Peco small radius points and PL10 motors

[intotheditch]

I'm having a bit of trouble with Peco code 100 small radius points. They are the electrofrog version with PL10 motors and PL13 frog polarity switches fitted. The motor is wired with the Peco harness and I have a Centre OFF SPDT switch to operate the point.

The motors are attached directly to the points via a hole in the base board.

 

The issue is that they will usually only throw one one way.The point will not throw to the branch direction.

 

I have tried:

Different motors with different points to see if there was a fault with any individual piece of equipment. All motors work individually and the same motors work perfectly with the medium radius points I have.

A CDU to give a pulse boost to the throw action. The same result, the point will not throw to the branch direction.

Alignment - I looked carefully at the alignment of the motor to the point but making adjustments makes no difference.

 

Anything else I can try?

Could it be the point blades are too stiff to move?

 

 

[DCB]

Have you tried reversing the connections on the motor to test the switch and the wiring harness. If it starts throwing the other way...

[seahorse]

I've not used the harness myself, but I have looked up the picture. It should be green to two contacts one one side of the motor, and red and black on the other side.

 

Which two colours have you linked to your spdt switch? It needs to be red and black.

 

Confession time - I have a pl-11 . As a true Swallows and Amazons fan, I wired it as red for point set to left (port) , and green for right (starboard) . It would only change left. As a last resort I looked up the instructions and found that it should switch between red and black. It now works ok

[michaelp]

I've not used the harness myself, but I have looked up the picture. It should be green to two contacts one one side of the motor, and red and black on the other side.

 

Which two colours have you linked to your spdt switch? It needs to be red and black.

 

Confession time - I have a pl-11 . As a true Swallows and Amazons fan, I wired it as red for point set to left (port) , and green for right (starboard) . It would only change left. As a last resort I looked up the instructions and found that it should switch between red and black. It now works ok

 

 Black is connected to two contacts on one side of the motor and its the Red and Green wires go to the switch, that is how mine are wired and they work fine.

Edited November 16, 2017 by michaelp

[10000]

Can not comment about the Peco wiring harness because mine are all soldered on with wire from 100m spools but in my experience only going one way is usually down to incorrect wiring. 

Red should be correct so check the green and black

[kevinlms]

Can not comment about the Peco wiring harness because mine are all soldered on with wire from 100m spools but in my experience only going one way is usually down to incorrect wiring. 

Red should be correct so check the green and black

The problem comes about due to 2 reasons.

 

1/ Peco can't make up their mind!

 

Take a look at the instructions on Peco's website.

 

PL 10  No colour scheme given

 

https://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/PL-10%20Series%20Instructions.pdf

 

 

PL-11  GREEN is shown as the centre or common.

 

https://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/PL-11%20Instructions.pdf

 

 

The harness shows GREEN as the common

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/52058/Expo_Drills_Tools_28070_Point_Motor_wiring_Harness_Suitable_For_Peco_Point_Motors_PL_10_/StockDetail.aspx

 

 

2/ HOWEVER

 

With the Hornby version of a virtually identical point motor, shows BLACK as the common.

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Hornby+point+motor+wiring&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=XKeR-aEzeJ0V8M%253A%252CcOBSJ4JpHZK8PM%252C_&usg=__IHJil0-eLc06qdrULG0iss1KgDU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwij_taopMPXAhUHG5QKHXEiAEAQ9QEILDAB#imgrc=XKeR-aEzeJ0V8M:

 

The wiring harness for Hornby (sold by people like Expo), show the same configuration.

 

 

So which one is correct?

 

I think the answer has to go to Hornby. Why because they have used that colour scheme since Tri-ang days, when they first introduced their colour light signals and used red for the red light and green for the green light, leaving black for the common. Entirely logical (except if you're colour blind, I suppose). Points were wired the same, with red & green for left & right and black for the common.

 

Whereas as Peco have only worried about colours recently. Historically, they just showed the 3 wires and no mention of colour.

 

 

No wonder people get confused!

[ianLMS]

Anything else I can try?

Could it be the point blades are too stiff to move?

