Can I have some help please?

[MrDobilina]

Hi guys.

 

I have been trying hard to create a nice little shelf layout in oo.

For now I’ll only have 5ft x1 to play with.

I have code 75 bullhead track as it prefer the look of it.

I have four turnouts- three way, small left, small right, small wye.

 

The issue I have is that I can’t quite find that sweet spot of interesting operation and scenery in such a small area.

 

I love the work of Chris Nevard with his brew street and fountain colliery layouts.

I’d love to create a similar style layout to his fountain colliery layout but I’m suffering from creative block.

 

Can someone please help me design something fun and interesting?

 

A few further general points:

I’m aiming at late 50s early 60s as I’ll have a Fowler 3F Jinty as my primary engine.

The area will be quite run down and in its later years

The layout can have one or two off scene areas that a cassette can connect to to permit rakes on and off the layout.

If an extra point is needed to compete a loop instead of one I already have that’s fine

The primary purpose of this layout is a small shunt puzzle with some realism

Edited December 10, 2017 by MrDobilina

[Rivercider]

I was very impressed by Julian Andrews layout Portwey, which might give you ideas to adapt or expand slightly.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81305-portwey/page-1

It occupies only 49" x 10.5", though when I was viewing it he said an extra 6" in the fiddle yard would have been useful.

 

cheers

[FPH 603]

Hmmm,

 

Your layout is only slightly larger than mine, which is a relatively small station terminus branch line station with a platform long enough to fit a three carriage train (excluding any locomotives pulling/pushing the train).

 

I used a three way turnout in my layout for switching into the two platforms of the station, the other going into a very short siding. If you intend on DCC, just keep in mind that you might want to have isolated track joiners in some bits, in case a train derails. This can short out the DCC, and if you have sound, it will stuff up and turn off. Most people get away with this but I think it's worth looking into. See my blog (in my signature) for details and maybe a bit of inspiration.

 

Regarding operation types, this depends on what you're interested in. A shunting puzzle is always a fun thing to make, and solve. I recall seeing a layout which was predominantly a yard, but it had quite a unique feature in it. A 'hump' was made at the start of the yard, where the one line starts and splits in to several sidings. This was made so the wagons could be pushed up, and rolled down into an allocated siding. This takes a lot of experimentation and patience though, but I think it would be well worth it. I'm pretty sure an uncoupling ramp was placed on top of the hump so the wagons can be simply roll down the hill and into a siding. The 'puzzle' aspect of it is switching all those junctions correctly to form the right sort of train.

 

Hope this helps!

Edited December 11, 2017 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[The Johnster]

As general and overall advice, as opposed to recommendations to study specific track plans and layouts, I would say that, once you have settled on an overall concept, stick with it.  You are already halfway there with the 1950/60s and the Fowler tank; this leads almost automatically to LMR, ex LMS Scottish Region, or Somerset and Dorset setups.  Next decision is about a type of location; are we having a small rural yard or somewhere heavily industrialised and urban, or perhaps a dockside setting?  Will there be a private siding to exchange traffic with?  How many locos are to be on the layout at once (this has wiring implications in DC)?  

 

Once you have settled this question, you will find that the rest falls into place to fit the concept.  Types of track layout, stock, buildings and facilities, as well as the general appearance you are going for, will simply suggest themselves to you.  Once you have laid and permanently fixed the track, this process will become even more 'auto suggestive' as you will be able to envisage how a proposed building will look, how it will affect the sightlines and lighting of the layout and so forth,

 

For operational interest, you may want to consider a 2-loco approach instead of a loop; Jinty arrives with train for sidings, pilot loco (Johnson 1F?) attaches, pulls stock back to release Jinty which goes off stage. 1F proceeds with shunting,  Maybe one siding is wrong way round and the Jinty has to re-appear to release the 1F. 

 

Many of these sort of layouts use a card system to determine where each wagon is to be positioned, and you can have cards that throw spaniards in the works by declaring one to be a 'cripple' occasionally, or an urgent requirement from Control for a shocvan or conflat might interrupt proceedings.  

 

As I say, once you settle on a concept and work with it, the rest will fall into place; you will see locations or pictures in articles and think 'ah, yes, something like that!' and so matters will progress sort of organically.  Ultimately it is your layout and must satisfy you; nobody else matters and while their opinions and suggestions may be useful to you (even the bad ones which will show you what you don't want) this miniature world is yours, and you are god of it.  The most important thing is to enjoy it!!!

