Current Models Available in the Market Place today

[Markwalker67]

Bachman are going to retool class 170

Some time

[Dungrange]

I struggle to see the business model with some of the suggestions made. Where an ok model already exists, I am not convinced the sales will be there to justify a top-notch model.

 

Take the class 156. The Limby model had severe shortcomings, very severe. The same cannot be said for the current locos being suggested. Sure they could do with an upgrade, but will people pay the sort of money Charlie would have to charge if the existing model was still available at 1/2 the cost? One hell of a risk to take.

 

The competition could play nasty. Take the talk of a sealed beam peak. If Charlie were to do one, what chances Bachmann rerelease theirs? Likewise the Class 31 from Hornby...

 

I concur with the comment re sticking to multiple units. The competition is much weaker and you have a proven track record.

 

Roy

 

I have to agree with Roy.  I wanted to purchase a Hornby Class 156 when they produced one in First Scotrail livery, but I just couldn't.  The old Lima body wasn't bad and captures the prototype okay, but the under frame really let the model down.  When Realtrack announced the Class 156, my initial reaction was 'yikes, that's expensive' but then I decided to take the plunge and order one and even decided to make this my first DCC Sound model.  I've yet to take delivery, but I was impressed when seeing the sample on the DC Kits stand at a couple of exhibitions.

 

However, I'm not sure that any of the diesels mentioned in this thread are really in the same category as the Hornby Class 156.  I've got eight or nine Bachmann Class 66 locomotives and although they are not perfect, I'm certainly not going to sell them all to purchase Realtrack Class 66s at £200+ for an analogue model and £300+ for a sound fitted variant. I may over time, as funds permit, fit the Bachmann models with DCC Sound and/or upgrade the lights, but that will take time.  However, if you do decide to do a Class 66, I'd probably still purchase one.

 

If you stick to DMUs, as has been suggested, I'll have a Class 170 to the same standard as the Class 156, but this will be to supplement my Bachmann model rather than to replace it.

[Mike Storey]

I am not sure what you are looking for here Charlie?

 

SLW proved that a high functionality, relatively expensive (although with recent price increases it actually looks quite a bargain now) diesel loco, even one based on a prototype that had been done before, and still with a fairly limited geography and timespan (although arguable I suppose, but say, compared with a 47 or a 66).

 

You will get a list of our favourite locos, all of which you could have predicted. You obviously have a capital budget in mind, and need some more assurance about return on that investment. Do you also have a price bracket in mind, on which we might comment?

 

What is it we could say that would add to the knowledge you already have about the market???

[stovepipe]

The question was

 

What model 'Diesel Locomotive' which is on the market and available today in the UK, do you think could do with 'Replacing' ?

 

With:

 

Multi Functional DCC Lighting Features (Marker Lights/Cab/Engine Room)

 

SuperSound DCC Speaker System  (Not Hi End Sugarqubes/ I Phone Speakers)

 

DCC Diesel Smoke System

 

 

Not DMU, but Diesel Locomotive.

 

Not tell us what you think our business model should be, and whether you think we can make a return on it, but which locomotives do you think need replacing by better models.

[YesTor]

On current prices a Class 66 would be far more than that.    Charlie

 

I realize this is my viewpoint only but if produced to a truly high standard then I think the price would be worth it. 

[The Black Hat]

Charlie must know far more than us, how popular things like DCC Sound are and how the market is shaping up. As a result this new model looks really aimed at the detailed and excellent range of the market, by having a premium product and costs the higher price, but argueably worth it.

 

However, like others have said - the chance is that a high price leads to a lower volume of sales. I am relatively happy with by Bachmann class 66s and if that were the subject of choice (as I think its one of the most viable) then Id likely keep them, and buy ones to replace some, but not all. The price issue will also kick in, even if we are heading fast to a more Eurpoean modelling culture, with prices and preorders the new culture. I think such a model would be great and have no doubt that Charlie and the team would make a highly detailed model that like Dapols 68 would include all the sound and lighting controls for all possibilities at the push of a button. I think this model has given Charlie a heads up as to the potential of the market and think the feedback that controlling everything on a chip is great, but so too is the format on the sound-chip used.

