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2251 with Dean Tender





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#1 Quarryscapes

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 22:57

If the current pre-release picture is to be believed, 32-304a No. 2251 in GWR green which is yet to be released will have a Dean 3000g tender from the City class. The descriptions I've seen variously describe it as Collett or Churchward type tender. Can anyone confirm it will actually have the Dean 3000g type when released? 





#2 Miss Prism

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:23

The tender shown in the Bachmann pic of its proposed 32-304a is a Dean 3000g. Although some of the tenders of this style were built in Churchward's time, Churchward did not do a 3000g design, so they are usually called 'Dean' 3000g tenders.
 
2251-70 ran initially with Dean 3000g tenders with GREAT WESTERN insignia. (I do not know what insignia was applied to 2271-80, completed 1934, they might have appeared in shirtbutton.) These Dean 3000g tenders were not however of the same type of Dean 3000g tender running with CoT, and were inherited from withdrawn locos. (All Collett Goods built before 1939 had second-hand tenders.)
 
A few Collett Goods ran with modified CoT type Dean 3000g tenders later in their lives.

Edited by Miss Prism, 13 February 2018 - 13:10 .

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#3 ndg910

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:00

Has the 2251 had an updated chassis or is it still a split chassis? My Mainline versions are long in the tooth but fighting fit but this might be one to get.

#4 coachmann

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:10

Will the forthcoming Tender be different to the one shown here with long spring hangers.....?

WEB 2251.jpg


Edited by coachmann, 26 November 2017 - 11:12 .


#5 Miss Prism

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:22

Will the forthcoming Tender be different to the one shown here with long spring hangers.....?

attachicon.gifWEB 2251.jpg

 

Yes. The one in your picture is a Churchward 3500g top on a late Collett underframe.

 

This is the new Bachmann 32-304A:

 

bachmann-2251-32-304a.jpg

 

I do not know whether the loco chassis has been revamped.


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#6 WD0-6-0

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:32

Has the 2251 had an updated chassis or is it still a split chassis? My Mainline versions are long in the tooth but fighting fit but this might be one to get.


These have modern chassis, I'm not sure what the DCC situation is but it's definitely not a split frame chassis

#7 coachmann

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 12:19

It will be interesting to see what Bachmann have done about DCC after seeing their seeing the enclosed plug under the cab of their 'Hall' and 'Modified Hall' chassis. It was a case of DCC ready only if you dont want sound. I did fit sound to one and it entailed drilling holes at an angle into the plugs metal enclosure in order to get leads in via plug & socket from the Tender mounted speaker.

 

2251's with a Dean Tender appear to be a rare bird on Google. Anyone got any ideas. I can't find any on the ex Cambrian lines with this tender.


Edited by coachmann, 26 November 2017 - 12:58 .


#8 Quarryscapes

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:20

It will be interesting to see what Bachmann have done about DCC after seeing their seeing the enclosed plug under the cab of their 'Hall' and 'Modified Hall' chassis. It was a case of DCC ready only if you dont want sound. I did fit sound to one and it entailed drilling holes at an angle into the plugs metal enclosure in order to get leads in via plug & socket from the Tender mounted speaker.

 

2251's with a Dean Tender appear to be a rare bird on Google. Anyone got any ideas. I can't find any on the ex Cambrian lines with this tender.

 

There are a good few Cambrian engines with this tender, I've already made a model of 3208, you can also have 2204, 3201, 2222, 2217, 2271, 3200, 2233 and no doubt others.  

 

The DCC equipment in the Collett is the same as the 57xx - in the top of the boiler, the weight being chopped down to accommodate it. They haven't been split framed for many years, though you can fit a split frame body on a new chassis and vice versa, the tooling is still basically the same. (The new ones have sprung buffers, better chimney and no moulded number plate on the cabside). 



#9 coachmann

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 15:33

There are a good few Cambrian engines with this tender, I've already made a model of 3208, you can also have 2204, 3201, 2222, 2217, 2271, 3200, 2233 and no doubt others.  It's funny how things work out, but I was looking in a book for a 3

Thanks. It's funny how things work out, but I was looking in a photo album for a suitable number for a Croes Newydd 38XX in the mid 1950's and happened across 0-6-0 No.2233 running off the branch from Gobowen into Oswestry in 1959. It has a Dean Tender and I note 2233 is on your list.  


Edited by coachmann, 26 November 2017 - 16:03 .


#10 81C

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 16:25

Yes. The one in your picture is a Churchward 3500g top on a late Collett underframe.

 

This is the new Bachmann 32-304A:

 

attachicon.gifBachmann-2251-32-304a.jpg

 

I do not know whether the loco chassis has been revamped.

It doesn't look like it, if they had surely they would have put the correct size wheels on it. :scratchhead:


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#11 Quarryscapes

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 16:53

It doesn't look like it, if they had surely they would have put the correct size wheels on it. :scratchhead:

 

Is your eyesight that good that you can see a missing 0.66mm of diameter on a moving loco?



