Point Motor MP1 and MP5 Anyone tried them yet?

[Mike Storey]

I have recently read a review of these in a French railway modeller magazine ( Loco-Revue, Nov 2017) which, in summary, describes them as a competitor to the slow speed Tortoise and the Cobalt, but much smaller and cheaper. They would not recommend them as they are fairly new to the French market and therefore unproven. (This was a comparison of 10 different point motors, but which did not include Cobalts, despite reviewing them only two months before). They chose Tortoise as the best to go for overall due to the long term evidence of its reliability and its slow action,  but the Peco PL-10 for solenoids for overall economy and long life, and even the Peco Smart Switch system as highly recommended, for being a total system in the servo world.

 

However, further investigation showed they have been around for at least two years, possibly more, but, being Czech made, their sales have been confined to Eastern Europe for some years, but sales outlets have now expanded, although none shown in the UK. The website of the manufacturers, MTB Model, has an English language version, but the technical translation leaves a bit to be desired and the wiring instructions are somewhat dependent on good knowledge of electrical symbols.

 

There was a review of them in Loco-Review back in August, which I missed, but apparently it is almost entirely lifted from a blog by the author, according to posts on the French equivalent of RMWeb.

 

I am drawn to these due to the very easy conversion to surface use (no extras involved, just a bit of wire bending) and their small size, thus competing with the new DCC Concepts SS motors on price, and the fact that they are made in Europe and not China. But the wiring instructions are not illuminating for an idiot.

 

There are two versions - MP1 and MP5. The key difference is that the first has only one ancillary outlet, primarily for frog polarity change, whereas the latter has two, so that wiring for interlocking with a signal, or indication of last direction set on a panel, is built in. Bulk discounts are attractively priced. You pay an extra 4 euros for an MP5.

 

I had decided upon Cobalt SS as the most likely predominating point motor for my new layout, but these have set me thinking. My question is - has anyone else heard of these, let alone tried them in anger?

[Mike Storey]

Forgot to post the link, if anyone wants a gander:

 

http://mtb-model.com/pages/mp1.php?lang=en

 

 

And the link to the RMWeb equivalent in France (Forums LR Presse) with the discussion about them there:

 

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?t=80491

Edited November 10, 2017 by Mike Storey

[ejstubbs]

...further investigation showed they have been around for at least two years, possibly more, but, being Czech made, their sales have been confined to Eastern Europe for some years, but sales outlets have now expanded, although none shown in the UK.

 

These folks have the MP1 listed: http://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/mp1-point-switch.html - I know nothing more about them than that web page, though.  You could probably buy them from one of their German dealers easily enough, I'd have thought.

 

This US retailer has a bit more info: http://www.modelrailroadcontrolsystems.com/mp1-switch-motor/

 

One thing that would appeal to me about the MTB motors is that they are only 1/2" deep, so shouldn't protrude below baseboards braced with 2x1.

 

I note that they use an end-of-travel switch - and the US retailer states specifically that they don't use a stall motor.  I wonder if they're based on a similar idea to the "servo hack" point motors that have been discussed on RMWeb a few times recently?  Here and here, for example.  That would make them rather more complicated than the Tortoise and Cobalt offerings which don't need the end-of-travel switch, so potentially more prone to failure simply as a result of having more moving parts.  I suspect only real-life experience could really give a clear indication on that front, though.

 

Regarding the adjustable throw: this seems to be achieved purely mechanically, and there doesn't appear to be any speed control on the motor.  I suspect, therefore, that the 9mm throw setting would move three times as fast as the 3mm throw setting (ie it would cover three times the distance in the same time - all other things like resistance to movement, mechanical advantage etc being equal).  So the longer throw setting might not be suitable for folks who want things to move reeaallllyyy slloowwwlllyyyy.  Mind you, I've no idea how slow or fast the 3mm setting is, so the point might turn out to be be moot anyway.  (Might it also be a function of the applied voltage?)

 

Talking of applied voltage: I think the wiring is fairly clear from the information in the MP1 instruction leaflet - less so for the MP5 because it's only in Czech!