 

As a result, that's what is bringing about the feedback on which model could be next and while we all produce ideas - the problem returns that some have been done before, like 66, 37 and Deltic. I have no doubt that a new locomotive by Real track would eclipse these with detail, and out perform the impressive digital Dapol 68. So now its a case of which model would sell and which one has the potential to keep the market interested for years to come, at a higher price, that's bound to rise further in future.

[The Black Hat]

Not tell us what you think our business model should be, and whether you think we can make a return on it, but which locomotives do you think need replacing by better models.

 

Yes but most of us have seen the bigger picture here - which is that it needs to be a model that has a sound business plan behind it, otherwise the massive investment wont be justified and at a higher price it wont sell. Meaning a loss and potential massive loss for Charlie which could jeopardise his business. That's something none of us want to see so we are offering debate, conjecture and opinion to try and give a balanced view and give more than a simple answer - which is usually the baseless "I want this model" and gives no further insight than a modeller wants that, with no further reasoning, or evidence to justify that it would be popular, and sell.

 

That's also why the "what model will a company​ announce next" threads descend quickly into random baseless wish-listing rather than predict what comes next a company makes after looking at what a company makes in its range, what the good sales have been on the market lately and what popular demand on forums and polls seems to indicate.

[Covkid]

 

The Bachmann 25 could be better but we all know who is going to do that.

 

 

 

 

Pray tell

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Yes but most of us have seen the bigger picture here - which is that it needs to be a model that has a sound business plan behind it, otherwise the massive investment wont be justified and at a higher price it wont sell. Meaning a loss and potential massive loss for Charlie which could jeopardise his business. That's something none of us want to see so we are offering debate, conjecture and opinion to try and give a balanced view and give more than a simple answer - which is usually the baseless "I want this model" and gives no further insight than a modeller wants that, with no further reasoning, or evidence to justify that it would be popular, and sell.

 

That's also why the "what model will a company​ announce next" threads descend quickly into random baseless wish-listing rather than predict what comes next a company makes after looking at what a company makes in its range, what the good sales have been on the market lately and what popular demand on forums and polls seems to indicate.

 

I completely agree. 

 

The model selected by Charlie needs to be a popular class of loco. A class of loco that will be appealing to a lot of people, with several liveries to model and adjustments/modifications that can be made to improve when compared against other models already out their. So my idea of 57/0s may not be a brilliant option as the number of liveries and locos to model are limited. However Class 37s, 66s and 150s all sound like brilliant ideas. After seeing the previous units that Realtrack have produced I bet that any of these classes of loco would be produced to an amazing standard. 

[Covkid]

My preference for DMUs would be the Park Royal (class 103) with the dull tungsten lighting and the exhaust rasp.  Covered a swathe of England and Wales from Watford to Liverpool and Paignton to Derby, albeit wider spread in green than blue. 

 

The real one that people are desperate for is the Swindon Cross Country. Plenty of variety from the 2 car Central Wales sets with headlights, but also as built with headcode boxes and multiple marker lights. The Inverness versions with extended brakevans and tablet catchers. Green, blue and blue / grey. Went everywhere from Weymouth to Inverness, and Yarmouth - Barmouth !!!

 

.

[Andy Y]

I'll tell you what needs replacing...

 

My microphone after you stuffed it in your crotch on Friday; nobody else will touch it now!

 

 

Filthy Yorkshire tyke!

[big jim]

[stovepipe]

Yes but most of us have seen the bigger picture here - which is that it needs to be a model that has a sound business plan behind it, otherwise the massive investment wont be justified and at a higher price it wont sell. Meaning a loss and potential massive loss for Charlie which could jeopardise his business. That's something none of us want to see so we are offering debate, conjecture and opinion to try and give a balanced view and give more than a simple answer - which is usually the baseless "I want this model" and gives no further insight than a modeller wants that, with no further reasoning, or evidence to justify that it would be popular, and sell.

 

That's also why the "what model will a company​ announce next" threads descend quickly into random baseless wish-listing rather than predict what comes next a company makes after looking at what a company makes in its range, what the good sales have been on the market lately and what popular demand on forums and polls seems to indicate.