#12 phil-b259

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 17:30

Has the 2251 had an updated chassis or is it still a split chassis? My Mainline versions are long in the tooth but fighting fit but this might be one to get.

 

The loco got an updated chassis well over a decade ago!

 

Along with the Maunsell N class, the Collets goods was one of the first of Bachmann's 'Blue Ribbon' offerings that ditched the split chassis setup. Throwbacks to the previous mainline incarnation were still visible however including the moulded plastic hook arrangement for the tender coupling (the tender simply being the previous Mainline offering) and a lack of any valve gear under the boiler, plus the lack of a DCC socket.

 

Slight tweaks have subsequently - for example so as to facilitate the use of the ROD tender, and the most recent releases may have provision for a DCC chip. It will be interesting to see whether the forthcoming version has the loco and tender permanently coupled as without tender pickups as with all the electrical gubbins inside the loco on previous releases there are no wires to worry about.


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#13 The Great Bear

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:04

 

Slight tweaks have subsequently - for example so as to facilitate the use of the ROD tender, and the most recent releases may have provision for a DCC chip. It will be interesting to see whether the forthcoming version has the loco and tender permanently coupled as without tender pickups as with all the electrical gubbins inside the loco on previous releases there are no wires to worry about.

 

​At least the wire free arrangement allows one to easily swap tenders (like the real thing!), for instance I'm using the ROD tender with the last Collett goods I bought for something else. Without any tender pickups my 2251 still runs well. 

 

I hadn't appreciated when pre-ordering one of these new 2251s the tender was different and a bit rare. Following Miss P's post 2256 (Banbury) should fit the bill, though whether it kept this smaller tender to post war years quite possibly not. It is something different I suppose, applying Rule No.1.



#14 Miss Prism

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:11

The problem is not so much with Bachmann's loco wheel diameter. The primary 'visual height' of such a loco is usually set by the footplate, and Bachmann's Collett Goods footplate is about 1mm too low. Look at the position of the buffers on the front bufferbeam. This has produced a raft of consequent inaccuracies throughout the elevation of the loco superstructure. All originating from Mainline of course. (Compare with the Oxford DG case, where a slightly oversize wheel has resulted in a badly oversized splasher but a reasonable footplate height.) I think most modellers would generally accept a slightly undersize wheel if other superstructure height dimensions and relative shapes are reasonably conformant.
 
Fortuitously, Bachmann has discovered that its inaccurate Collett Goods footplate height matches that of its Dean 3000g tender platform (at about 4'3.5"), which sort of reflects, visually, the prototype matchups. Tender loadings would affect its rideheight, to some extent, loaded tenders weighing typically twice the unloaded value. I suspect the GWR jacked up its Dean 3000g and Churchward 3500g tender platforms, by packing boxes to springs, to give a better match for the Collett Goods loco, as well as the usual jiggling about with the shovelplate and cabfloor height, which was the key height interface, i.e. to keep the fallplate level. This jacking up affected the tender buffer height as well of course, but a raise from the early-era 3'4.5" norm to the later standard 3'5.5" was a benefit, and thus lessened the amount of conversion work involved. The Collett Goods footplate difference to that of the later Collett 3000g tender, which also has a standard (at least for the 'small' tenders) platform height, and which I think were not jacked up, can be seen in:
 
The Collett Goods tender situation is particularly complex, with ostensibly 'standard' 3000g types (for example) having at least 4 different types of chassis. I'm currently thinking about illustrations of this matter, but please be patient.
 
Tender cascading and swapping was far from a simple process on the GWR, although a high level of standardisation was maintained as always. Well, some of the time.

Edited by Miss Prism, 27 November 2017 - 09:44 .

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#15 coachmann

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 21:05

I removed the Oxford Dean Goods splashers and there was no need for them to be oversize. Simply removing 1mm from the bottom of the four splashers remedies the situation except for the cabside splasher, which of course required different treatment. This loco is not alone in having oversize splashers (Bachmann 3F and 4F, GWR Pannier Tanks etc for examples)..... But I go along with Miss Prisms observations. The 2251 simply did not capture the essence of the prototype and if it is the same 'days of yore'  body moulding with thick boiler bands, I dont hold out much hope. 


Edited by coachmann, 26 November 2017 - 21:08 .

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#16 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 22:30

Do we know if Bachmann have moved the 'chip' location to the tender? Back in 2013 when the DCC ready model was introduced the engine suddenly lost 40 gm of weight from the boiler. It was not good if you were digitally orientated.

8462237584_83c7eb9c20_c.jpg
Bachmann 22xx - DCC Ready front, original rear

Edited by Silver Sidelines, 26 November 2017 - 22:31 .


#17 Quarryscapes

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 22:47

The Bachmann running plate IS correct height, but the buffers are wrong. Not that I am in any way concerned with any of this triviality, I just wanted to know the tender in the pic is what I will be getting if I preorder one! I'm not overly happy with my tender for 3208, would be much simpler to repaint and tweak the new 2251 if it arrives as expected. 

