Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[Mike Storey]

Sausage and pickled cabbage?

 

True, but not in batter. 

[autocoach]

True, but not in batter. 

This gives a whole new meaning to "in the flesh"...

[Mike Storey]

This gives a whole new meaning to "in the flesh"...

 

If you are referring to meat and two veg?..... that would be pickled sausage surely? Or is it just me?

[Pacific231G]

Always ready to rise to a challenge I searched my usually reliable (and at 2300+ pages, comprehensive) Collins Robert French Dictionary but found no reference to a rail meaning / usage for champignon. TBH first time it's failed me.

Prof W came up with this

 

Capture.JPG

 

 

Colin

 

My Hachette dictionary, which is quite good on railway terminology, doesn't give that specific meaning but its second definition of champignon is anything whose shape is reminiscent of a mushroom. Apparently this includes the accelerator pedal of a car !

 

To be really pedantic double champignon doesn't exactly translate as bullhead. Bullhead rail has a head bigger than its foot- hence the name- and in French that would be  double champigion dissymétrique. As rail got heavier that became the most common type but some railways, notably the Chemin de Fer du Midi  had continued to use double champignon symétrique quite late, certainly into the mid 1920s. This was the sort of rail you were supposed to be able to turn over once the railhead had become worn (except that nobody did because the foot was corrugated by the chairs). I don't know when symmetrical rail stopped being used in Great Britain but was it generically referred to as bullhead or did it have another name?

 

In France, and I think elsewhere,  flat bottom rail is universally known as Vignoles, after its British inventor. For this type of rail the  foot is known as le patin, the head is le champignon (mushroom) and the web joiining them is l’âme. The Midi remained faithful to DC until it was absorbed into SNCF in 1938. The Ouest/Etat and Paris Orleans, who were using it almost exclusively before the First World War had started moving over to vignoles rail before they too were absorbed but I think there was still more DC than Vignoles at that time and there is still quite a lot of it in use today.  

This is Les Herbiers, the terminus of the CFV in Vendee. Note the steel sleepers.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Oldddudders]

ISTR references to “double-headed rail” in a British C19 context, probably LBSCR.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Guess whose food is better......

 Seasonal thing. Mediterranean style when the sun's out and it is warm. Ribsticking Northern stodge when the wind is blowing direct from the Russian Steppe.

[The Stationmaster]

The official French descriptions for flat bottom rail are either -

 

1. rail Vignoles, or

 

2. rail à patin

 

I'm reasonably sure that the UIC Lexicon would, as it states,  use terminology which is in everyday use in the various countries which it covers and it offers the opporrtunity for terminology to be added, updated, or corrected.  the terms I have shown come from teh second edition and would therefore have previously been open to any correction.

[coachmann]

I saw the movie.......The revenge of the Nerds.

[The Stationmaster]

I saw the movie.......The revenge of the Nerds.

 

But how was the food?

[Fat Controller]

My Hachette dictionary, which is quite good on railway terminology, doesn't give that specific meaning but its second definition of champignon is anything whose shape is reminiscent of a mushroom. Apparently this includes the accelerator pedal of a car !

 

'Champignon' applies in another railway context, as well, being the button (usually at head height) you push to keep powered internal doors open on railway carriages.

'Appuyer sur le champignon' can mean either pushing this button or, when driving a car, 'flooring it'

[mevaman]

On my new layout, based on Par, I want to use the Peco Bullhead points together with C & L track with their concrete sleepers. The C & L track for use with these sleepers is Flat Bottom.

 

My recent photos at Par reveal that all the points have wooden sleepers with Flat Bottom rail and the main lines and Newquay platform line have concrete sleepers with Flat Bottom rail. Therefore, the use of the Peco points would be a compromise.

 

Can I join the Peco Bullhead points to the C & L Flat Bottom rail. If so, what would I use for joiners?

 

Any advice much appreciated.

 

Andrew

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If you really want to do this, then filing down the base of the FB rail ends to approximate the bullhead form should allow Peco's imitation fishplate railjoiners to do the job.

[mevaman]

Thanks for the advice. I’ll have a go with one point to starry with.

 

Andrew

[Chamby]

On my new layout, based on Par, I want to use the Peco Bullhead points together with C & L track with their concrete sleepers. The C & L track for use with these sleepers is Flat Bottom.

My recent photos at Par reveal that all the points have wooden sleepers with Flat Bottom rail and the main lines and Newquay platform line have concrete sleepers with Flat Bottom rail. Therefore, the use of the Peco points would be a compromise.

Can I join the Peco Bullhead points to the C & L Flat Bottom rail. If so, what would I use for joiners?

Any advice much appreciated.

Andrew

I have joined both the peco and C&L bullhead rails to flat bottomed streamline, by grinding down a section at the end of the FB rail so that just the FB part remains, a bit like a flat tongue at the end of the rail section.  The bullhead rail is soldered onto this tab. It makes a permanent and stable join.

 

 

Phil

 

(edited to add photo)

Edited May 13, 2018 by Chamby

[mevaman]

I have joined both the peco and C&L bullhead rails to flat bottomed streamline, by grinding down a section at the end of the FB rail so that just the FB part remains, a bit like a flat tongue at the end of the rail section. The bullhead rail is soldered onto this tab. It makes a permanent and stable join.

