paint fake off.

 

I notice first a silver streak, then a dark almost black forming ( very hard to stop) that's the 1st stage of rust forming, then the red oxide.

 

If the coaches are not subject to moisture at all the 2nd stage rust don't seem to form, I've noticed ones not in boxes are less likely to suffer.

 

What puzzles us is some coaches which have faded in the past, used a lot, dirty with dust, finger marks etc just show no signs of loss of paint round Windows.

 

Exception of course is those which have had train destination board's removed, often paint has been pulled off when stickers pulled off, I leave them on.

 

In the 1970's I purchased one faded coach left in a shop window, then tried to polish it with car polish, it worked on the paint work but attacked the plastic window, replaced that sometime later, I've still got the coach it's paint work is fine but some fade, unfortunately I've not got a decent enough camera to show the difference.

 

 

Still I think there in good condition considering 50 odd years, although I notice a few more wobbly wheels I intend to replace these as an on going project with insulated 3 rail ones using same axle. They also tend to be more free running and less resistance.

[Il Grifone]

There's no sign of the flaky paint around the windows. This is just the normal 'play wear' condition.

 

White spirit will remove the wretched stickers (I loved them at the time and decorated all my express engines. Even Sir Nigel got one glued on the smokebox.) Usual caveat to check on an inconspicuous area first, but I have never had adverse effects. Acetone is another matter. A 'Royal Daylight' tank wagon bears the scar where I picked up the wrong bottle. I won't do that again! (It was pretty tatty anyway, so it wasn't a great loss.)

Edited October 26, 2017 by Il Grifone

[locomad]

Course once I start thinking about this and reading everyone else comments it doesn't take long for me to seriously check the rest of my collection

 

Seems MR maroon stock is worst effected especially the full brake van smaller Windows perhaps

 

 

 

 

Southern stock looks in good nick, this been the worse example

 

 

 

 

 

Real surprise was the western stock, this is almost mint, notice slithers of paint in the windows, yet none missing on body, notice too the tag, it looks like it's never been fitted to chassis, something I've missed 50 odd years ago and since, just shows we don't look at things closely

 

 

 

All these coaches have been stored in the same location and same box for many years, although some have been on various layouts at one time or the other