Harry Lime Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 A curious incident today on my journey home. As we approached a station as part of a local stopping service, a passenger in a mobility scooter was on the platform and had lined himself up with the correct part of the train. The guard/conductor(?) had walked off to deal with something else from the designated entry point. Incidentally, two revenue inspection officers were standing in same part of the train watching the following event unfold. Either the guard did not see the passenger and clearly, the driver didn't either as the train departed without anyone getting off, sorting out the ramp, getting the passenger on board and then stowing the ramp prior to moving off. I am curious (and genuinely ignorant about such railway procedures) about whose responsibility it is now in such circumstances to help passengers aboard. Can anyone help me understand how such an incident might have occured. There were several schoolchildren present who were genuinely annoyed by it as was the passenger, too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) A curious incident today on my journey home. As we approached a station as part of a local stopping service, a passenger in a mobility scooter was on the platform and had lined himself up with the correct part of the train. The guard/conductor(?) had walked off to deal with something else from the designated entry point. Incidentally, two revenue inspection officers were standing in same part of the train watching the following event unfold. Either the guard did not see the passenger and clearly, the driver didn't either as the train departed without anyone getting off, sorting out the ramp, getting the passenger on board and then stowing the ramp prior to moving off. I am curious (and genuinely ignorant about such railway procedures) about whose responsibility it is now in such circumstances to help passengers aboard. Can anyone help me understand how such an incident might have occured. There were several schoolchildren present who were genuinely annoyed by it as was the passenger, too! Not all types of mobility scooter are suitable for loading onto trains, some are too large to fit wheelchair ramps and/or would cause an obstruction when on board. However, as nobody seems to have spoken to the would-be passenger, who sounds like he knew what he was doing, so.that seems unlikely to adequately explain this particular incident. It would be helpful to know which TOC and what type of unit were involved. John Edited December 11, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 A curious incident today on my journey home. As we approached a station as part of a local stopping service, a passenger in a mobility scooter was on the platform and had lined himself up with the correct part of the train. The guard/conductor(?) had walked off to deal with something else from the designated entry point. Incidentally, two revenue inspection officers were standing in same part of the train watching the following event unfold. Either the guard did not see the passenger and clearly, the driver didn't either as the train departed without anyone getting off, sorting out the ramp, getting the passenger on board and then stowing the ramp prior to moving off. I am curious (and genuinely ignorant about such railway procedures) about whose responsibility it is now in such circumstances to help passengers aboard. Can anyone help me understand how such an incident might have occured. There were several schoolchildren present who were genuinely annoyed by it as was the passenger, too! Naff all to do with the driver. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2017 Naff all to do with the driver. Says it all, really? Too much trouble to pick up passengers.... Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 Not all types of mobility scooter are suitable for loading onto trains, some are too large to fit wheelchair ramps and/or would cause an obstruction when on board. However, as nobody seems to have spoken to the would-be passenger, who sounds like he knew what he was doing, so.that seems unlikely to adequately explain this particular incident. It would be helpful to know which TOC and what type of unit were involved. John Thanks John, I was hoping originally not to give away too many details in case of causing embarrassment to all parties concerned. However, it was on an Electrostar on the south coast between Brighton and Portsmouth. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) Says it all, really? Too much trouble to pick up passengers.... Dava Where on-board staff are employed, it's the driver's job to drive the train. If he/she had to get out and deal with embarking and disembarking mobility scooters etc. every station stop would have to be ten minutes. John Edited December 11, 2017 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2017 Thanks John, I was hoping originally not to give away too many details in case of causing embarrassment to all parties concerned. However, it was on an Electrostar on the south coast between Brighton and Portsmouth. Seems very odd, but if there was some shortcoming on the part of the staff, I suspect that management will already have been advised by the offended party. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Naff all to do with the driver. We don't know where this took place, although the OP seems to have involvement in the Worthing area, judging by the footer. If that is right it is in the controversial Southern area where drivers operate doors and what were guards are now called something else (something supervisor as I recall), but have no responsibility for door operation, as I understand it. Of course, if the driver is taking his right of way, he is only concerned with safety so not with the poor chap on the mobility scooter. If the doors are clear on his screens, he/she closes and away. Maybe a guard would have taken more interest and been in a better position to assist the intending passenger - who knows - I can't see this happening in the West Midlands area, where I live - the guard would be outside the train, looking down the platform, the driver just looks at a screen. Another reason that DOO is not such a great idea..