[MrDobilina]

Hi guys,

 

I'd like to start off by saying a huge thank you for your detailed and considerate responses so far. It means a lot that you guys have taken time to respond to a new persons cries for help! I'm sure it must be grating over the years!

 

The suggestions of some layouts got me looking at an O gauge layout just titled 'the shed' I have used that concept mixed with fountain colliery and some random bits I just had in my head and have come up with the attached plan.

 

This is very much a work in progress so please let me know if you can spot anything particularly silly!

 

The concept is an end of line sidings/storage area. The good shed bit is very optional as it might take away from the carriage sidings at the back. 

 

I realise you tend to have a much more complicated and expanded area for carriages but I felt this was a good start and experiment.

The shed in the middle would allow for displaying a larger more ornate engine as it recuperates from the days travels. I realise this is a little odd as there would normally be things like this at the station but I liked the concept of a scenic break of a static loco showing off in the middle whilst the work is carried out around it.

 

The Johnsters suggestion of not bothering with run around track and having a release loco really helped this concept along as it means one loco can pull in with a longer rake of wagons into the bottom right siding, and another, perhaps the loco stationed in the shed, can run around and release the loco by first pushing wagons into the goods yard area (That can fit) and pulling forward into the bottom left siding with whatever is left over. the original loco can then escape. 

 

this can also form the basis of a shunt puzzle as one loco could move wagons into the good and overflow area and then reform the rake in the bottom right or bottom left. Ordering would be key here. 

 

The carriage area could be used as carriage storage or wagon storage. The top right area I might add a couple figures standing around with a drink just chin wagging after a long days work.

 

The good yard is the biggest question, along with the use of the wye in the bottom right. It seems like it takes up a lot of room and I dont want it to look over crowded.

 

Could someone advise me on DCC please? I've only ever used DC so far, but am interested as this could mean having two locos on the same track with out having to use breaks in the track to isolate little areas.

 

As always, please please make any comments and suggestions, even if it's "Throw it out! that would never work!" haha just want to learn and make the most interesting and stress free layout I can

[JDW]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.  Its a bit out of my era, so I won't comment much on the layout itself, if I were doing something steam era it would involve lots of little Hornby Pecketts in various colours as some sort of industrial complex.  I like the carriage sidings idea (but if you change your mind, re-purposing as freight sidings isn't hard, or maybe a parcels depot, I'm assuming that the station they serve is just off the layout to the left, so would be an excuse for things shunting in and out.  I don't think the goods shed would detract from it, and often having things visible between buildings is quite interesting.

 

But as far as DCC goes, although many will be along after me to complicate it for you, its pretty simple really.  Yes, if you want to have more than one loco on one track without isolating sections, it will do that for you.  Remember though that you'd need to fit a decoder in locos, which adds to the cost but on most modern models is fairly simple, plug and play, but older models need a little soldering skill.  It doesn't need to be expensive, if thats all you really need it for something like a Hornby Select will likely suffice, very similar to a DC controller with a few extra buttons.  For something more complicated, consider Sig-na-Trak's system (a base unit and a handset) which should do pretty much all you'll need.  

 

In terms of wiring, the simplest way is something like two strips of adhesive copper tape running the length of the layout underneath, with wires running from these to the rails on each section of track.  In basic terms, a wire would be needed at every track end - basically, a wire to each rail at each buffer stop, so that every siding is live whichever way any points are set, plus one on the line to the fiddle yard.  (Obviously they don't have to go at the buffer stop, the can be anywhere on each track, but that illustrates the point easily)

You can if you want to power your points with DCC too, but you don't have to, the old fashioned ways of a rod under the baseboard, or a switch panel and switches/point motors are much cheaper and often simpler on a small layout.  

There'll be others who disagree and insist you should go for a better high end DCC controller, link it to your computer and control all your points via accessory decoders but if you just want to have the flexibility to run any loco anywhere any time, a simple system is the way to go.  Just because it can do all sorts, it doesn't have to, so long as it does what you need.  

 

As for the Y point, I'd say use as many as you can, they flow much nicer than a hard left or right hand bend on a standard point, look more interesting visually and are less tight a radius so less train set like.

[FPH 603]

Hi guys,

 

I'd like to start off by saying a huge thank you for your detailed and considerate responses so far. It means a lot that you guys have taken time to respond to a new persons cries for help! I'm sure it must be grating over the years!

