Rapido LMS/GWR/BR Gunpowder Vans announced!

[The Stationmaster]

If Guy didn't build any in Wolverhampton and Daimler didn't build any in Coventry, I don't need any.....  

 

OK, OK - I'll stop.

 

In all seriousness, our 3D prints can't replicate the fine detail that will be on the final model, and these were tossed together by our new young engineer, Ms. Chen, and put in one of the Warley boxes. We weren't even planning to announce them but they looked good enough to do a soft launch. Judging by the response so far at the show, it was a very good decision.

 

-Jason, several thousand miles from Warley

 

Thank you Jason - now would Bill like some more ideas about what to do next?  Sorry, I'm sure that Bill actually knows exactly what to do next, just remember (he will) that the numbers came in various other forms as well as those starting with 43

 

Edit to correct typo

Edited November 27, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting thread. It does seem incredible in the current climate that explosives were carried in a normal freight train , clearly marked explosives!

 

Can someone give details of how these wagons were used? Would they have been included in normal freight trains , were there any restrictions or rules. Like marshal away from Engine etc.

 

I vaguely remember Wrenn producing gunpowder vans, I think from the original Hornby Dublo Model. They were liveried Standard Fireworks . Would that livery been for real or is it one of the many fictional brightly coloured liveries that Wrenn brought out in the 70s?

 

Simples(ish).

 

these wagons were used to convey certainClasses of explosives - mainly (if not entirely in later years) commercial explosives.  Accordingly they could be found in trains, including local freight trips, in areas which served explosives factories (where they would be shunted to/from exchange sidings by the train engine), in freight trains between areas of explosives productions and areas of explosives use - such as mining and quarrying.  It is important to remember that the Explosives Regulations forbade the storage of 'bulk' quantities of commercial explosive at locations where the stuff would be used - instead it had to be stored at special magazines remote from the sites of use and would be issued from the magazine to sites of use in small quantities.

 

I don't know if any magazines for commercial explosives had private sidings but in the area where I worked inwards gunpowder wagons were dealt with in an ordinary full loads yard (although it only dealt with one other traffic by the 1970s) and the magazine owners collected it from that yard in their road vehicles (which I have no details of).

 

So subject to proper marshalling you would see Gunpowder Wagons in ordinary freight trains inc;uding local trips but you should not have seen them being received in quarries other than for unloading to a remote magazine (and I'm not sure if even that was legal).  So if you run freight trains you can have Gunpowder Vans in them - in the right place in the train.

[dibber25]

Thank you Jason - now would Bill like some more ideas about what to do next?  Sorry, I'm sure that Bill actually knows exactly what to do next, just remember (he will) that teh numbers came in various other forms as well as those starting with 43

 

As a GWR modeller, Bill knows exactly what ROLLING STOCK to do next! (CJL)

[Corbs]

Ahhh excellent. I have 2 quarries to serve on my railway!

[iak]

That's another set of instructions I won't need to write... C'est la vie.

 

Gunpowder Van Snapshot.JPG

There are enigneering drawings for the LMS D2093 version in Official drawings of LMS wagons No.1 by Wild Swan. The panel spacing is the same on these and the BR ones, which as far as I can tell are the same as the LMS ones except for changes in the brakegear. As has been suggested the GWR ones were different and by the look sof it the LNER ones as well.

 

The wheelbase for these was 9' (apart from the final batch of BR ones built with BR clasp brakes which were 10') not 10' as someone mentioned earlier.

 

Fun prototypes.

 

Justin

Underframes?

A watching brief is called for maybe....

[Mark Saunders]

Underframes?

A watching brief is called for maybe....

 

Also applies to the BR 24.5 ton HUO hopper!

[Enterprisingwestern]

Also applies to the BR 24.5 ton HUO hopper!

 

All boils down to whether you prefer metal over plastic, me. I'm a non ferrous type of guy!

 

Mike.

 

Edit, I'm having trouble with my r's.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Enterprisingwestern

[Porcy Mane]

I'm a non ferrous type of guy!

 

Iron deficiency. That what happens you reach the the wrong side of sixty five.

 

P

[Covkid]

Hi Guys

 

This may seem a daft question but would a gunpowder van be in a pick up goods I can't really see why not but I'm not really sure that a pick up good would go into an explosive factory due to spark although would there be areas where a pickup good would take a wagon so far then a fireless loco would take it where needed

 

Thanks

Alan

 

 

Long long long ago a handful of destinations from Cookes at Penrhyndeudraeth

 

Blairhall, Bogside, Callerton, Coxlodge, Carmarthen, Wednesbury.

 

There were plenty of others but my grey cells are not full adjusted, but I am pretty sure many of these types would be local trip services and would have often used any old wagons as barriers, as did the Cambrian goods. Here is a link to the "Coast goods" on it's way from Pwllheli.

