New Hornby 14xx

[Widnes Model Centre]

I can confirm these models have been withdrawn from sale by Hornby and retailers are being reccommended to test all of the models they have and act accordingly if they are indeed faulty.

 

We've tested all of ours here and although they run reasonanbly well light engine, as soon as you add a load (two wagons in our case) it just grinds to a stop - and that's if it manages to pull away first. The issue we can see is that the rear driving wheel, which utilises the tractions tyres and therefore provides most of the traction, seems to be 1mm too high and therefore sits above the railhead and does not make contact with it. 

 

I must stress that it is only part of the batch that are affected (unfortunately that happens to be all of ours) and if anyone is thinking of buying one, I would head to your local shop and make sure the retailer tests it under load before you hand your cash over - you may find a good one, you may find a bad one.

 

Hornby have advised we return all affected models for credit and they seem to be saying they'll be sent back to China for rebuilding - whether we'll ever see them again remains to be seen...

 

 

How was this communicated to you by Hornby? We have heard nothing and have sold out of 14XX.

[Derails Models]

How was this communicated to you by Hornby? We have heard nothing and have sold out of 14XX.

 

When we found the problem I contacted technical, described what was happening, they said they believed there was an issue but were still investigating and for us to test the rest of ours and let them know. Before I had finished testing the models I received a telephone call, again from tech but this time they were informing me that they were now aware that there was a serious issue and to return the affected models. HTH.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Derails Models

[The Johnster]

Thank you for this more definitive info, Little Dan.  I wonder if they've tried setting the trailing driving axle higher in order to compensate for the thickness of an oversized traction tyre to use up stock that may not be properly the correct size for this model (AFAIK it is the only loco H make with this size drivers).  Pity if they have as it compromises my plan to run the loco without the tyre, which always improves running and pickup, and appearance.  

 

The matter might be soluable with brass shim packing in the axle groove, but it would be a lot of faffing and fussing to get right.  

[John M Upton]

All in all slightly disappointing as I hoped to pick up a Railroad 14xx to convert by way of a face on the front into Oliver for my little one.  I wonder if the Warley Show exclusive ones are similarly affected, that would be very embarrassing!!!

[peteskitchen]

For some reason Hornby has made a new chassis and keeper plate for this model to a much lower quality than when it was non railroad. The axle slots are now square and the rear  non driven axle is rigidly mounted with no play. Mine could only just pull itself along. The old keeper plate had its pickups pointing upwards, but this one they point downwards and the rear ones foul the track. Snipping the ends off, slotting out the rear wheel slots and fitting a gentle rear spring transforms the model. Mine will now pull 10 coaches on the flat with ease. However I really don't like the square axle slots as these will soon wear and get sloppy, a problem I've had with an early produced 72xx. I suspect somebody said to Hornby you cant put a round pin in a square slot....

[Monkey28]

For some reason Hornby has made a new chassis and keeper plate for this model to a much lower quality than when it was non railroad. The axle slots are now square and the rear  non driven axle is rigidly mounted with no play. Mine could only just pull itself along. The old keeper plate had its pickups pointing upwards, but this one they point downwards and the rear ones foul the track. Snipping the ends off, slotting out the rear wheel slots and fitting a gentle rear spring transforms the model. Mine will now pull 10 coaches on the flat with ease. However I really don't like the square axle slots as these will soon wear and get sloppy, a problem I've had with an early produced 72xx. I suspect somebody said to Hornby you cant put a round pin in a square slot....

Thanks for the really useful information peteskitchen

 

I think I might cancel my order for the warley 50th year edition and see if I can find a good second hand 14xx

[Silver Sidelines]

Thanks Pete very informative

For some reason Hornby has made a new chassis and keeper plate for this model to a much lower quality than when it was non railroad. ....

This was exactly my thoughts when Hornby produced the Railroad County of Hants - I thought a very disappointing model and much inferior to previous models.

 

Ray

Edited November 15, 2017 by Silver Sidelines

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks for the really useful information peteskitchen

 

I think I might cancel my order for the warley 50th year edition and see if I can find a good second hand 14xx

 

Well at the risk of many howls of shock -horror,you could opt for a Hattons DJM job.Yes I know it's almost three times the cost but I do like mine.....despite the criticisms that forum members ....with a degree of justification...  .....have made.I'm now off to dig a hole.....