 

FULLDSXT0803.jpg


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#18 Adrock

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 19:50

The Bachmann running plate IS correct height, but the buffers are wrong. Not that I am in any way concerned with any of this triviality, I just wanted to know the tender in the pic is what I will be getting if I preorder one! I'm not overly happy with my tender for 3208, would be much simpler to repaint and tweak the new 2251 if it arrives as expected.

FULLDSXT0803.jpg


Really nice set of 0-6-0s there, lovely weathering. Which tender is it that you have on the left there? Is it a Bachman ‘Manor’ tender or is it one from the Hornby Dean Goods?

#19 Quarryscapes

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 19:16

Really nice set of 0-6-0s there, lovely weathering. Which tender is it that you have on the left there? Is it a Bachman ‘Manor’ tender or is it one from the Hornby Dean Goods?

 

Ir's a Mainline Dean Goods body (with separate dome and filler added) and running frame with modified Comet chassis and Gibson wheels. I'm not 100% happy with any bit of it except the paint job! 



#20 Adrock

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 22:05

Ir's a Mainline Dean Goods body (with separate dome and filler added) and running frame with modified Comet chassis and Gibson wheels. I'm not 100% happy with any bit of it except the paint job!


Ah I thought it might be - I asked as I have done the same job on my 2251! Looks great to me, superb weathering job.
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#21 sjrixon

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 17:33

I've pre-ordered one. My mainline one is showing it's age and I'm not sure I can be bothered to convert it to dcc.

#22 Quarryscapes

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 17:42

Ah I thought it might be - I asked as I have done the same job on my 2251! Looks great to me, superb weathering job.

 

Thanks, I do like weathering stuff - you should see the grot on my 16mm locos! 



#23 Happy Hippo

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 17:46

It will be interesting to see what Bachmann have done about DCC after seeing their seeing the enclosed plug under the cab of their 'Hall' and 'Modified Hall' chassis. It was a case of DCC ready only if you dont want sound. I did fit sound to one and it entailed drilling holes at an angle into the plugs metal enclosure in order to get leads in via plug & socket from the Tender mounted speaker.

 

2251's with a Dean Tender appear to be a rare bird on Google. Anyone got any ideas. I can't find any on the ex Cambrian lines with this tender.

3208 is the loco you want.

 

 

 

Last of the 2251 on the Cambrian section, she was transferred up to Llandudno Junction on snow plough duties.

 

Pictures of her on the Cambrian section are in Wales and the Welsh border counties editions of the Bradford Barton series of books on GW steam

 

3208correctedrs.jpg

 

Photo at Llandudno taken from John Hobbs' website and shown here merely to save trawling through the many pictures, but it is worth a look

 

http://www.6g.nwrail...nhobbspage.html


Edited by Happy Hippo, 02 December 2017 - 17:53 .

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#24 Adrock

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 19:33

3208 is the loco you want.



Last of the 2251 on the Cambrian section, she was transferred up to Llandudno Junction on snow plough duties.

Pictures of her on the Cambrian section are in Wales and the Welsh border counties editions of the Bradford Barton series of books on GW steam

3208correctedrs.jpg

Photo at Llandudno taken from John Hobbs' website and shown here merely to save trawling through the many pictures, but it is worth a look

http://www.6g.nwrail...nhobbspage.html


I assume that’s the 3000g Dean tender as per the one attached to the Mainline Dean Goods? Rather than the 2500g version?

Did the 2251’s also run in BR days with the 3500g tenders as per the one attached to the Dukedog and the Manor? If so, Bachman using the tender from the Dukedog, with the DCC socket in the tender and the precious design full weight in the boiler, would be a good future option.

#25 Happy Hippo

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 23:47

3208 was defintiely fitted with the 3000 g tender as other photos from a less acute angle will confirm.

 

I am no expert on tenders, but would believe the 22xx series of locos never ran with anything smaller than a 3000 g tender.

 

Tenders fitted were:

 

3000 g Churchward style tender as seen in the Hobbs photo.

 

3000 g Collett Tender as fitted to the preserved 3205.  As far as I can ascertain the 22xx was the only class fitted with this style of tender.

 

3500 g Churchward 3500 g tender as fitted to 28/38xx, Moguls and Manors (plus other locos in their early years).

 

4000 g ex RoD tenders from withdrawn 26xx (Aberdare) locos.

 

I have no  photographic evidence to suggest  that a 22xx was ever fitted to a 2500 g tender.

 

Similarly, I have no photographic evidence to show that the 22xx + 4000 g ex RoD tender combination ever found it's way onto ex Cambrian metals.

 

Bachmann have produced a 22xx with Churchward 3500 g tender  in the past.  See:

 

https://www.ebay.co....74198600&crdt=0

 

However, I would suggest that Bachmann's 22xx  loco numbering with their loco tender combinations might be a bit suspect!!