 

I have to say, the Cobalt SS point motors are a heck of a price...

Edited November 10, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Podhunter]

Forgot to post the link, if anyone wants a gander:

 

http://mtb-model.com/pages/mp1.php?lang=en

 

But what are 'Miniature scantlings'?

[ejstubbs]

Scantlings that are smaller than life-size ones.  Obviously.

 

Or we could consult the OED:

 

scantling

NOUN

 

1 A timber beam of small cross section.

Synonyms

joist, purlin, girder, spar, support, strut, stay, brace, batten, transom, lintel, stringer, baulk, board, timber, plank, lath, rafter

1.1 The size to which a piece of timber or stone is measured and cut.

2 (often scantlings) A set of standard dimensions for parts of a structure, especially in shipbuilding.

Example sentences

3 (archaic) A specimen, sample, or small amount of something.

 

If you mash together meanings 1.1 and 2 above then "miniature scantlings" could be read as meaning "small dimensions" - which seems to be a reasonable assertion in comparison to Tortoise and Cobalt point motors.

 

(If you put "scantlings" in to Google Translate, you get "výřezy" as the Czech equivalent.  Reverse the process and it translates "výřezy" as "cutouts".  But Google Translate is far from 100% reliable.)

Edited November 10, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Mike Storey]

These folks have the MP1 listed: http://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/mp1-point-switch.html - I know nothing more about them than that web page, though.  You could probably buy them from one of their German dealers easily enough, I'd have thought.

 

This US retailer has a bit more info: http://www.modelrailroadcontrolsystems.com/mp1-switch-motor/

 

One thing that would appeal to me about the MTB motors is that they are only 1/2" deep, so shouldn't protrude below baseboards braced with 2x1.

 

I note that they use an end-of-travel switch - and the US retailer states specifically that they don't use a stall motor.  I wonder if they're based on a similar idea to the "servo hack" point motors that have been discussed on RMWeb a few times recently?  Here and here, for example.  That would make them rather more complicated than the Tortoise and Cobalt offerings which don't need the end-of-travel switch, so potentially more prone to failure simply as a result of having more moving parts.  I suspect only real-life experience could really give a clear indication on that front, though.

 

Regarding the adjustable throw: this seems to be achieved purely mechanically, and there doesn't appear to be any speed control on the motor.  I suspect, therefore, that the 9mm throw setting would move three times as fast as the 3mm throw setting (ie it would cover three times the distance in the same time - all other things like resistance to movement, mechanical advantage etc being equal).  So the longer throw setting might not be suitable for folks who want things to move reeaallllyyy slloowwwlllyyyy.  Mind you, I've no idea how slow or fast the 3mm setting is, so the point might turn out to be be moot anyway.  (Might it also be a function of the applied voltage?)

 

Talking of applied voltage: I think the wiring is fairly clear from the information in the MP1 instruction leaflet - less so for the MP5 because it's only in Czech!

 

I have to say, the Cobalt SS point motors are a heck of a price...

 

Thanks for those links. The US one is particularly useful, with far more info and some very good reviews.

 

Incidentally, the "application" link on the MP1 US site, states that full travel takes 2 seconds, which is pretty slow, and well slow enough for me. The MP1 gives linear travel, which suggests to me that you get a constant movement better than the rotational movement normally used in switched motors.

 

Certainly small, but the Cobalt SS is similar, but the price difference is attractive, although not huge between the MP5 and the Cobalt SS.

 

Your comment about the additional moving part is useful to know, which does suggest a greater risk of failure or fault.

 

It is regrettable that the only UK retailer is only selling the MP1 at the moment, and has not bothered to do any more than replicate the MTB info.

[Butler Henderson]

These folks have the MP1 listed: http://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/mp1-point-switch.html - I know nothing more about them than that web page, though.  You could probably buy them from one of their German dealers easily enough, I'd have thought

IME DCC Train Automation are very reliable and the web site seems to keep right up to date on whats in stock or not. Think I might be acquiring two of these to work a junction signal - ruled servos out as I want to interlock the signals with the points.