[Ian Hargrave]

Thanks Pete very informative

This was exactly my thoughts when Hornby produced the Railroad County of Hants - I thought a very disappointing model and much inferior to previous models.

 

Ray

 

Excellent point,Ray.Glad you brought to our attention the County.It falls short as an acceptable representation IMHO by a country mile.

[The Johnster]

The only reason I was tempted to go for one of these was the very low price, but I now predict a re-issue with a better chassis, which will of course cost more.  The Hattons/DJM is 3x the price because it's 3x as good, but I can't justify spending that for a loco I don't really need when a 94xx and 8750 are still outstanding.  And I could justify a 45xx at a small push as well (Tondu had one, though I can't for the life of me work out what for!).

[Monkey28]

Well at the risk of many howls of shock -horror,you could opt for a Hattons DJM job.Yes I know it's almost three times the cost but I do like mine.....despite the criticisms that forum members ....with a degree of justification...  .....have made.I'm now off to dig a hole.....

 

I have been looking at the DJM 14xx . The Hornby warley limited edition is £49 posted from rails so the DJM is an extra £50 but as you say is a better model . I would not pay any more for the Hornby one

[Monkey28]

The only reason I was tempted to go for one of these was the very low price, but I now predict a re-issue with a better chassis, which will of course cost more.  The Hattons/DJM is 3x the price because it's 3x as good, but I can't justify spending that for a loco I don't really need when a 94xx and 8750 are still outstanding.  And I could justify a 45xx at a small push as well (Tondu had one, though I can't for the life of me work out what for!).

 

I think that’s why most people were tempted by the Hornby 14xx .

 

If they do another new chassis and it puts the price up I think most people would go for the DJM model instead

 

I wonder if the original Hornby chassis tooling was damaged that’s why they have made this poor quality new one. Can’t see any other reason for them making a new chassis for the 14xx . It certainly hasn’t improved the model

[The Johnster]

I imagine they intended to reduce production costs with a new easier/cheaper to build chassis, having costed it to be worth the development costs.  In fact the new chassis has proved a problem and they have lost out on the deal, not being able to recoup any of their development costs and possibly having to stump up the price of developing a brand new chassis from scratch if producing older designs is prohibitively expensive; this is why I reckon the model will be eventually re-introduced at a higher price (or abandoned altogether).

 

This is entirely guesswork on my part and I doubt H will own up if they have made such an error; the shareholders will not be amused!  One of the drawbacks of having model parts commissioned by Chinese 3rd parties is that quality control during the development process is out of your hands, and all you can do is wait for the finished part to arrive and hope it works.  Generally, to be fair, it does, but it is not a guaranteed situation!

[Miss Prism]

Sounds like an unfortunate step back into the design-stupid era.

[Izzy]

From what I have read so far I understand that not all the locos produced are affected, just certain batches. Is this correct? Noting the reference to the pickups facing down and those for the rear trailing wheels fouling the track, could it just be a simple case of some of the batches of keeper plates having these pickups fitted the wrong way up, pointing down rather than up as is more common, a production error rather than a basic design fault. Rather a shame whatever.

 

Izzy

[JSpencer]

I imagine they intended to reduce production costs with a new easier/cheaper to build chassis, having costed it to be worth the development costs.  In fact the new chassis has proved a problem and they have lost out on the deal, not being able to recoup any of their development costs and possibly having to stump up the price of developing a brand new chassis from scratch if producing older designs is prohibitively expensive; this is why I reckon the model will be eventually re-introduced at a higher price (or abandoned altogether).

 

This is entirely guesswork on my part and I doubt H will own up if they have made such an error; the shareholders will not be amused!  One of the drawbacks of having model parts commissioned by Chinese 3rd parties is that quality control during the development process is out of your hands, and all you can do is wait for the finished part to arrive and hope it works.  Generally, to be fair, it does, but it is not a guaranteed situation!

 

The 14XX being one of the older toolings, the previous chassis is not so complex by default that I doubt there is much to symplify. It used a cheap motor and gears. Unless they lost parts of the tooling or previous tooling is shot, I doubt it would be worth re-developing.

