Jack P Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Instead of simply bugging Graham with my modelling questions, I thought I'd move my questions into a thread, in-case anyone has the same. I have a few in regards to the WD 2-8-0'd in 1946-1947: Did they have the two upper disc/lamp irons fitted, if so, where? Were the buffer housings painted red to match the beam, or were they black like the LNER ones? What font was the numbering on the side in (and as an aside, if it't not Bulleid, which I suspect it's not, where can I get transfers?) Is there anything else, or any stand out differences I need to know about the few of these locos that ran on the southern before I proceed to re-number my LNER one? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Instead of simply bugging Graham with my modelling questions, I thought I'd move my questions into a thread, in-case anyone has the same. I have a few in regards to the WD 2-8-0'd in 1946-1947: Did they have the two upper disc/lamp irons fitted, if so, where? Were the buffer housings painted red to match the beam, or were they black like the LNER ones? What font was the numbering on the side in (and as an aside, if it't not Bulleid, which I suspect it's not, where can I get transfers?) Is there anything else, or any stand out differences I need to know about the few of these locos that ran on the southern before I proceed to re-number my LNER one? Regards According to my reprint of a Ian Allan British Locomotives 1948-50 book, the following 2-8-0 WD Class had shed plates in the 70 range of numbers i.e. Southern Region. 90107, 90127, 90142, 90164, 90194, 90213, 90216, 90226, 90234, 90247, 90254, 90257, 90267, 90317, 90359, 90375, 90389/90, 90408, 90552, 90556, 90558, 90562, 90564, 90566, 90570, 90604, 90641, 90669, 90671, 90678 and 90702. As to buffer beams, the LNER may have painted them black but now its British Railways, and my thoughts are they would be red. Also the Southern Region would have fitted them with the two extra lamp irons on either the smoke box door or it's surrounds. You will have to refer to photos to confirm that statement along with choice of fonts etc. I hope this what you wanted. Regards, John. Edited November 19, 2017 by Judge Dread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Instead of simply bugging Graham with my modelling questions, I thought I'd move my questions into a thread, in-case anyone has the same. I have a few in regards to the WD 2-8-0'd in 1946-1947: Did they have the two upper disc/lamp irons fitted, if so, where? Were the buffer housings painted red to match the beam, or were they black like the LNER ones? What font was the numbering on the side in (and as an aside, if it't not Bulleid, which I suspect it's not, where can I get transfers?) Is there anything else, or any stand out differences I need to know about the few of these locos that ran on the southern before I proceed to re-number my LNER one? Regards The LNER was the only company to buy any of the WD engines and renumber/reletter them. The others were all on loan from the ministry and retained WD livery/lettering. The SR had 50 engines on loan: 77007, 77030, 77052, 77056, 77059, 77062, 77074, 77086, 77090, 77094, 77098, 77101, 77103, 77108, 77122, 77150, 77180, 77205, 77226, 77256, 77259, 77270, 77286, 77296, 77311, 77321, 77340, 77355, 77359, 77379, 77444, 77460, 77481, 77485, 70811, 70853, 70878, 78531, 78569, 78596, 78597, 78666, 78688, 78705, 79199, 79203, 79207, 79210, 79262, 79281 but some of these they only had for a month or two before nationalisation. Edited November 19, 2017 by asmay2002 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) I googled "WD 2-8-0 southern railway" and it came up with these. wd 2-8-0 southern railway I doubt many are actually pre-nationalisation, but they may be of help. Edited November 19, 2017 by jonny777 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted November 20, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 20, 2017 The Southern had WD 2-8-0s on loan in 1943/4 (briefly) and also again from 1946 onwards. They went via Brighton works and had the upper 2 lamp irons added to either side of the smokebox door and also on the tender rears. I used Bambi staples on my model of 78531 (as based on a picture from 1946) below to represent the lamp irons They usually came out of Brighton works in plan black with white 7xxxx numerals. At least one, 79203 is pictured, having left Brighton early 1948 with numbers and British Railways lettering in Southern Sunshine style! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Indeed 50 were taken out of store from the WD Richborough dump from the beginning of 1946, to near the end of 1947, all had been transferred away from the Southern Region by the end of 1951, most lost their WD numbers for the 90xxx series 1949 - 50. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Dread Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 The Southern had WD 2-8-0s on loan in 1943/4 (briefly) and also again from 1946 onwards. They went via Brighton works and had the upper 2 lamp irons added to either side of the smokebox door and also on the tender rears. I used Bambi staples on my model of 78531 (as based on a picture from 1946) below to represent the lamp irons WD 78531_2.jpg They usually came out of Brighton works in plan black with white 7xxxx numerals. At least one, 79203 is pictured, having left Brighton early 1948 with numbers and British Railways lettering in Southern Sunshine style! Very nice Graham as we have become to expect from you. According to my Ian Allan 79203 became 90670 and went to 73C Hither Green. It's a great pity that none of the UK locomotives were preserved. I quote the Wikipedia entry.. One WD 2-8-0 has survived. Vulcan Foundry works No. 5200 was repatriated from Sweden to the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. It was SJ number 1931. It was overhauled to its original condition, finished in 2007, which involved building a new cab and tender, become BR "No. 90733". After test runs, 90733 ran its first passenger train on Monday 23 July 2007. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I'm going to disagree with Graham_Muz and say that the extra lamp irons at the front end were fitted to either side of the smokebox door itself, rather than on the rim of the door as the photos of Graham's loco seem to show. There are quite a few photos around of the Southern-allocated WDs with discs in one or other of the mid-height positions and all the ones that I have seen support my viewpoint. It would also, of course, have been much easier to have drilled through the smokebox door itself to provide the fixing bolts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted November 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2017 Indeed a number were so fitted with the lamp irons on the smokebox door itself so pays to work from photographs. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack P Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) If you click here and here You can see two different types of smokebox mounted lamp irons, I have decided to model the ones which look to be the slightly offset type, that you might find on Schools locos. The one in that picture was allocated WD No: 77090. Thanks for all the help so far guys, and Graham, you are probably the most useful southern resource! I will be sure to update with a picture when it's complete! Edited November 22, 2017 by Jack P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Indeed a number were so fitted with the lamp irons on the smokebox door itself so pays to work from photographs. I had wondered whether there were variations, particularly as I couldn't see you getting it wrong, but when every photo that I could quickly find happened to show the smokebox door mounted variety (and there was clearly logic in mounting them on the door) I began to assume that that was the norm. I wonder whether the variations are time related, wartime allocations of WD-owned locos on loan as against allocations of BR-acquired locos in the late-1940s. Unfortunately, although I lived at Hither Green, I am just too young to remember them there and photos from that era are, quite understandably (post-war shortage of film), rare. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 If you click here and here You can see two different types of smokebox mounted lamp irons, I have decided to model the ones which look to be the slightly offset type, that you might find on Schools locos. The one in that picture was allocated WD No: 77090. Thanks for all the help so far guys, and Graham, you are probably the most useful southern resource! I will be sure to update with a picture when it's complete! Given that both of those photos are of renumbered locos in BR livery do we know for sure that they relate to the 1946-7 period. In other words are there any photos of locos with SR lamp irons in WD not BR livery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack P Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 Given that both of those photos are of renumbered locos in BR livery do we know for sure that they relate to the 1946-7 period. In other words are there any photos of locos with SR lamp irons in WD not BR livery? In short - no. I'd be using some modellers licence here, but the one i'm referencing, the lamp irons look like SR ones being the slightly offset type. It's also hard to reference any SR allocated tenders, so the location is again a guess. (unless graham can advise otherwise) With such little reference material for the time frame i'm after, it's hard to pin-point an exact configuration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 The Southern had WD 2-8-0s on loan in 1943/4 (briefly) and also again from 1946 onwards. They went via Brighton works and had the upper 2 lamp irons added to either side of the smokebox door and also on the tender rears. I used Bambi staples on my model of 78531 (as based on a picture from 1946) below to represent the lamp irons WD 78531_2.jpg They usually came out of Brighton works in plan black with white 7xxxx numerals. At least one, 79203 is pictured, having left Brighton early 1948 with numbers and British Railways lettering in Southern Sunshine style! Some of the locos overhauled at Brighton definitely had numbers in Bulleid style - including on the tender rear - TWO were, indeed, lettered 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' to match but this was painted over after a few days as they remained W.D. propery at the time ......... info from contemporary Railway Mag and/or Observer ( which I haven't got in the office, unfortunately ). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack P Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 Some of the locos overhauled at Brighton definitely had numbers in Bulleid style - including on the tender rear - TWO were, indeed, lettered 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' to match but this was painted over after a few days as they remained W.D. propery at the time ......... info from contemporary Railway Mag and/or Observer ( which I haven't got in the office, unfortunately ). Was this pre 1948 or post? Because if it's pre 1948 that's perfect. Also, possibly when you have said publication to hand, you could confirm if it tells you which? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Was this pre 1948 or post? Because if it's pre 1948 that's perfect. Also, possibly when you have said publication to hand, you could confirm if it tells you which? I have actually seen it stated in print that such-an-such a locomotive or three carried 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering ( or was it just their new numbers ? ) before 1948 ............................................ pull the other one ! ......... I'll see if I can track down the WD info for you .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack P Posted November 28, 2017 Author Share Posted November 28, 2017 I have actually seen it stated in print that such-an-such a locomotive or three carried 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering ( or was it just their new numbers ? ) before 1948 ............................................ pull the other one ! ......... I'll see if I can track down the WD info for you .... I would really appreciate that because i'm struggling to find appropriately sized numbers for the cabside, It looks like the HMRS SR Bulleid sheet has the coach set numbers, which would be the correct size, but are in yellow. The BR sheet has the same ones but they look to be in more of a cream colour. If I could just use the sunshine numbers that would save me the hassle! If not, does anyone know of an appropriately sized number that I could obtain from somewhere? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I would really appreciate that because i'm struggling to find appropriately sized numbers for the cabside, It looks like the HMRS SR Bulleid sheet has the coach set numbers, which would be the correct size, but are in yellow. The BR sheet has the same ones but they look to be in more of a cream colour. If I could just use the sunshine numbers that would save me the hassle! If not, does anyone know of an appropriately sized number that I could obtain from somewhere? The 1948 Railway Observer is still proving elusive ( I believe it's available on CD - but mine's on paper ..... in a pile somewhere ) but from other sources I've found 77030* & 79199 which appear to have numbers in 'Sunshine' style ( under a layer of grime so the shading's not very conspicuous ) plus 79203 & 79281 ex-works at Brighton with full 'BRITISH AIRWAYS' tender lettering and 's' prefix : a note on the back of my print of 79281 states that it was the fourth loco - including indigenous Southern types - to receive those markings in January 1948 though, as I've said above, they were inappropriate for the W.D. locos on loan and were soon painted out - mid March if I remember rightly. * on a down passenger train ; Wandsworth 14/6/47 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kubes Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 "Ive found 77030* & 79199 which appear to have numbers in 'Sunshine' style ( under a layer of grime so the shading's not very conspicuous ) plus 79203 & 79281 ex-works at Brighton with full 'BRITISH AIRWAYS' tender lettering" Perhaps destined to be transferred to ER to pull the Flying Scotsman? Kubes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 "Ive found 77030* & 79199 which appear to have numbers in 'Sunshine' style ( under a layer of grime so the shading's not very conspicuous ) plus 79203 & 79281 ex-works at Brighton with full 'BRITISH AIRWAYS' tender lettering" Perhaps destined to be transferred to ER to pull the Flying Scotsman? Kubes I was wondering who'd be first to spot that ............. well done, Pike ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Nothing to do with re-numbering, or the position of lamp irons; but I have found snippets in the Railway Observer. "The 6.40pm local Ashford to Folkestone was taken by WD 2-8-0s from 30/5/46 to 13/6/46. This must be the first occasion that a WD has worked a passenger train in the Eastern Section. 79210 was the engine on 6/6/46, 79281 on 30/5/46, 79201 on 31/5/46; the load being a 4-car set. " (From RO July 1946). If I find any other mentions and someone finds them useful, I will post them here. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 I would really appreciate that because i'm struggling to find appropriately sized numbers for the cabside, It looks like the HMRS SR Bulleid sheet has the coach set numbers, which would be the correct size, but are in yellow. The BR sheet has the same ones but they look to be in more of a cream colour. If I could just use the sunshine numbers that would save me the hassle! If not, does anyone know of an appropriately sized number that I could obtain from somewhere? See https://www.cctrans.org.uk/products.htm for :- Sheet BL32 - End numbering transfers for BR (SR) Bulleid and Mk.1 coach sets. Four numbers provided for each set. Available in white, cream or yellow; please specify when ordering. Numbering for sixty sets. (Coach running numbers available on Sheets BL141 & BL142). 2mm., 3mm., 3.5mm. & 4mm. scale price is £7.50 Regards, John Isherwood, Cambridge Custom Transfers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 "On 15/9/46 WD 2-8-0 77062 worked into Eastleigh on duty 103 (a freight duty from Feltham) and was the first appearance of a 2-8-0 since the dispatch of the class to the Continent" RO Oct 1946. "WD 2-8-0s 77052/6/9/62 and 77359 are on loan and attached to Feltham. 77052/9 and 77359 have worked into Eastleigh and on 7th November 77062 worked the 2-50pm Southampton Terminus to Eastleigh passenger train". RO Dec 1946 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now