Hornby Patriot

[Black5]

I have a Hornby Rebuilt Patriot loco that I have need to remove the body on owing to a loss of drive between motor and gear on the centre driver.

My problem is I have been unable to get the body off the chassis as it is such a tight fit. Is there a difference in location due to this being a DCC fitted loco as apposed to the other one I have which is only DCC ready.

Iv`e removed all relevant screws as instructed in their servicing sheet and I can get the front end to pull down but it still wont budge when I try to pull the chassis forward. If I pull any harder something will break.

I wonder if anyone else has had the same problem or have I simply missed a hidden screw or maybe there`s a problem due to the fitting of the decoder.

 

Many thanks,

Cheers just now,

Jim.

[Brit70053]

Hi Black5/ Jim,

 

                       Just read your query as I was intrigued there'd been no replies as yet, which is quite unusual for this type of question on this forum.

I'm not familiar with the model and I don't want to be a doom monger, but I suspect this may be one of the model types identified by others as suffering from the condition variously know as Zinc Pest or Mazak Rot.

                       A table containing known affected models has been compiled and is 'pinned' at the top of this forum section (Modelling questions hints and tips)  under the heading : "Mazak Rot - the affected models list" (or something similar) You can search for this topic using the field at the top right of any RMWeb page.

                       What you describe as the problem, does I'm afraid reflect issues described for various models reported as having developed this defect :- The loss of drive from the motor to the drive gear could result from deterioration or fracture of the motor retaining housing (leaving the motor detached and revving merrily in thin air driving nothing) and the difficulty you're having removing the loco body, even with all the screws withdrawn, could well indicate that the chassis casting has expanded so that it is firmly jammed inside the loco body.  

 

                       I hope very much that I am completely wrong and this is not the case with your model, but I fear from the posts I have read about this topic, that this will be the case and I'm even more sorry to say that if it is, there will be very little if anything you can do about it. Once this deterioration begins it is irreversible and not repairable.

 

                       In your situation, I'd gird my loins, cross all my fingers and just try to pull the chassis out of the body, hoping not to damage the latter and being aware that crumbling metal could issue forth. From there it would be a case of damage assessment and searching ebay etc. for a replacement chassis or hoping that someone like Peters Spares may have invested in their own version of the motor retaining unit. (I know they have done this for some affected models, but can't be sure which ones).

                        Sorry to say I would not be optimistic about Hornby having spares, it seems they rarely do these days.

 

                        If you know the Rxxxx number it might help you in searching for the relevant topic(s) on here and knowing what to avoid in your efforts to find replacement parts if it comes to that.

 

                        Sorry to seem so pessimistic, but I suspect the situation will be what you are dealing with - good luck though.

 

                         Regards,

 

                                        John

 

Edit clarification

Edited November 11, 2017 by Brit70053

[Black5]

Hi John, many thanks for your reply.

I haven`t had another try at separating body and chassis yet, might try again tomorrow.

I take on board all your comments and it`ll be extra porridge and try till something gives and then see what`s left!

Many thanks for your help.

Cheers just now,

Jim.

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Jim

 

Here is a pdf file that lists the likely affected models.  

 

Sir Frederick Harrison and Planet I think are Patriots not Scots -  .

 

Ray

[Black5]

Hi Ray, thank you for your reply. Brit70053 had pointed that list out to me and I duly had a look at it.

I`ve since managed to finally remove the body and i`ve not seen any thing drastic on the chassis which suggests a degrading of the metal but I haven`t managed to get into the drive system so i`ve e-mailed Hornby for advice.

Hopefully they can help but it all looks a  very solid fit around there.

Meanwhile , thanks for your help and i`ll see what happens if Hornby reply.

Cheers just now, Jim.

[Brit70053]

Hi Jim / Black5,

              Pleased my 'diagnosis' doesn't appear to have been accurate and the outlook doesn't seem so drastic at this stage. I hope this bodes well for a satisfactory outcome for you and that you receive useful advice from Hornby.

             Hopefully you'll soon be posting details or photos of a successful solution.

 

              Regards,

 

                            John

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have only the one Patriot, but well remember the wrestling match to get the _******* mechanism out of the body shell. I ended up whittling the interior of the body around the footplate and wheelarches to clear the motor, in addition to replacing the wiring and removing copious quantities of black tack used around the motor, these features between them acting to near glue the motor end of the mechanism into the body.