 

IMG_2241.JPG

 

Phil

 

(edited to add photo)

Thanks Phil

 

The photo really helps.

 

Andrew

[hayfield]

On my new layout, based on Par, I want to use the Peco Bullhead points together with C & L track with their concrete sleepers. The C & L track for use with these sleepers is Flat Bottom.

 

My recent photos at Par reveal that all the points have wooden sleepers with Flat Bottom rail and the main lines and Newquay platform line have concrete sleepers with Flat Bottom rail. Therefore, the use of the Peco points would be a compromise.

 

Can I join the Peco Bullhead points to the C & L Flat Bottom rail. If so, what would I use for joiners?

 

Any advice much appreciated.

 

Andrew

 

 

The C&L track is code 82 and from memory the flat bottom is not too large, if you are into rail joiners the Peco Code 75 will fit both (don't forget the Peco bullhead rail base is slightly flatbottom in profile) or use the Exactoscale plastic or metal fishplates, which actually look far better than other systems

[coachmann]

Peco bullhead joins to Peco Code 75 flat-bottom no problems apart from the Peco rail joiners being a tight fit on the bullhead rail section. These rail joiners are actually quite slack on C&L and SMP bullhead rail. The bigger problem is sleeper thickness. Peco bullhead, Code 75 flat bottom and C+L 'hi-sleeper' all share the same sleeper thickness. C+L 'normal', SMP and DCC Concepts have thinner sleepers.

[mevaman]

Peco bullhead joins to Peco Code 75 flat-bottom no problems apart from the Peco rail joiners being a tight fit on the bullhead rail section. These rail joiners are actually quite slack on C&L and SMP bullhead rail. The bigger problem is sleeper thickness. Peco bullhead, Code 75 flat bottom and C+L 'hi-sleeper' all share the same sleeper thickness. C+L 'normal', SMP and DCC Concepts have thinner sleepers.

[mevaman]

Coachman

 

This is really helpful. I hadn’t thought about sleeper thickness (although this is obvious - duh!).

 

I may opt for C & L sleepers with Peco code 75 Flat Bottom rail. The idea of filing down the Flat Bottom at the ends makes most sense.

 

I will also look at the Exactiscale joiners.

 

Andrew

[St Enodoc]

Coachman

 

This is really helpful. I hadn’t thought about sleeper thickness (although this is obvious - duh!).

 

I may opt for C & L sleepers with Peco code 75 Flat Bottom rail. The idea of filing down the Flat Bottom at the ends makes most sense.

 

I will also look at the Exactiscale joiners.

 

Andrew

I lay Peco Code 75  on 2 mm cork and SMP on 3 mm cork. This brings the rail heads to the same level.

[Pint of Adnams]

May's Railway Modeller starts a new series penned by Craig Tiley about using this track system, this first instalment is titled 'Cutting, joining and laying' and next month's will address wiring options including equipping the points with twin solenoid motors and auxiliary frog switching.

 

Peco really do want to ensure the success and wide adoption of this product...

Second instalment is in the June issue of RM now out...

[Mike Storey]

I am not sure what is happening in France. Latest issues of LocoRevue (a bit like Railway Modeller) and RMF (Rail Miniature Flash) have more articles on using Peco BH, or about people who are using it. But Peco's adverts in both (after several months of pushing BH prominently) are now pushing the "Four" types of HO Peco Streamline Code 75 track - wooden sleeper, concrete sleeper, steel sleeper and bi-bloc. No mention of the BH range whatsoever.

 

I just wonder if sales have dipped on the previous Streamline, given the success of BH? Any retailers on here who have any comment about that for the UK market?

[Chamby]

I am not sure what is happening in France. Latest issues of LocoRevue (a bit like Railway Modeller) and RMF (Rail Miniature Flash) have more articles on using Peco BH, or about people who are using it. But Peco's adverts in both (after several months of pushing BH prominently) are now pushing the "Four" types of HO Peco Streamline Code 75 track - wooden sleeper, concrete sleeper, steel sleeper and bi-bloc. No mention of the BH range whatsoever.

 

I just wonder if sales have dipped on the previous Streamline, given the success of BH? Any retailers on here who have any comment about that for the UK market?

Most companies with a wide product range will allocate a budget to each product, or product group, for the year. What you are seeing is PECO maintaining a balance of marketing activity across its portfolio of products. It is a bit like the plate spinning act, you can’t just focus on one to the exclusion of others for too long or something starts to wobble...

[Mike Storey]

Most companies with a wide product range will allocate a budget to each product, or product group, for the year. What you are seeing is PECO maintaining a balance of marketing activity across its portfolio of products. It is a bit like the plate spinning act, you can’t just focus on one to the exclusion of others for too long or something starts to wobble...

 

Perfectly logical, except I wondered why they have excluded BH, when they could say they have "Five" types of HO track?

[Chamby]

Perfectly logical, except I wondered why they have excluded BH, when they could say they have "Five" types of HO track?

My guess is that they view bullhead track as a different track system with its own pointwork and joiners etc. The other four are all essentially the same system, sharing everything apart from the sleepers.

 

Phil