brossard Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Great news that Slaters are bringing back their 4mm kits. I've made quite a few in my time and thought they were very good. Wonder if the Coopercraft kits will also come to Slaters. The 7mm Coopercraft kits did. I've moved on to 7mm now and have built a number of Slaters kits in that scale - great stuff. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Would it be worth suggesting that the various pitfalls be pointed out in the revamped instructions - particularly for the Midland 9ft wheelbase wagons, the issue of the solebars and headstocks not ending up in the same plane? I can't imagine they'd want to modify the moulds for these 40-year-old kits. I don't have any particular connection to Slaters, I just had a little correspondence with Dave last year reminiscing about the O gauge model of Monsal and Millers Dales that used to be at the front of the old shop. The wagon kits came up in conversation and he gave me some of the background and the fact that they were hoping to take them back in house. My recent correspondence has just been by way of a follow up. I have no idea how well or not such a suggestion might go down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted December 16, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2017 Wonder if the Coopercraft kits will also come to Slaters. The 7mm Coopercraft kits did. The 7mm CC kits went to Slaters as part of the deal the two companies did, one doing 7mm the other 4mm. I think you've got two hopes of Slaters taking on the 4mm CC kits, Bob and none. Bob's dead. They'd need to wrestle the specially adapted (and broken) injection moulding machine from Mr Dunn's fingers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I am not sure if this is connected, but I noticed the Ian Kirk Southern Railway kits are back in production(Ex-Ian Kirk is the name), with I assume a new manufacturer. Hopefully other kits might find a new home. Easier for Slaters to re-do their own models, and presumably they have either sorted out the legal side, or are confident enough that CC could not challenge them. I believe CC owed them money so Slaters are in a better position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I am not sure if this is connected, but I noticed the Ian Kirk Southern Railway kits are back in production(Ex-Ian Kirk is the name), with I assume a new manufacturer. Hopefully other kits might find a new home. Easier for Slaters to re-do their own models, and presumably they have either sorted out the legal side, or are confident enough that CC could not challenge them. I believe CC owed them money so Slaters are in a better position. I believe that Coopercraft didn't have the Southern kits as they were part of the Colin Ashby range. I think Colin also had some of the Kirk wagon kits that haven't reappeared. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I thought CC had the Colin Ashby models, sorry muddling them with the Mailcoach ones.That's the trouble with many of the old ranges, they get spread out across many different people. I know some tend to be a bit critical of older models, but for the majority of modellers, they are OK, and something is far better than nothing. In the mean time I am pushing ahead with my own 3D printed models, and I do have the working diagrams for the LNER coaches(in effect the same ones which CC use on their website, but from publications I bought). I wonder which of the articulated sets would be the most popular? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mike Bellamy Posted December 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2017 "Yes we are re- introducing the 4mm range, we are having to re order boxes and re do the instruction sheets as they all went to Paul Dunn." I think you've got two hopes of Slaters taking on the 4mm CC kits, Bob and none. Bob's dead. They'd need to wrestle the specially adapted (and broken) injection moulding machine from Mr Dunn's fingers. Some time ago I heard an unsubstantiated rumour that the Salters 4mm tooling had never left Derbyshire. As was mentioned in the other Coopercraft topic, POWSides continues to produce kits using Slaters mouldings - in fact this quote is on their website (but undated) and shows that they cannot be getting them from Coopercraft. We have secured a direct line of supply for Slater's 4mm scale private owner wagon parts and having now had our first delivery our dispatch times will soon be returning to normal. We have sufficient parts in stock to be able to supply most of our range for the foreseeable future. The following are just some thoughts based on guesswork and not any knowledge of the situation . . . . but could it be the case that the damaged machine was specifically designed for the Coopecraft models and not Slaters . . . . . Slaters (for whatever reason) retained the tooling for their 4mm range . . . . . could Slaters have been planning to do 'sub-contract' production for Mr Dunn . . . . . . was there a clause in the business agreement that has allowed Slaters to continue production for direct sales to POWSides . . . . . has the business agreement so far prevented a reintroduction by Slaters but David White's email quoted above indicates that this period may now be over. All rumour and guesswork - who knows what might happen . . . . ? ? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham456 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) My understanding is that the fact that slaters continued production of the wagons with second set of mounds after the sale or deal with CC was at the bottom of the legal row between CC and slaters the expense of which is why CC can't afford a new moulding machine Could be wrong of course as I haven't heard slaters side of the story Edited December 17, 2017 by Graham456 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 I think that Mike may well have the facts right. The marketing of the 4mm and 7mm ranges may have been "exchanged" but production remained at the original location. I have also been told - by someone who would know - that Paul Dunn's moulding machine would not accept the moulds he did take over from elsewhere and that in modifying it/them he failed to get production going again. So it would appear that he may only be able to supply the plastic kits that were already in his range and those items that are manufactured outside, such as brass etchings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham456 Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) I have also been told - by someone who would know - that Paul Dunn's moulding machine would not accept the moulds he did take over from elsewhere and that in modifying it/them he failed to get production going again. s. You might be on to something there? I wonder if the modifications stuffed up the injection moulding machine for the Cooper Craft molds as well ?All round living half way from where cooper craft started and are now (three miles eather way).....its a huge shame as I do enjoy building wagon kits and have far to many ! That's made ones not to do's Edited December 17, 2017 by Graham456 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Jackson Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Does this mean that we can hopefully get a steady supply of NER hoppers again? If so this is great news! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Slater's PO wagon moulding have always been available from the likes of POW Sides. So the agreement between Slater's and CC was likely to have been about marketing rather than production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Slater's PO wagon moulding have always been available from the likes of POW Sides. So the agreement between Slater's and CC was likely to have been about marketing rather than production. If that is/was the case, why has CC never been able to supply Slaters 4mm non-PO wagon kits and coaches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted December 17, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2017 If that is/was the case, why has CC never been able to supply Slaters 4mm non-PO wagon kits and coaches? The most obvious answer would seem to be that the two firms are in legal dispute with one another. "I won't ...... unless you stop ......" "There is no legal requirement for us to stop ...., so if you are not going to ....., we won't ......." All done of course with the aid of solicitors and the nicest of legal language. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) Because the companies have been in dispute at least since Paul Dunn took over CC. If he couldn't or wouldn't supply Slaters with his 7mm mouldings, Slater's wouldn't supply him with their 4mm mouldings. Edited December 17, 2017 by billbedford Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) I hope the lawyers are happy - the dispute is now approaching its tenth anniversary. Edited December 17, 2017 by Miss Prism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) I hope the lawyers are happy - the dispute is now approaching its tenth anniversary.“Jarndyce and Jarndyce drones on. This scarecrow of a suit has, over the course of time, become so complicated, that no man alive knows what it means. The parties to it understand it least; but it has been observed that no two Chancery lawyers can talk about it for five minutes without coming to a total disagreement as to all the premises. Innumerable children have been born into the cause; innumerable young people have married into it; innumerable old people have died out of it.” Seemed appropriately accurate! Edited December 17, 2017 by Clearwater 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Yes, Dickens would have loved it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
george stein Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Watching all this from the USA. Very sad. It seems that Peco have absorbed Parkside 4mm wagons, ModelMaster transfers are withdrawing their line of PO decals. And, of course, the perennial worries about Hornby. I have picked up most of my CC and Slater's wagons on the USA "OO" section of ebay. (There really is an OO section!!) So far, Powsides and, yes, Robbies Rolling Stock, transfers keep going,but I will miss the wonderful range if the ModelMaster transfers disappear. As new card building firms (e.g. Scalescenes) are developing consequent of "download & print," I wonder if many of the old PO wagon schemes might be in what (in the USA) is called "public domain" or non-copyright. So clever guys (preparing for post-Brexit) might start a company that could prepare A4 sheets of PO schemes to download for a few quid. We print them ourselves on readily available decal paper. (I get the first free sample.) Just a suggestion. And Happy Christmas to you all. I really enjoy this site. George North Carolina Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted December 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 17, 2017 As from today Cooper-Craft have taken over the Slater's 4mm wagon kits from C&L. THey will now include Alan Gibson wheels for the complete kits. They will be available from all the current stockest of Cooper-Craft once they have worked through the system and from my own web site. There is a problem with the moulding machine and as the moulds are none standard the machine was adapted to take them so it is not just getting spar parts of a shelf to fix it. First the bad news that Slater’s have decided that as they have the Cooper Craft 7mm kits they will do everything to stop me doing their 4mm range so unfortunately it has turned legal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 The previous owners of the moulds were able to produce kits from them. I believe Paul Dunn was offered the opportunity to buy the machine they were used on, but declined. The machine in question was pretty much a standard, small, low cost machine. It seems his attempts to modify them/his existing machine were not successful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 I also understand there was/is a disagreement about monies owed relating to the original agreement. No idea about the rights and wrongs of this as I have only heard snippets from one side. The great thing is that it looks as if the kits will be available again - which is all that is really of interest to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Latest score: Midland Marauders 2 Western Wanderers 0 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted December 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 17, 2017 Some time ago I heard an unsubstantiated rumour that the Salters 4mm tooling had never left Derbyshire. As was mentioned in the other Coopercraft topic, POWSides continues to produce kits using Slaters mouldings - in fact this quote is on their website (but undated) and shows that they cannot be getting them from Coopercraft. Brossard was pondering whether Slaters would be able to take over the old CooperCraft ranger, my response was regarding that, nothing to do with the status of the Slaters kits. The following are just some thoughts based on guesswork and not any knowledge of the situation . . . . but could it be the case that the damaged machine was specifically designed for the Coopecraft models and not Slaters . . . . . BIB - I'm pretty sure from the threads on here, that that is the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Latest score: Midland Marauders 2 Western Wanderers 0 Is this in extra time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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