[Ian Hargrave]

From what I have read so far I understand that not all the locos produced are affected, just certain batches. Is this correct? Noting the reference to the pickups facing down and those for the rear trailing wheels fouling the track, could it just be a simple case of some of the batches of keeper plates having these pickups fitted the wrong way up, pointing down rather than up as is more common, a production error rather than a basic design fault. Rather a shame whatever.

 

Izzy

 

Agree.A bit early to rush to judgement and a little unfair on Hornby's R&D team.Sure,it may be a design fault but is equally likely to be a manufacturing mishap

[The Johnster]

'Just certain batches', actually it looks as if the faulty models are mixed in with the good'uns which is why they've all had to be recalled, suggests that there is more than one supplier of the affected components in China, where Hornby deal with a single firm responsible for assembly but which sub-contracts the actual production of components (this is the Chinese business model); if one sub-contractor has supplied components not to spec and this has not been discovered before the models are assembled for shipping, that would explain the situation.  It is entirely plausible that a Chinese sub contractor has fitted the pickups the wrong way up; he will probably be unaware of what the thing he is building is or what it is for, just producing to a CAD file emailed to him.

 

There seem to be two separate issues here, one involving the height at which the rear driving wheels sit and means that they do not contact the rails properly, which is a chassis block fault, and one involving the mounting of the pickups on the keeper plate.  Presumably a model may have either, both, or neither of these problems.

[peteskitchen]

I imagine they intended to reduce production costs with a new easier/cheaper to build chassis, having costed it to be worth the development costs.  In fact the new chassis has proved a problem and they have lost out on the deal, not being able to recoup any of their development costs and possibly having to stump up the price of developing a brand new chassis from scratch if producing older designs is prohibitively expensive; this is why I reckon the model will be eventually re-introduced at a higher price (or abandoned altogether).

 

This is entirely guesswork on my part and I doubt H will own up if they have made such an error; the shareholders will not be amused!  One of the drawbacks of having model parts commissioned by Chinese 3rd parties is that quality control during the development process is out of your hands, and all you can do is wait for the finished part to arrive and hope it works.  Generally, to be fair, it does, but it is not a guaranteed situation!

 The new chassis looks exactly the same as the old one and is interchangeable, but with square cutouts instead of curved ones for the axles. I can't imagine that that would be any cheaper to produce than the original, plus there must have been some costs involved modifying the existing tooling to make them. Another strange anomaly is they have changed the vac pipes to more accurate ones and are painted red where they are in line with the buffer beams making them look on par with super detail range. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by peteskitchen

[peteskitchen]

'Just certain batches', actually it looks as if the faulty models are mixed in with the good'uns which is why they've all had to be recalled, suggests that there is more than one supplier of the affected components in China, where Hornby deal with a single firm responsible for assembly but which sub-contracts the actual production of components (this is the Chinese business model); if one sub-contractor has supplied components not to spec and this has not been discovered before the models are assembled for shipping, that would explain the situation.  It is entirely plausible that a Chinese sub contractor has fitted the pickups the wrong way up; he will probably be unaware of what the thing he is building is or what it is for, just producing to a CAD file emailed to him.

There seem to be two separate issues here, one involving the height at which the rear driving wheels sit and means that they do not contact the rails properly, which is a chassis block fault, and one involving the mounting of the pickups on the keeper plate.  Presumably a model may have either, both, or neither of these problems.

 

 I wonder if they had some of the old chassis blocks left over from a previous run (IIRC the titfield thunderbolt pack was its last outing) and used them up. As for the pickups they all face down now, I suspect it has been changed to make assembly easier as the old keeper plate was a right fiddle to get in without one or more of the pickups fouling a spoke and bending over during assembly. With them facing down you just push the keeper plate on, and bob's your uncle 

Edited November 17, 2017 by peteskitchen

[railroadbill]

It seems to me that there is a problem with the pickups on the 14xx pointing down and contacting the back of the flange at the bottom. 

 

When the loco (or any rolling stock) passes through pointwork,  doesn't the inner face of the flange contact the check rail to guide the stock through the point?  One side or the other depending on it being a left or right handed point. 