 

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/ph1971-pwllheli-goods.jpg

 

Notice only one vanfit between the loco and the GPVs. This will be because the gunpowder vans will be empty and on their way to Penrhyndeudraeth for loading. The "Coast goods" was timetable to go through to Pwllheli on a Tuesday and it was considered easier to shunt at Penrhryn' on the way back from Pwllheli / Porthmadog. The loaded traffic from Penrhyn' will be more "rigourously barriered".

 

Nice little train to recreate

Class 24 at Portmadoc with a plate wagon, a GPV and a brakevan

https://www.flickr.com/photos/63164772@N05/15042715401/

Edited November 27, 2017 by Covkid

[Covkid]

This thread is a useful resource of course

 

  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43516-movement-of-gun-powder-vans/

[Covkid]

Some more bibliography about GPVs.

 

On Cambrian Lines by Derek Huntriss - a nice colour Michael Mensing shot of Std class 4 75047 climbing Talerddig with 20 wagons and a Stanier brakevan. The 17th and 18th are GPVs. Too distant to identify but one has a light grey roof so maybe a new BR build. 

 

Cambrian Coast Express by Stephen Austin, page 87 and the "Up Goods" is in Towyn adjacent to the Tallylyn Railway 2nd December 1965. Std 4 75004 is releasing plenty of steam to the atmosphere and the mixed train has a fitted van then three GPVs then an assortment of other wagons.

 

The Cambrian Lines (Rails in Wales series) be Peter Johnson has several photos of green and blue Sulzer type twos hauling trains with GPVs in.   

[Enterprisingwestern]

Iron deficiency. That what happens you reach the the wrong side of sixty five.

 

P

 

Oi, not quite yet, come back next year!

 

Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

Is your workbench made out of class 25s?

Class 24's. 3/10 for Loco recognition.    

 

 

I have done axleboxes and springs instead though, but I I doubt they sell in anywhere near the same quantities...

The South Pelaw boys should keep you going with orders for brake van castings.

 

Never realised I had even photographed a GWR Z4 Gunpowder Van until this been announced...

Ooh, thats nice. Looks like the W irons have been changed for the BR type just going to prove...

 

 

now would Bill like some more ideas about what to do next?

CONFLAT L; CONFLAT L; CONFLAT L; CONFLAT L;     

 

Simples(ish).

 

 It is important to remember that the Explosives Regulations forbade the storage of 'bulk' quantities of commercial explosive at locations where the stuff would be used - instead it had to be stored at special magazines remote from the sites of use and would be issued from the magazine to sites of use in small quantities.

Collieries had on site magazines. These in some instances were built only yards from main buildings but with the addition of Blast Bunds (Embankments). Sometimes there was no bunds/walls. I've annotated this Britain from Above view of Vane Tempest (Seaham) colliery to indicate the magazines at that colliery. If you're registered on that site you can zoom the image and see the construction of the magazines.

The explosives magazine at the colliery in the village were I was brought up in was slap bang in the middle of the colliery baths, the school field and the local allotments. Hows that for logic? Although to be fair the magazine was there before the school and the baths.

 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW045919

 

Although before my time, the colliery I served my apprenticeship at received Explosives & Detonators by rail and road until the early 1960's. It's explosive and separate detonator magazines were no more than tin sheds. I must dig out my Mines & Quarries Act(1954) to see what the law actually stated.

 

I don't know if any magazines for commercial explosives had private sidings

 

So if you run freight trains you can have Gunpowder Vans in them - in the right place in the train.

Although shunted by the LNER/BR, Nobels/ICI had there own sidings for their storage magazines at Black Callerton(Prestwick). You can see them on the 1961 OS map here. Scrolling the map south shows the magazines.

 

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/417663/571691/12/100954

 

Mick Simpson's currently building a modern Image layout based on the sidings for the cameo Challenge and Rowntrees Sidings EM layout is set a couple of miles back towards Newcastle.

This 1966 view shows a bit of shunting going on:

 

 

 

 

So subject to proper marshalling you would see Gunpowder Wagons in ordinary freight trains inc;uding local trips but you should not have seen them being received in quarries other than for unloading to a remote magazine (and I'm not sure if even that was legal).  So if you run freight trains you can have Gunpowder Vans in them - in the right place in the train.

There must have been amendments in the local appendix for the running of the Ponteland pick up. 1950/60's photographs show there could be more than the regulation seven in a rake and loaded, they were always next to the Loco with no barrier wagon. The barrier wagons came later. 

 

I have a series of transparencies of the Gunpowder vans derailed in Newcastle Central and all of the assembled railwaymen attending the scene look pretty laid back about the whole affair.

 

Ahhh excellent. I have 2 quarries to serve on my railway!

Or you could build a rail served explosives manufactory that was established on a disused quarry floor.

 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW026600

 

P

Edited November 27, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[Porcy Mane]

Nice little train to recreate

 

 

Ditto with this oft referred to photograph, but it's worth a repeat here.