 

The suggestions of some layouts got me looking at an O gauge layout just titled 'the shed' I have used that concept mixed with fountain colliery and some random bits I just had in my head and have come up with the attached plan.

 

This is very much a work in progress so please let me know if you can spot anything particularly silly!

 

The concept is an end of line sidings/storage area. The good shed bit is very optional as it might take away from the carriage sidings at the back. 

 

I realise you tend to have a much more complicated and expanded area for carriages but I felt this was a good start and experiment.

The shed in the middle would allow for displaying a larger more ornate engine as it recuperates from the days travels. I realise this is a little odd as there would normally be things like this at the station but I liked the concept of a scenic break of a static loco showing off in the middle whilst the work is carried out around it.

 

The Johnsters suggestion of not bothering with run around track and having a release loco really helped this concept along as it means one loco can pull in with a longer rake of wagons into the bottom right siding, and another, perhaps the loco stationed in the shed, can run around and release the loco by first pushing wagons into the goods yard area (That can fit) and pulling forward into the bottom left siding with whatever is left over. the original loco can then escape. 

 

this can also form the basis of a shunt puzzle as one loco could move wagons into the good and overflow area and then reform the rake in the bottom right or bottom left. Ordering would be key here. 

 

The carriage area could be used as carriage storage or wagon storage. The top right area I might add a couple figures standing around with a drink just chin wagging after a long days work.

 

The good yard is the biggest question, along with the use of the wye in the bottom right. It seems like it takes up a lot of room and I dont want it to look over crowded.

 

Could someone advise me on DCC please? I've only ever used DC so far, but am interested as this could mean having two locos on the same track with out having to use breaks in the track to isolate little areas.

 

As always, please please make any comments and suggestions, even if it's "Throw it out! that would never work!" haha just want to learn and make the most interesting and stress free layout I can

Looks good, just when wiring you may need to use some isolating joiners at the junctions to avoid shorting out. If you have a look at my blog (see my signature) it shows how to isolate the points. Also try looking at the back of the Peco points packaging (if you are using Peco).

[NHY 581]

Morning.

 

This is my 110cm x 26cm layout built on a shelf. Sheep Lane went from a bare shelf to first exhibition in 12 months. A second shelf 80cm x 26cm forms the fiddle yard.

It can be plonked on the dining table for play time.....er...operation.

 

If I could make an observation or two....

 

Keep it simple...

 

Lots of track doesn't guarentee interesting operation.

 

Think about buildings...tall buildings can give a squashed look to it all. A layout doesn't have to be big to seem spacious.

 

Deffo pop in a run around loopy thing. Operationally much more exciting.

 

Get it done...finished.....and plan the next one learning from the first.

 

 

Hope this helps...

 

Rob.

Edited December 12, 2017 by nhy581

[MrDobilina]

nhy581 - where did you get those buffer stops from? They look just the ticket!

 

 

I've removed the goods shed as I felt it might feel cramped in, particularly after the comments above. I get what you guys mean exactly, and I'd rather use foliage to give a sense of depth and detail rather than block out large areas of the layout with big buildings.

This is mainly a small area for storage of wagons rather than a serviceable area where businesses are loading/unloading wagons with the exception of the coal tip area - I've seen this on a few layouts but I haven't seen a prototypical example yet.

 

Please find attached a slightly updated version of the plan from last night. I've tidied up both areas of sidings and thought about the general content of the scene, green areas and more industrialised sections. I've also uploaded a version minus example vehicles so you can see the track better.

[NHY 581]

Bonjour Dobbers.

 

They are PECO rail built jobbies with a few bits cut off and a wooden beam added.

 

I have repeated the exercise on my current project, Mutton.

 

 

Rob.

[Nearholmer]

I wonder whether you might be trying to fit too much in.

 

One place that is worth googling is midford goods Yard on the s&djr. I'm sure it's been 'done' before, but it was very picturesque and model-railway-like.

 

Nice photo of the ground frame hut, and the tunnel/bridge with the signal on top, here http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Colour-Images-of-the-Railways-of-Somerset/image/150/Midford_A_Ground_Frame_c1960

 

And, a picture looking the other way, although unfortunately after the yard sidings were lifted http://www.bathintime.co.uk/image/218756/view-of-midford-goods-yard-below-midford-castle-1966

Edited December 12, 2017 by Nearholmer

[MrDobilina]

I wonder whether you might be trying to fit too much in.