 

But neither you or anyone else here is any position to assess the risks of the proposed venture or the size of the market on offer. Your conjecture is a baseless as any wishlisting. The only people who can assess and consider the risks are the OPs, and they have asked what locomotive would you buy if there was a better version than that currently available. They are not asking which models not available you would like - such as the class 06 or the 103 or the 106 or the 120 or whatever else has been suggested. Which models would you pay a premium to get a better version of, you know like the SLW class 24.

[wombatofludham]

The real minimum risk types that are likely to sustain a competing "definitive" or "museum quality" diesel loco, in the SLW Class 24 vein, must be the 37, 47 or 66.  The first two hugely popular, multiple liveries and a lifespan Methusulah would envy, the latter in multiple liveries and everywhere.  The numbers alone of each class must make it more likely that someone will buy at least one even if they have obsessively collected just about every version of the existing models however good they are.

 

For a first move into the OCD diesel collector's market a safe, steady bet must be the way.  And, as others have pointed out, the existing models of the 37, 47 and 66 are not perfection.

​Actually Realtrack OCD would be a good marketing brand, "perfection is our obsession..."

[AMJ]

Charlie doesn't need a microphone!

[Roy Langridge]

The question was

 

What model 'Diesel Locomotive' which is on the market and available today in the UK, do you think could do with 'Replacing' ?

 

With:

 

Multi Functional DCC Lighting Features (Marker Lights/Cab/Engine Room)

 

SuperSound DCC Speaker System (Not Hi End Sugarqubes/ I Phone Speakers)

 

DCC Diesel Smoke System

 

 

Not DMU, but Diesel Locomotive.

 

Not tell us what you think our business model should be, and whether you think we can make a return on it, but which locomotives do you think need replacing by better models.

Well that told me didn’t it. So much for this being a discussion forum.

 

Pretty much every current loco has been mentioned, so perhaps the thread should be locked so we don’t stray?

 

Roy

Edited December 1, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[MRDBLUE17]

I'll tell you what needs replacing...

 

My microphone after you stuffed it in your crotch on Friday; nobody else will touch it now!

 

CP_mike.jpg

 

Filthy Yorkshire tyke!

Andy,

 

Are you sure he’s not recording the new toilet sounds for the 142!

 

Charlie as to model to high spec I would say a 37 or 47 would be a good choice. Perhaps even doing a DRS 37/6 variant to offer something not currently available.

 

Cheers

Mark

[JDW]

It's an interesting question, and I have to say that I agree with some of the other comments that certain models - whilst not necessarily "top-notch" aren't so bad as to need replacing.  Things like the 170 or 220 for example are adequate, if not up to current standards, whereas the 156 is a clear cut above the previous Lima/Hornby model.  Whatever loco (or DMU) you choses, I'd agree that it has to either be something a bit niche like the 144, done really well, or something very mainstream which the market can support another model of - and even then, I'm not sure I'd be jumping up and down in excitement at another class 47 model no matter how different it was.  Jim's suggestion of a 91 is interesting but then you have the whole issue of it needing suitable stock, and Hornby's Mk4s are hardly in the same league, so would people buy it, would you have to then produce the coaches...?

 

So for DMUs, I'd suggest a 175 or 185.  For locos how about a 37/9 - ie with correct roof.  I don't think it's been done before, they have quite a following, there's a few liveries to go at, and the tooling could also be used for standard 37s too later on.  

 

EDIT - posted at the same time as MRDBLUE17 above, who mentions 37/6s - seems there's a few 37 niches to cover!

Edited December 1, 2017 by JDW

[Andy Mac]

What models would I replace with a high quality diesel...

 

Class 59..... new detailed model being slowly developed....

class 20’s.... dated model... i’d Suggest this as any replacement is going to be a marked improvement in all areas.....lighting, better mechanism/chassis, finer details...

 

Of the others being mentioned class 37/47, sorry, but not replacing my Bachmann ones, I think they are of a good enough quality standard (ok they are not quite 100%, but good enough). think vi trains had a reasonable crack at the 37/47 market, so I don’t subscribe to the view the market could support another model....

 

All the other classes are pretty reasonable representations, so not going to replace....