 

Likeliest causes for no drive, if the motor is definitely running when power is applied:

The front motor clamp has slacked off, so that the worm isn't positively retained in mesh with the pinion.

The gear on the driven axle has split, so it no longer grips the axle sufficiently to drive it.

 

Investigate the axle gear first, the motor clamping is better on the Patriot mechanism than on many Hornby models from that period.

[trustytrev]

Hello,

      Excessive play where the intermediate gear turns in the chassis allows it to twist out of mesh with the worm, the axle gear, or both. Tightening the retainer cover is only a stop gap measure as the play in the journals increase beyond it having any effect eventually.

The mazac- rot of the chassis only adds to this problem by increasing the wear rate in the critical area. I ended up with a chassis that fell into multiple pieces due to my efforts to overcome the problem eventually. I now have a pair of Comet chassis frames which I intend to use as a permanent fix on my Patriot. I managed to get a Scot chassis working by packing the journals where the intermediate gear locates but it is not likely to be a long term fix for this issue as the mazac-rot continues to act on the chassis.

trustytrev.

[Black5]

Thanks to everyone who`s answered my query.

After contacting Hornby, I had an e-mail suggesting I returned the loco for them to have a look at and that is where things are at the moment. I await their suggestion.

One problem I find with the more up to date models is the high risk of breaking small fittings when trying to remove stubborn parts.It`s nice to have all this detail but when fingers are not so nimble, as in my case, it can lead to other problems.

Trustytrev, I too have a Comet chassis that`s going under a Mainline Scot but at the moment is being delayed due to ongoing work on the layout.

Oh to have more than one pair of hands!

Cheers just now,

Jim.

[DCB]

The cure for the mainline Scots and Patriots (and Manors and 43XX) was bin the motor and push it with a Tender drive.  My cure would be a 1960s Triang B12 Chassis re drilled to take the Patriot coupling rods with Markits wheels. Should last at least another 50 years.

[TerryD1471]

The cure for the mainline Scots and Patriots (and Manors and 43XX) was bin the motor and push it with a Tender drive.  My cure would be a 1960s Triang B12 Chassis re drilled to take the Patriot coupling rods with Markits wheels. Should last at least another 50 years.

Alternatively you could retro fit with the later Bachmann split chassis with the can motor, if you could carve away enough of the body to allow it to fit. I have heard occasional adverse comments on these chassis, but I have at least 8 which have gone into Mainline Jubilees, Scots, an Airfix Scot body and a Hornby Patriot body and my experience is that almost all work very well. I have just one duff one!

 

If you are going to the trouble of rehashing a B12 chassis, you might just make one out of 1/16 brass strip instead with an X04 motor. I know it's 1980s technology, but I have built at least 10 chassis this way and they all work well and are robust. Some are already 30 years old!

[Black5]

Hi Terry, thanks for your suggestions.

I have a Bachman split chassis parallel boilered Scot which I think must have been ex Mainline and after fitting a decoder and making tender pickups is one of my better runners. Mostly I think due to the weight and a certain amount of play in the running gear giving good wheel to rail contact. I certainly would have a go at another one.Rather than bypass the older models, with a bit of work you can have a pretty reasonable model.

 

Cheers just now,

Jim.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Using the split chassis: their suitability depends how much you run them in my opinion. Lightly used, fine. I would wear them out in a few years, by polishing off all the plating essential for good contact in the conduction path; but I am one of those loons who has a model railway to operate the models, every day possible. Positively I have never had a failure of the can motor that Bach used in most of their split chassis product, and have banked them for re-use as motor replacements. (Not that anything from the last 17 years of RTR production, or the Mashimas in my various kit chassis, have shown any sign of failing...)

[Black5]

Hi 34,

I`m afraid I seem to spend more time trying to build things than running sessions at the moment. My layout is an end to end mpd so running is pretty light anyway. At the moment i`m trying to find a decoder suitable for a Jamieson kit that is quite heavy and uses a Romford Bulldog motor. All this is going on while I wait for a reply from Hornby regarding my Patriots problems.

[STRAT'71]

I have just purchased Patriot R2364 Bunsen, sold as 'new', which suffers from this issue. Metal lump has expanded, and gear cover broken.

I have returned it 

Plenty of these on ebay. Buyers beware.