[Podhunter]

Ruled servos out as I want to interlock the signals with the points.

While I don't want to dissuade you from that decision, I'd like to point out that MERG servos can accommodate up to four micro switches.  They bolt onto the MERG servo bracket and are operated by the servo arm. 

Four switches could be used for any or all of...

1. Supply power to a live frog
2. Provide route indication to a control panel
3. Control a related accessory (e.g. a signal)
4. ?

I use an extra switch to control the second point of a crossing, for example.  That is, the control panel switches the first point, which in turn switches the second point.

[Wacol]

Inside an MP1  - 

 

 

[ejstubbs]

IME DCC Train Automation are very reliable and the web site seems to keep right up to date on whats in stock or not.

 

I've just worked out that I'm one point motor short for the layout that is under construction at the moment.  I might get an MP1 just to satisfy my own curiosity...

 

Would it be necessary to remove the spring from a Streamline point to use one of these motors with it?

Edited November 11, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Mike Storey]

I've just worked out that I'm one point motor short for the layout that is under construction at the moment.  I might get an MP1 just to satisfy my own curiosity...

 

Would it be necessary to remove the spring from a Streamline point to use one of these motors with it?

 

I agree. I will buy one just to see whether it is a worthy competitor. What strikes me, seeing the insides kindly provided by Wacol, is the plastic "gearing" or linkage, used to deliver the movement, if I have understood the way it works - have I? This may bear comparison with the Conrad motors, which are also very cheap, but have never become very popular (relatively) due to their reputation for failure after significant use. This is blamed, from what I have read, on its heavy reliance on plastic drive cogs, which wear or distort after time. I guess it remains to be seen whether this suffers the same problem. The reviews on the US site are enthusiastic, but none of them seem to be from people who have used them for any length of time.

 

On the other hand, most of the more expensive types have some element of plastic or nylon cogs AFAIK? So it may be down to the type of plastic used? Or perhaps the way in which the force is transmitted via the cogs?

 

As for removing springs from turnouts, I cannot see anything which mentions this for these motors. As a rule, it is advisable to remove them for slow speed motors, but I don't think it is essential? The potential with the spring in place is that the force changes as the point moves across and that might give you a stuttering movement instead of a smooth one. But these points appear to use 100mA to move, instead of the usual 15mA, so maybe that power would negate the problem, if the connecting linkage wire is stiff enough? I have always removed mine when motorising.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Mike Storey

[Butler Henderson]

While I don't want to dissuade you from that decision, I'd like to point out that MERG servos can accommodate up to four micro switches.  They bolt onto the MERG servo bracket and are operated by the servo arm. 

Four switches could be used for any or all of...

• Supply power to a live frog
• Provide route indication to a control panel
• Control a related accessory (e.g. a signal)
• ?

I use an extra switch to control the second point of a crossing, for example.  That is, the control panel switches the first point, which in turn switches the second point.

 

The signals would be at the end of the end of the interlocking so I cannot quite see how using servos would work; using an analogue point motor its easy to ppower it through conatcts on other point motors and relays. The MP1 looks to me to be small enough so as to be arranged to drive the rod mechanism to the signal directly without needing any cranks etc.

[Mike Storey]

The signals would be at the end of the end of the interlocking so I cannot quite see how using servos would work; using an analogue point motor its easy to ppower it through conatcts on other point motors and relays. The MP1 looks to me to be small enough so as to be arranged to drive the rod mechanism to the signal directly without needing any cranks etc.

 

Indeed, that is one big attraction of the MP1 or MP5, in that the direction of movement can be changed from lateral to vertical simply by changing the hole used for the connecting wire. I won't need that personally, but I can see how simply it would work for semaphore signal operation.

[ejstubbs]

Indeed, that is one big attraction of the MP1 or MP5, in that the direction of movement can be changed from lateral to vertical simply by changing the hole used for the connecting wire.

 

I don't see anything in the instructions that explains how that can be done.  Could you elaborate?

Edited November 12, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Mike Storey]

I don't see anything in the instructions that explains how that can be done.  Could you elaborate?