 

One place that is worth googling is midford goods Yard on the s&djr. I'm sure it's been 'done' before, but it was very picturesque and model-railway-like.

 

Nice photo of the ground frame hut, and the tunnel/bridge with the signal on top, here http://www.archive-images.co.uk/gallery/Archive-Colour-Images-of-the-Railways-of-Somerset/image/150/Midford_A_Ground_Frame_c1960

 

And, a picture looking the other way, although unfortunately after the yard sidings were lifted http://www.bathintime.co.uk/image/218756/view-of-midford-goods-yard-below-midford-castle-1966

 

Hmm I might be, I'll see what it looks like when its on the board so to speak!

 

If it is too much, a lovely little through scenic like you posted would be just as nice thank you! I'm trying to get this complete or mostly complete by February due to a house move. I'd rather get it working and in a safe to transport state sooner rather than later

 

Bonjour Dobbers.

 

They are PECO rail built jobbies with a few bits cut off and a wooden beam added.

 

I have repeated the exercise on my current project, Mutton.

 

 

Rob.

Lovely jubbly! That's on my list of things to buy once I have laid, wired and ballasted! Peco sl-40?

[Nearholmer]

Have you seen this thread?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129010-complete-newbie-asking-layout-advice/

 

Some very similar questions coming up, and I'm thinking that some of the answers that are being tabled there could be of interest to you too. The Piano Line, which I advocated in that thread, was originally the size you have to play with, for instance.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Nearholmer

[MrDobilina]

Great information again NearHolmer!

 

I've had a think and have come up with an alternative. This is a sidings area where a runaround can be achieved by going back over the bridge to the second cassette and then back again.

 

[JDW]

I think a bridge would be easier than a level crossing at the throat of a yard (car drivers wouldn't want to be held up by shunting!) but your latest plan looks a bit boring and straight - some nice easy long sidings all parallel and the same length.  It seems to lack the sense of purpose (goods shed, engine shed, industry) that your earlier designs had.  Sorry, just my opinion of course!

[Nearholmer]

Another layout to look at is Llanstr (I think I got that right), which uses the ‘half a loop’ trick that you’ve discovered, and has a realistic spaciousness and sense of purpose, while actually being very small.

 

Found it https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibllanastr.html

Edited December 14, 2017 by Nearholmer

[FPH 603]

I think a bridge would be easier than a level crossing at the throat of a yard (car drivers wouldn't want to be held up by shunting!) but your latest plan looks a bit boring and straight - some nice easy long sidings all parallel and the same length. It seems to lack the sense of purpose (goods shed, engine shed, industry) that your earlier designs had. Sorry, just my opinion of course!

Yes, whilst it is good to 'keep it simple', you don't want to be too plain. Just adding a couple of buildings like you did in your earlier plans would make it a great layout.

 

EDIT: Unless the trains are going to be long, I wouldn't put long straight sidings like that. I nearly went with something similar on my layout on it's lower level - two straights of track. Later I opted for something a little more interesting. Instead of two, boring lengths of track, I placed two adjacent junctions in the middle and reduced one track into a siding instead of running it through.

Edited December 14, 2017 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[MrDobilina]

I think a bridge would be easier than a level crossing at the throat of a yard (car drivers wouldn't want to be held up by shunting!) but your latest plan looks a bit boring and straight - some nice easy long sidings all parallel and the same length.  It seems to lack the sense of purpose (goods shed, engine shed, industry) that your earlier designs had.  Sorry, just my opinion of course!

Good point! Just trying to keep it simple but then as you say it needs to be fun and interesting too! Hard to juggle these all around.

 

Another layout to look at is Llanstr (I think I got that right), which uses the ‘half a loop’ trick that you’ve discovered, and has a realistic spaciousness and sense of purpose, while actually being very small.

 

Found it https://www.scalefour.org/layouts/exhibllanastr.html

Another lovely little layout. Shame I can't spot a track plan for it, a couple shots there make it look quite confusing.

 

Yes, whilst it is good to 'keep it simple', you don't want to be too plain. Just adding a couple of buildings like you did in your earlier plans would make it a great layout.

 

EDIT: Unless the trains are going to be long, I wouldn't put long straight sidings like that. I nearly went with something similar on my layout on it's lower level - two straights of track. Later I opted for something a little more interesting. Instead of two, boring lengths of track, I placed two adjacent junctions in the middle and reduced one track into a siding instead of running it through.