 

If the point blades freely move by hand, then it shouldn't affect the point motor operating it. If you note a lot of resistance when you move them, something might be stuck (ballast, spring, paint etc)

 

Have you followed www.brian-lambert.co.uk guide on wiring point motors etc? His guide was essential when I wired up my layout and still refer to it - covers both DC and DCC.

 

Does the PL-13 switch move freely when you move the tie-bar? They can get stuck and would prevent the point motor from working fully.

Thanks and good luck!

 

Ian

Edited November 16, 2017 by ianLMS

[Butler Henderson]

Common is green also on the PL11 side mounting point motors. Sounds to me its a case that the black has incorrectly been wired up as the common. I had the reverse, wondering why a Hornby motor would not work properly, I had wired it with the green incorrectly as the common.

[newbryford]

As the OP says, he's tried different points and the motors work fine, so there's not an obvious issue with the wiring. Unless it's a long wire of small gauge.

 

I tested some Peco Settrack points a few months ago with a CDU and they definitely required more oomph to move them one way than the other. Although the CDU would move them individually, it struggled in one direction when a pair were wired as a  crossover.

The solution was a bigger capacitor.

The other thing to look out for when using a CDU is to make sure the voltage is high enough - feeding them from 12vDC is not ideal.

 

There may be some merit in "backing off" the over-centre spring by moving back the cover that holds it in place.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[intotheditch]

I've not used the harness myself, but I have looked up the picture. It should be green to two contacts one one side of the motor, and red and black on the other side.

 

Which two colours have you linked to your spdt switch? It needs to be red and black.

 

Confession time - I have a pl-11 . As a true Swallows and Amazons fan, I wired it as red for point set to left (port) , and green for right (starboard) . It would only change left. As a last resort I looked up the instructions and found that it should switch between red and black. It now works ok

 

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I have tried all of them including switching around the wiring in case I'd got it wrong.

 

The net result was that I could not solve the problem until I removed the spring on the point. After I did this the point motor would throw both ways as you would expect as there is no spring to overcome. I have one more small radius point to fit on the layout. I'll post again if I get a problem with this one as well.

[Silver Sidelines]

Good to hear you have a solution.

 

I have never removed the over centre spring but I have backed off the adjuster that came with the older versions of the point.  I was going to ask if you had tried taking a motor off and rotating it through 180 degrees.  I have had similar problems in the past with medium / long radius points and came to the conclusion that the bent metal frame used by Peco to house the motor does not always centralise the motor beneath the point - or more simply it needs reshaping.

 

Ray

[kevinlms]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I have tried all of them including switching around the wiring in case I'd got it wrong.

 

The net result was that I could not solve the problem until I removed the spring on the point. After I did this the point motor would throw both ways as you would expect as there is no spring to overcome. I have one more small radius point to fit on the layout. I'll post again if I get a problem with this one as well.

It sounds like the applied voltage is a little too low. You stated in your opening post that you have a CDU. What input voltage does it have and is it AC or DC? What is the output voltage - this will of course be DC?

[DCB]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I have tried all of them including switching around the wiring in case I'd got it wrong.

 

The net result was that I could not solve the problem until I removed the spring on the point. After I did this the point motor would throw both ways as you would expect as there is no spring to overcome. I have one more small radius point to fit on the layout. I'll post again if I get a problem with this one as well.

With no spring there is a good chance the point blades will move under trains and cause derailments, I would suggest finding what the issue is unless the spring carrier having been pushed too tightly towards the tie bar was the original cause of the problem.

[intotheditch]

It sounds like the applied voltage is a little too low. You stated in your opening post that you have a CDU. What input voltage does it have and is it AC or DC? What is the output voltage - this will of course be DC?

 

Hi I was using the 15V DC output on a Hornby select controller to test the motors and to power the switching of points when I conducted running tests after track was laid.

[intotheditch]

With no spring there is a good chance the point blades will move under trains and cause derailments, I would suggest finding what the issue is unless the spring carrier having been pushed too tightly towards the tie bar was the original cause of the problem.

I'll certainly be careful with the remaining point to look at that.

My general attitude will be to eliminate the small radius points. I've no problem at all with the medium radius.