 

I have been trying to find the photos that shows this much better than I can explain, but in vain, so here goes.

 

You can insert the control wire either from the bottom or the top of the lug, in two positions (for different wire thicknesses).

 

The normal configuration is for underboard use, with the control wire sticking up through the board in the normal fashion to work the point from underneath.

 

For surface operation, you bend the wire 90 degrees at one end, just so that it fits in the hole at the short end (long enough so that tightening the screw will hold it). The long end will now move laterally to left or right, and, hey presto, you have a surface point motor instead of an underboard one. Because it moves linearly and is so small, there is no need to use any angle cranks etc. If the height is the same as the point, then you thread the wire into the hole underneath the lug, but if the track is up on ballast and the motor is lower, you use the top hole.

 

In the case of a semaphore signal, to avoid cranks, I would presume you mount the motor on its side, and then as for a surface mount, and select the movement distance, if it needs to be more than 3mm. But without one to play with yet, I am not sure if that would be the way to do it.

 

I hope that makes sense, but a picture is so much easier to demonstrate. When I get one, and get around to wiring it up on my test track, I will try to post some pics. Won't be until after Christmas at least. Got a couple of rooms to plasterboard and paint..... or so I am told.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Mike Storey

[Butler Henderson]

At 40mm long it struck me you could just mount it at ninety degrees to the baseboard to work a semaphore.

[Podhunter]

I cannot quite see how using servos would work

The servo is irrelevant.  The attribute of the MERG servo bracket I'm attempting to advertise is the plethora (if four amounts to a plethora) of micro-switches that it can accommodate.  If you want interlocking, then there's room on that bracket for an interlock switch that connects elsewhere.

[Butler Henderson]

The servo is irrelevant.  The attribute of the MERG servo bracket I'm attempting to advertise is the plethora (if four amounts to a plethora) of micro-switches that it can accommodate.  If you want interlocking, then there's room on that bracket for an interlock switch that connects elsewhere.

Think you misunderstood the point I was making. The interlocking is almost in place using the switches built into Cobalts for some points and relays on the circuity for the points worked by solenoids. From these it is simple to activate a motor driving the signals, and would be somewhat more complex using servos as some interface would be needed between the interlocked switched signals and the requisite driving connections to the servos.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Butler Henderson

[ejstubbs]

For surface operation, you bend the wire 90 degrees at one end, just so that it fits in the hole at the short end (long enough so that tightening the screw will hold it). The long end will now move laterally to left or right, and, hey presto, you have a surface point motor instead of an underboard one. Because it moves linearly and is so small, there is no need to use any angle cranks etc. If the height is the same as the point, then you thread the wire into the hole underneath the lug, but if the track is up on ballast and the motor is lower, you use the top hole.

 

In the case of a semaphore signal, to avoid cranks, I would presume you mount the motor on its side, and then as for a surface mount, and select the movement distance, if it needs to be more than 3mm. But without one to play with yet, I am not sure if that would be the way to do it.

 

I hope that makes sense, but a picture is so much easier to demonstrate. When I get one, and get around to wiring it up on my test track, I will try to post some pics. Won't be until after Christmas at least. Got a couple of rooms to plasterboard and paint..... or so I am told.

 

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

I thought you might have been referring to the pivoting actuating rod which is referred to on that US retailer's site:

 

 

As far as I can tell that's only provided with the MP5.  There doesn't seem to be much further info about it, though.

 

I have an MP1 on order.  I plan to give it an initial tryout on my test layout, if I can make the time.  If I manage to do that reasonably soon then I'll provide some feedback here.

[Mike Storey]

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

I thought you might have been referring to the pivoting actuating rod which is referred to on that US retailer's site:

 

 

As far as I can tell that's only provided with the MP5.  There doesn't seem to be much further info about it, though.

 

I have an MP1 on order.  I plan to give it an initial tryout on my test layout, if I can make the time.  If I manage to do that reasonably soon then I'll provide some feedback here.

 

Yes, the MP1 only has linear movement, whereas the MP5 has rotational and/or linear movement, according to the comparison chart on the US website. I can't quite see how you change from one to the other, but once we have one, I guess it will become obvious.