 

1022 at Fairwood Road Junction - 7th May 1976 by Arnie Furniss, on Flickr

 

and in colour:

 

https://flic.kr/p/DLUEQY

 

 

Oi, not quite yet, come back next year!

 

 

Some paper round you had then.  He, he, he.

 

P

Edited November 27, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[Porcy Mane]

Blairhall, Bogside, Callerton, Coxlodge, Carmarthen, Wednesbury.

Unless there was another Coxlodge, Callerton & Coxlodge was the same destination.

 

P

 

Edit.  In gunpowder terms. Separate railway stations. (Shuffles of to find handbook of stations to see which station handled the receipts).

Edited November 27, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[Covkid]

Unless there was another Coxlodge, Callerton & Coxlodge was the same destination.

 

P

 

 

Thanks you for that. Everyday is a school day !!!!

[hmrspaul]

Then there were the 1940's wartime build private owner that some survived till the Royal Ordanance Factory at Bishopton till it closed!

 

see Paul Bartlett's photo's

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/rofbishopton

 

Mark Saunders

 

On no. 3 the outer panel is marginally wider than the inner panel. The centre line of the stanchion between the panels is 35inches from headstocks, the end of the inner panel next to the door is at 67 3/4 inches.

 

Paul

[iak]

Also applies to the BR 24.5 ton HUO hopper!

Easy now.....

Let's not be greedy.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

nom nom nom

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

Ditto with this oft referred to photograph, but it's worth a repeat here.

 

1022 at Fairwood Road Junction - 7th May 1976 by Arnie Furniss, on Flickr

 

and in colour:

 

https://flic.kr/p/DLUEQY

 

 

 

 

Some paper round you had then.  He, he, he.

 

P

 

That picture, of the train standing at Fairwood Jcn's Down Main Line Home Signal, illustrates all too well one of the problems with Gunpowder Vans in that the Marshalling Instructions and barrier wagon requirements changed, sometimes considerably, over the years,  

 

In this particular case the van was quite legitimately marshalled next to the engine as that was quite permissible at that date for certain movements of such vehicles - such as the one it was actually making as opposed to the one suggested in the original caption and in the caption to the linked colour photo  (and just as well actually as no doubt my head would have joined various others on the chopping block if it had ever come to light that a yard I managed had been ignoring the marshalling requirements for Dangerous Goods   ). 

 

The wagon was being tripped from Westbury to Frome to be unloaded in the goods yard there, wagonloads of explosives were not handled at Merehead Quarry as only limited amounts of explosives were permitted to be kept on the site in accordance with the then Regulations.  The traffic passed by rail to Frome from where it was taken by road to various magazines in the Mendips area.

Edited November 28, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[hmrspaul]

I never saw the at Frome. Quite interesting as Frome had a considerable Bitumen traffic which used naked flames to heat the wagons for unloading... Umm. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=frome

 

 

Paul

[Mad McCann]

If my experience with the production and delivery of Rapido North American prototype freight cars (see Northern Pacific wood box car) is any indication, it will be and extended wait for these to appear.

I really don't mind the wait if it's done well.

I'm down for some TEAs too.

 

D4

[Dunsignalling]

I never saw the at Frome. Quite interesting as Frome had a considerable Bitumen traffic which used naked flames to heat the wagons for unloading... Umm. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=frome

 

 

Paul

Presumably not on adjacent roads, or I think we'd have heard about it.

[Edwardian]

The GWR had about 100 gunpowder vans.

 

The GWR had about 80000 open wagons.

 

I'd hazard a guess as to what was more likely in an average pickup goods.

 

The news that Rapido is working on another steam-age model, any steam-age model,  is always likely to be goods news.

 

Nevertheless, it is, to my mind, odd that the popular often differs from the typical. Would not one of the more populous GW 5-planks have been more logical?  Well, yes, but logical choices are not always the popular choices. That is not always a bad thing.  An express engine from 1874 is hardly a logical choice for most modellers, but a lot of us are very happy to see Rapido debut with the Stirling Single.

 

Naturally my thoughts turn to whether I could utilise such a wagon for any planned project.  A 5-plank? No problem, and in numbers.  A gunpowder van?  Well, I am not sure.  In my case the potential slot would be on the South Devon mainline in the 1930s (West of Dainton tunnel). But, one of the fun things about releases, for me, is that they prompt research, so I'll no doubt enjoy exploring whether I could work one of these in. 

 

Anyway, it is a further exciting development, and, I assume, Rapido will not confine itself to a single wagon type.

 

What else might be considered in due course, I wonder?

[Enterprisingwestern]

I never saw the at Frome. Quite interesting as Frome had a considerable Bitumen traffic which used naked flames to heat the wagons for unloading... Umm. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=frome

 

 

Paul

 

Personally, I was more worried about the naked flame in the tail lamp!

 

Mike.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Personally, I was more worried about the naked flame in the tail lamp!

 

Mike.

Probably not lit as it was in daylight and wouldn't be seen.