Is that on Kingsborough?

 

Update made and another option here!

the low relief might need to be ignored as I think it will be too small an area for it.

 

ps. ive actually thought about correct left side running of trains this time! can't believe I forgot that on the last one!

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by MrDobilina

[Nearholmer]

The track plan of Llanastr is really simple, see photo below.

 

The 'trick' is the use of a sector-plate FY off to the left to make everything work.

 

Notice how it is uncrowned, and how there is no absolutely straight track, both of which make it look much bigger than it really is.

 

One thing to watch out for in planning is 'kick back' sidings, like the coal road in your most recent plan. They can be almost more trouble than they are worth to shunt, but it's all a matter of taste.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Harlequin]

Hi, I just had a quick doodle and came up with this:

 

The idea was:

• To have only one line running off-board to simplify the connection to the fiddle-yard or cassette and make it more reliable.
• To fit a runaround loop on the board. (To make the loop work best in the small space it has to fit diagonally across.)
• To see if Peco Streamline large radius geometry points could be used throughout - so you could use bullhead track and points if you wanted.

So this just a technical track layout exercise - whether a track formation like that would ever have existed in the real-world or makes any sense operationally is another matter!

Edited December 15, 2017 by Harlequin

[JDW]

Good point! Just trying to keep it simple but then as you say it needs to be fun and interesting too! Hard to juggle these all around.

 

Another lovely little layout. Shame I can't spot a track plan for it, a couple shots there make it look quite confusing.

 

Is that on Kingsborough?

 

Update made and another option here!

the low relief might need to be ignored as I think it will be too small an area for it.

 

ps. ive actually thought about correct left side running of trains this time! can't believe I forgot that on the last one!

 

15.jpg

 

I hate to say it, but whilst the train would arrive on the left, anything leaving the passenger sidings would be on the right...!  Actually, I don't think it matters, since it's a set of sidings (presumably connected to a station or larger yard/depot) and trains would be shunted/arrive by the most suitable route depending what platform they'd come off, not necessarily the left hand one.

[MrDobilina]

Hi, I just had a quick doodle and came up with this:

BobDob.png

 

The idea was:

• To have only one line running off-board to simplify the connection to the fiddle-yard or cassette and make it more reliable.
• To fit a runaround loop on the board. (To make the loop work best in the small space it has to fit diagonally across.)
• To see if Peco Streamline large radius geometry points could be used throughout - so you could use bullhead track and points if you wanted.

So this just a technical track layout exercise - whether a track formation like that would ever have existed in the real-world or makes any sense operationally is another matter!

 

Very nice, how did you make that? I currently have 4 points immediately available to me, a three way, wye, left short and right short. All peco code 75

[NHY 581]

Deffo have a loop in there some where. Operationally more fun. I wouldn't worry about a kick back siding being tricky to work. That is half the fun.

 

Why not lay it out on the kitchen/dining table and just play trains ? Much better that drawing plans.

 

 

Rob.

[Harlequin]

Here's the same topology but this time using your existing points and a bit more organic:

 

Ideally you would replace the Y with a small right to avoid the kink into the loco spur.

 

A small loco like a Jinty should be able to run around without leaving the board.

 

You could imagine a milk or parcels depot in the top left, perhaps.

 

No problems with the kickback spur because it's just for coaling and watering locos.

 

The space at the front of the board inside the natural arc of the lines would be perfect for a bit of scenic detail.

 

(I'm using a normal drawing program and template symbols of the Peco Streamline points.)

Edited December 16, 2017 by Harlequin

[Nearholmer]

I like that one, and I think the Y and kink actually add to the flow.

 

On the 'less is more front', I think you could afford to leave out the road with the shed on it, to make everything feel more spacious.

 

If you had a 'side platform', rather than 'through' shed, you could put it against the one remaining long siding, to the right of the siding, giving a loading scene there, then use the flat area between the siding and loop for coal plus a crane. Stick an end loading and cattle dock around the loco release at top left and you'd have all the basic facilities needed to handle a range of goods traffic, in a small way.

 

You could even fit a very thin platform, a bare scale 6ft wide to comply with legislation, along the top, and create a very basic passenger facility, too.

 

Bembridge IoW made do with a track layout pretty much like that for its entire existence.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Nearholmer