 

The UK supplier is only offering MP1 at the moment, but a French site here is offering both, and at a very good price. http://www.cdfinformatique.com/acatalog/MTB.html

[ejstubbs]

Well, I received the MP1 I ordered from DCC Train Automation yesterday, which was quick work, so kudos to them.

 

I've not had time to set it up on a layout with a point yet but I did a quick check on its operation with a 9V battery and some tester cables.  It's definitely a lot more compact than the Tortoise or Cobalt below-baseboard motors, and it clearly works in that it moves from side to side and stops at each end of its travel.

 

You have to get the polarity right, at least when powering it with DC: the COM terminal has to be +ve in relation to the two poz terminals.  Not a huge surprise, and shouldn't be any kind of problem in use so long as you get it right from the get-go.

 

You could definitely hear it in operation; I wouldn't call it intrusive but it's audible.  I wonder if it might be quieter with a higher voltage supply?  Conversely, it might resonate a bit on some baseboards - I'll have to see.

 

I did get a small sprue of parts with it that look a lot like what I took to be the pivoting actuating rod in the photo in my post #19.  However, there's no indication of how to use it - and you'd need an extra machine screw and nut to assemble it as shown in that photo, which isn't provided.  I suspect it's primarily provided because there's a spare eccentric pin on the sprue, which would be nigh on essential if you managed to mislay the original one while trying to adjust the throw (which process is a tad fiddly for fat fingers, but doable).

 

One thing that struck me was that, if you could source the additional machine screw and nut, you might be able to use the 'radial' arm to arrange for the actuator motion to be parallel with the rod, which might offer another way to use it as a surface mount motor, or to drive a semaphore signal, without having to bend the actuating rod itself as described by Mike in post #15.

 

I can't find any instructions online as to how to set up the radial actuation on the MP5.  Maybe it's more or less obvious when you have one in your hands.  From the documentation that is available the MP5 seems to be more flexible in the wiring options it will support - and of course it has two polarity switches rather then just the one, and a plug-in connector which could presumably make wiring easier, or replacing a motor that's gone u/s.

 

I shall provide further feedback once I've had a chance to get it hooked up to a proper power supply and a working a point.

[Mike Storey]

I left it a bit late to order an example of a MP1 from DCC Train Automation, who have been "out of stock" ever since.

 

But I have found another French supplier, who has them in stock, and is cheaper, at 14.50 euros, than the one I originally posted, if anyone is still trying to get one:

 

http://trains.lrpresse.com/A-17602-moteur-d-aiguille-28x40-mm.aspx

[Butler Henderson]

The pair of MP1s I ordered 30.11 fell through the letter box today - presumably DCC Train Automation received too many orders to their email saying they were back in stock. Had not quite realised how small they are. The two cost £29.60 inclusive of postage which apparently currently equates to 33.56 euros which seems to me to be cheaper than the French supplier referenced above as they quote a minimum overseas postage of 12.5 euros which would make two from them 41.5 euros at least.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Butler Henderson

[Butler Henderson]

Had a play with the sprue of parts - completely undo and remove the rod grip from the motor. Fit the rod grip to the actuating rod using any suitable nut and bolt, fit the large washer in the fixing hole in the actuating rod and use the original bolt that held the rod grip to the motor to fix the actuating rod to the motor.

 

[ejstubbs]

Had to have a play with this myself to understand what you meant but I think I've got it now: the round-ended thingummy pivots around the bolt & washer, so with a fulcrum somewhere along metal rod the linear motion of the slider can be turned in to a sort-of rotary motion.  Would need some experimentation to find out whether it could be used for eg a level crossing gate.

 

UPDATE: According to this German online shop, there are now two new point motors from MTB: MP6 and MP7.  It seems that they are triggered by a pulse, like a solenoid point motor, but I struggle to make out any more details since the technical information is presented in jpg format which Google Translate won't translate.  I can't see anything on MTB's own web site about them.

Edited January 21, 2018 by ejstubbs