 

Therefore each time the loco goes through a point,  all the outside of pickups on one side or the other will rub along the check rail. However well they may be  adjusted to start with,  they aren't likely to last like that too long.  Or am I missing something here?

[Hroth]

From the one that was (briefly) in my ownership, the pickups looked well clear of any trackwork, I was pleased to see that they'd done away with the plungers!  However, I didn't disembowl the thing as it was going back.  Mine didn't even have the decency to turn a wheel, let alone fail to pull anything along.  It just stood there and buzzed. 

 

I've a feeling there was shoddy work in the factory, and it was just thrown together by people more used to making "traditional trains" (of indeterminate scale/gauge...) to sell for £10 in a bargain store.  In a way its a good thing that there are only six wheels on a 14xx.  Imagine the failure rate with more  wheels and external valve gear to boot!

[KGV]

It seems to me that there is a problem with the pickups on the 14xx pointing down and contacting the back of the flange at the bottom. 

 

When the loco (or any rolling stock) passes through pointwork,  doesn't the inner face of the flange contact the check rail to guide the stock through the point?  One side or the other depending on it being a left or right handed point. 

 

Therefore each time the loco goes through a point,  all the outside of pickups on one side or the other will rub along the check rail. However well they may be  adjusted to start with,  they aren't likely to last like that too long.  Or am I missing something here?

 

I have attached a couple of images that show the over-length pick-up wipers and that the rear driver is a tad too high on the track.

Indeed mine initially fouled on point check-rails (see post #1) but I solved that by easing out the rear trailing wheels (see post #4) but post #30 seems to have a far better solution.

 

Mine can pull 3 hawksworth coaches (it wheel-spins on 6); but is quite happy darting about with its auto-coach.  

Edited November 20, 2017 by KGV

[railroadbill]

KGV,

See what you mean about the too long rear pickups. Mine had ones that were shorter and ran against the bottom of the inside flange. Perhaps Hornby just bent them back before returning them to dealers? They didn't go below the bottom of the flange like the ones in the pic.  However, one of mine (sent both back) still stuck on points, the pickups on the centre drivers had one where  it runs on yours but the other side went to the bottom of the wheel.  I think that was where it stuck on points and makes  me wonder if those pickups were getting pushed against the check rail on points, catching,  and being bent.

 

Like yours, the centre drivers with the traction tyres were too high on mine to run on the rail and that must be the same with all of them, so they don't pull well. But they could pull enough for some people's use (ie one coach). 2 wagons were the limit on one but the other wouldn't pull anything, wouldn't start without a push  and kept stalling.

 

The "springing the rear axle  solution" suggested above sounds a good  work around, without too much effort.  If all wheels sit on the track then  it should run fine. I was tempted to try with the better one but since the really bad one needed to go back....  no problem in getting refund from very helpful dealer.

 

On the plus side:

1. Good finish

2. Can run very slowly (well one of them did)

3. Cheap (very)

 

It would be interesting to hear people's experiences of   any railroad 14xxs after  they have had a lot of running, to see how the pickups survive. 

 

Still tempted to try one again, but I had my 1981 Airfix l4xx running to compare and since it is now running well (after lot of tlc on the plunger pickups a while ago!)  I thought I might as well stick with that one (given it's the  same body)....

Edited November 21, 2017 by railroadbill

[No Decorum]

For some reason Hornby has made a new chassis and keeper plate for this model to a much lower quality than when it was non railroad. The axle slots are now square and the rear  non driven axle is rigidly mounted with no play. Mine could only just pull itself along. The old keeper plate had its pickups pointing upwards, but this one they point downwards and the rear ones foul the track. Snipping the ends off, slotting out the rear wheel slots and fitting a gentle rear spring transforms the model. Mine will now pull 10 coaches on the flat with ease. However I really don't like the square axle slots as these will soon wear and get sloppy, a problem I've had with an early produced 72xx. I suspect somebody said to Hornby you cant put a round pin in a square slot....

I’m indebted to you for this information. I was intending to get one of these in the hope of getting a decent-running model but those features decided me against it. I shall make do with the older Hornby version I have and re-wheel it if I ever get around to it.

 

As for the 72XX, mine are not worked hard but I suspected the arrangement would wear rapidly. Good to know.