 

As for what i’d Like to see in new models.... easy dcc socket access.... good sound/lighting, a driver in the cab.... not interested in smoke units, I just don’t think they look realistic....

[YesTor]

As for what i’d Like to see in new models...  a driver in the cab...

 

Surely the most inept of us can manage that one ourselves?  

Edited December 1, 2017 by YesTor

[Legend]

The thing that’s going to distinguish these models is the electronic gubbins and smoke units etc. As folk have pointed out this means the cost of these is going to be higher. This does restrict the market to say the top 20% who must have ultimate fidelity and can pay for it. So there is a restriction there. To model a loco that is not mainstream would restrict that market even more , so something like a Park Royal 103 ot 57/0 really isn’t going to do it. I think you are stuck with the mainstream classes 25,37,47 and 66. As SLW is possibly going to develop the 24 into a 25 , I think that means 37/47/66.

 

I’m only an interested bystander, being at the other end of the market that runs DC and doesn’t need any of these things, but what I am appreciating is that there is a top end of the market that will pay . Who would have thought people signing up for 14 car APTs?. How big that market is versus the mainstream is the interesting point, but presumably Charlie with his experience of the 156 thinks it’s sufficiently large to sustain a model.

 

If I was a betting man I’d say 66 based on longevity( it’s going to be around for many more years) and the number of liveries that could be produced

Edited December 1, 2017 by Legend

[The Black Hat]

But neither you or anyone else here is any position to assess the risks of the proposed venture or the size of the market on offer. Your conjecture is a baseless as any wishlisting. The only people who can assess and consider the risks are the OPs, and they have asked what locomotive would you buy if there was a better version than that currently available. They are not asking which models not available you would like - such as the class 06 or the 103 or the 106 or the 120 or whatever else has been suggested. Which models would you pay a premium to get a better version of, you know like the SLW class 24.

 

What?  

​I, and others have assessed the risks of the project. We have put forward similar views that have been expressed. Firstly, the risk was checked that there are many classes of diesel locomotive already modelled and that the main classes have all be done to date. We then compared the tooling and abilities of all the various popular models against each other and then compared this further against the likely demand each class would have in the future, when some classes are withdrawn, others seen less and others still have a long working lifespan on the present rail network before then heading for preservation. This brought around the possibility of the engine likely to be a class 20, 37, 47, 55 or 66. Consensus is forming (​ergo​ not just my own views) that the best suggestion would be class 66.

 

While a premium locomotive would mean that a new one was done it would mean competing with this model that already exists but is likely to still be released by the main competitor. We all have purchased this model to date, some of us have built up a number of them, so then assessed the reliability of the product in the market place at the moment, and what could be improved upon it. Also, thirdly, to what standard it would need to be to be a more premium model and justify the higher price tag.

 

Then given the costings and price rises in the market, we wondered if we were ready to cash in our current models and replace them with the super deluxe version that Charlie is proposing. Some of us are really hesitating given we are generally happy with the models we have now and for all we known that the potential is there for a model to finally do everything that we want of it, the cost difference is likely to stop us wholly replacing our fleets, or even selling all and buying some. Some have mentioned keeping the ones we have and buying a few new ones. But would this be enough? We assumed, that this could be a risk to the project and thus debated it so that it would be brought to Charlie's attention.

 

The purpose of this thread is to debate and discuss. Locking it would deprive Charlie of the debate and responses he is obviously using partly to base his opinion on, as well as evidence he has seen from things like sales to the Dapol 68, and the way that model has been reviewed.

 

All of the above has been based on inspection of the products we have, our understanding of the market that we are part of, and a reasoned conjecture based on the information we have. Its not baseless - far from it. It's based on sound reasoning, appreciation of the issues at hand and finding it gratifying that we were asked for an opinion in the first place.

[JDW]

What models would I replace with a high quality diesel...

 

Class 59..... new detailed model being slowly developed....

class 20’s.... dated model... i’d Suggest this as any replacement is going to be a marked improvement in all areas.....lighting, better mechanism/chassis, finer details...

 

Of the others being mentioned class 37/47, sorry, but not replacing my Bachmann ones, I think they are of a good enough quality standard (ok they are not quite 100%, but good enough). think vi trains had a reasonable crack at the 37/47 market, so I don’t subscribe to the view the market could support another model....