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2017 Things like this will only get worse with driver only operation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 Naff all to do with the driver. My only reason for adding the bit about the driver was to find out if there was a procedure, in this case, for the driver alerting the guard to this passenger. As I put in my original post, I was only a passenger and ignorant of much that goes on when travelling by train. However, I am genuinely curious about who checks about such incidents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2017 Usually platform staff assist with such a scenario, but I'm guessing this was a "non-staffed" station? Regards, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 We don't know where this took place, although the OP seems to have involvement in the Worthing area, judging by the footer. If that is right it is in the controversial Southern area where drivers operate doors and what were guards are now called something else (something supervisor as I recall), but have no responsibility for door operation, as I understand it. Of course, if the driver is taking his right of way, he is only concerned with safety so not with the poor chap on the mobility scooter. If the doors are clear on his screens, he/she closes and away. Maybe a guard would have taken more interest and been in a better position to assist the intending passenger - who knows - I can't see this happening in the West Midlands area, where I live - the guard would be outside the train, looking down the platform, the driver just looks at a screen. Another reason that DOO is not such a great idea..... Damn, I knew there was too much of a give-away somewhere...yes, it was on the south coast. I think that everyone on board was genuinely shocked at what happened, and I didn't want to get into the DOO debate either. However, this is what I was concerned may have happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 11, 2017 Author Share Posted December 11, 2017 Usually platform staff assist with such a scenario, but I'm guessing this was a "non-staffed" station? Regards, Ian. Certainly I could not see any staff on the platform at that time. However, I was also interested to know why the two revenue protection officers did nothing - again, I suppose that they have their roles, too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2017 Certainly I could not see any staff on the platform at that time. However, I was also interested to know why the two revenue protection officers did nothing - again, I suppose that they have their roles, too... Precisely. Revenue Protection staff do not have anything to do with the "running" of trains. Regards, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ba14eagle Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2017 Cant remember when it was (but in the last 12 - 18 months) I used Southern to try and get to Ford, for a visit to Gaugemaster. I managed to get over carried to Barnham, as the doors wouldn't open at Ford, despite there being plenty of platform to alight onto! No announcements were made on the journey from Clapham Jn, to say there would be limited door opening, so goodness knows what happened. Anyway, couldn't be bothered to wait for the next train back to Ford, so carried on home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Damn, I knew there was too much of a give-away somewhere...yes, it was on the south coast. I think that everyone on board was genuinely shocked at what happened, and I didn't want to get into the DOO debate either. However, this is what I was concerned may have happened. Well, sorry for picking the location up. I think this is part of the DOO debate. I have no doubt that DOO can be operated safely and efficiently in the right context. The problem is that what is happening here is not in the right context. If you want to run DOO there should be platform staff (as on London Overground), preferably with an ability to communicate problems to the driver, but at the very least drivers taking right of way from them. Platform staff here would (probably) have seen the intending passenger and done the necessary. It is quite difficult for guards to deal with this issue on crewed trains (although from what I have seen they do so reasonably efficiently), but I don't see how a driver does so - not possible. Sorry to be slightly off topic (but I think this is a DOO issue), on a recent trip to Germany I noticed that the Frankfurt S Bahn uses DOO, no doubt similar to others in Germany. In contrast to practice in the UK, I noticed that there was virtually no gap between train floor and platform on the stations I used, thus no possibility of a fall between train and platform. It is obviously possible that there are stations with a train/platform gap, but I didn't see them and much of these lines are new build. The door sensors are also very sensitive - a wave through the gap causes them to re-open. I know this causes reliability problems, but that did not seem to be a problem here (but I could well be wrong on that). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium JDW Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2017 My first thought was to wonder why no one else did anything? Surely someone might have seen him wanting to board, maybe pressed the door open button for him, if not the revenue protection staff, a passenger. And whether or not it's their "job", if I'd been one of them and been able to intervene, I'm sure I would have. DerekI makes a valid point I think, in that I've often disagreed with DOO here, yet never felt or witnessed any problems with it in situations like he mentions abroad - the Parisian RER might be a good comparison with some of Southern's routes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2017 A curious incident today on my journey home. As we approached a station as part of a local stopping service, a passenger in a mobility scooter was on the platform and had lined himself up with the correct part of the train. The guard/conductor(?) had walked off to deal with something else from the designated entry point. Incidentally, two revenue inspection officers were standing in same part of the train watching the following event unfold. Either the guard did not see the passenger and clearly, the driver didn't either as the train departed without anyone getting off, sorting out the ramp, getting the passenger on board and then stowing the ramp prior to moving off. I am curious (and genuinely ignorant about such railway procedures) about whose responsibility it is now in such circumstances to help passengers aboard. Can anyone help me understand how such an incident might have occured. There were several schoolchildren present who were genuinely annoyed by it as was the passenger, too! If you saw this, you should have used the pass-com (emergency alarm) Andi 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 My view, irrespective of procedures, is that someone from the TOC should have taken responsibility for this passenger. That's the trouble with the way the modern railway is operated, as long as the company is making money, the passenger can go whistle! It seems that in many instances passengers are an inconvenience, who have to be tolerated. On the other hand I have seen exceptional service from railway staff, but that doesn't excuse the staff who won't put themselves out. Davey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Says it all, really? Too much trouble to pick up passengers.... Dava Do a bit of research and then you see the reason for my reply! The driver is in no way, shape or form to leave the cab and deal with a wheelchair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Where on-board staff are employed, it's the driver's job to drive the train. If he/she had to get out and deal with embarking and disembarking mobility scooters etc. every station stop would have to be ten minutes. John Probably longer that that while the rules and regs are gone through, but then its easier for some just to drag drivers into situations which dont concern them isnt it. Just for information,when I have been travelling pass on a train I have assisted the Guard with wheelchairs and passenger assistance, but when I am driving a train, that is what I am doing and nothing else. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Usually platform staff assist with such a scenario, but I'm guessing this was a "non-staffed" station? Regards, Ian. The OP mentioned Guard/Conductor so there were staff available, hence it being nothing to do with the driver. Maybe some people need to contact Southern* on faceache or tw@ter and ask them what the procedure is when there is a wheelchair passenger at an unstaffed station and there is no OBS on board the train, the answer (if you get one) will both surprise and disgust you! If you saw this, you should have used the pass-com (emergency alarm) Andi In what way is it an emergency? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Certainly I could not see any staff on the platform at that time. However, I was also interested to know why the two revenue protection officers did nothing - again, I suppose that they have their roles, too... Probably because they were revenue protection, it is outside their remit to carry out duties they have not been trained in, and before anyone starts down the 'its only putting a ramp down' routine the simple fact of the matter is they could have their employment ended by doing so especially if something went wrong! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Cant remember when it was (but in the last 12 - 18 months) I used Southern to try and get to Ford, for a visit to Gaugemaster. I managed to get over carried to Barnham, as the doors wouldn't open at Ford, despite there being plenty of platform to alight onto! No announcements were made on the journey from Clapham Jn, to say there would be limited door opening, so goodness knows what happened. Anyway, couldn't be bothered to wait for the next train back to Ford, so carried on home. The coach might have been on the platform but the train might have had unit deselect (where only complete units can have their doors released) and not SDO which will open all fully platformed coaches. I remember from the good old days that Fareham on the down could accommodate an 8 coach 450, but if the trai was 12 coaches long only the front 4 would be opened because the cab of the 9th coach (where SDO 8 would have to be carried out) was just off the platform. Just because a coach is on the platform doesnt mean the doors will be released on it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2017 I believe that the official procedure is for the 'on board supervisor' to insert his control key into the nearest door control Pannel (thus preventing the driver from closing them) until they have asatained there is nobody requiring assistance. Of course people make mistakes and if the OBS is sufficiently distracted at the crucial time then mistakes can happen. As ever though if incidents like this are not reported then nothing will be done - while there is zero chance over the ideologically driven inhabitants of the DfT reversing their aggressive DOO policy, Southern could, and should do better in looking after their mobility I,pared customers. I am personally awere of a similar incident that saw a passenger in a wheelchair stuck at Hampden park station in freezing conditions for over 2 hours because the booked assistance didn't turn up and the trains lacked an OBS, plus Southern 'preferred' taxi supplier had to come all the way from Brighton. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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