 

All the other classes are pretty reasonable representations, so not going to replace....

 

As for what i’d Like to see in new models.... easy dcc socket access.... good sound/lighting, a driver in the cab.... not interested in smoke units, I just don’t think they look realistic....

 

Yes, I was thinking the same when I made my earlier post.  Certainly I wouldn't be replacing my 37s, 47s or 66s, which are a mix of Lima, ViTrains and Bachmann, with any new model no matter how good, as the ones I have are good enough for me, even if there are people out there with the resources to do so.  For exactly that reason, I haven't ordered any of the 156s.  I have a fleet of 9 in various colours, DCC fitted and mostly detailed to get rid of the Lima underframes.  I couldn't justify replacing them all, and just replacing one or two would highlight the differences between them and look odd.  Likewise, many are proposing a 66, which seems a sensible idea in that there are lots of them to model, and they'll be around for a while yet so will stay current.  That said, there's a lot of 37s, 47s, etc too that could be done.  We've had so many models of so many prototypes now that there's little new to go at, and so the market will no doubt be smaller.  I guess it's a toss up between something different, as per the 144s, which will appeal to fewer people but most of those who want/need one will buy it, or doing something like the SLW 24 which is beyond the reach of many and unneeded by others who have Bachmann ones but again, those who really want one will buy.  Which market is bigger, though?

 

The 37, 47 and 66 all seem good ideas, as far as they go, but I'm not sure I'd be able to get excited by a new version, as the extras they could offer (sound, smoke, etc) hold little appeal for me.  

[cal.n]

The way it was phased in the first post suggested it was a long way off in the future, if you were to announce a brand new 37 or 66 tomorrow, it may not sell. But when the 142 has been done and manufacturers are announcing more and more obscure prototypes, I think there will be room for a SLT-style 37 or 66.

You could be really nasty/clever and announce a 158?

Edit: just read the thread title, EXISTING models to be upgraded. In that case, if the main suggestions are 37, 47, 66, I (as a contemporary modeller) would lean towards a 66, but would buy a 37. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by cal.n

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

It's good to hear that other people share the same views as me regarding diesel locos that could be reproduced by Realtrack with improvements or modifications. 

 

For me newly tooled Class 37s would be brilliant. I have attempted to lobby with Bachmann and ViTrains through Rail Exclusive for the past couple of years for new Class 37s to be produced with new noses, wipac lighting etc including locos 038, 059, 069, 116, 218, 259, 301, 423, 601-612, 716 with no success. Bachmann have said that they will pass on my suggestions to the research and development team and Rail Exclusive simply were not interested. These locos have a few different noses and lighting arrangements which is probably why no manufacturer seems keen to produce them but I am certain that their is demand for these modern image 37s in a variety of liveries, noses and lighting arrangements. 

 

If these 37s were to be produced by Charlie at Realtrack it would be similar to the 144 locos produced. There are a limited number of 144s only 23 to be precise and even those are not all identical. Some are two cars and some are three cars. So I suppose they could be referred to as "niche". But the 144s sold well so I am certain that the above 37s would given the amount of trains they work and the stock that they work with. They would go very nicely with the Bachmann FNA Flask Wagons and the RHTT sets which are to be made available by Hattons exclusively during 2018. 

 

A few other people have also mentioned that they would like to see these same Class 37 locos produced in the previous comments which does show that their is some demand their. 

 

Personally I would buy as many of the above 37s that I could afford just because I have been wanting them for years but other manufacturers seem very reluctant to produce any of them. 

 

Also this thread isn't just about wishlisting. Charlie has specifically set up this thread and asked a question. Charlie is trying to understand what demand the market has for specific locos which is why he is asking for suggestions for future projects. This thread is about sharing and putting ideas forward, making judgements about what the market wants, is their a demand their to meet supply, providing reasoning as to why we think that certain locos should be produced and to allow Charlie to see through a forum what people want. 

 

The general consensus appears to be Classes 24, 37, 47, 66 and 150.  

Edited December 1, 2017 by DRS Crewe On A Mission