Passenger left behind...

[nigel newling]

While I quite agree that the driver should not leave his cab, what happened to the tradition that the loco crew looked down the train to ensure that all was well before moving off? Surely the train crew should be working as a team?

 

I don't like the idea of one man operated trains. Come an incident, you need one man to look after the train and its safety and a second man to look after the passengers and their safety. One man cannot do both.

[D854_Tiger]

I know this might sound like a dumb question but did he actually want to get on the train.

 

He might have been a crank.

[Derekl]

Sorry I introduced the DOO element in this having overlooked the reference to the guard/conductor in the OP. I am also aware that the Coastway services are still guard operated since I used one recently to go to Gaugemaster at Ford (where the doors did open for me).

 

Given that there are other services on the Coastway (Littlehampton - Victoria and Portsmouth or Southampton) I suppose it is possible that he was waiting for another service. 

[Colin_McLeod]

If you saw this, you should have used the pass-com (emergency alarm)

 

Andi

Just what I was thinking.

Why did none of the passengers say or do anything?

 

Four busy staff between them failed to notice a disabled person trying to board is bad. The railway advertises that it is disabled friendly so it should be someone's job to check if there are any disabled passengers requiring assistance.

 

I suppose it was

naff all to do with

the passengers either.

[Dunsignalling]

Just what I was thinking.

Why did none of the passengers say or do anything?

 

Four busy staff between them failed to notice a disabled person trying to board is bad. The railway advertises that it is disabled friendly so it should be someone's job to check if there are any disabled passengers requiring assistance.

 

I suppose it was the passengers either.

Cos they were all too engrossed with various bits of personal tech to notice anything that was going on outside their little bubble? Today's rail travellers look out of the window an awful lot less than in times gone by.

 

Also, the high backed seats fitted in trains these days create a kind of tunnel vision onto the platform for seated passengers other than any in the nearest three or four window seats.

 

John

Edited December 12, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Colin_McLeod]

A human being with a carriage key to unlock the access ramp?

No. A human being with a tounge who can tell the guard either face to face or by using the passenger communication cord. Note the word "communication" rather than "emergency"

 

This comment also applies to any "Jobsworth" staff on board. A revenue inspector may not be trained to set up a ramp but he can tell the guard (if he was aware of the problem)

 

I am saddened by some of the comments on this thread. I always thought railway staff pulled together and I never realised the level of jobsworth thinking was around nowadays.

 

I did 16 years service in Northern Ireland Railways and never came across anything like the arguments put forward on this thread.

 

Rant over.

[mikejames]

I find the most distressing thing in this thread is that somebody might loss their job for helping someone

 

regards

mikej

[Colin_McLeod]

No they would not. They are just afraid that they might. No tribunal would uphold a dismissal in such circumstances and no court would impose a fine for using the communication cord in these circumstances either.

[Boris]

There's a huge amount of willy waving going on here, couple of questions spring to mind though?

 

How full was the train, I always thought these scooters were carried subject to space?

 

Secondly what about the scooter itself, how large was it?  Many of the railway ramps have a limit of 300kg and these days that's not that high.  We turned one away last summer because (I kid you not) it was nearly 9 feet long, we couldn't get the ramp AND the scooter across the width of the platform. We tried to lift it on and (without the occupant) 4 good size blokes couldn't lift it, and when you read the data plate it weighed nigh on 250kg empty!  Ok, this cut down dalek is a bit of an extreme example and certainly the biggest mobility scooter I've ever seen, but many of these things are not small these days.

[Guest]

I am saddened by some of the comments on this thread. I always thought railway staff pulled together and I never realised the level of jobsworth thinking was around nowadays.

 

It's the new "normal", sadly. A while back there was a thread about a passenger in a wheelchair having to negotiate steps. I put forward a theory that surely a couple of station staff and/or good samaritan passengers could lend a hand? This radical idea was pilloried along with suggestions that those helping could end up in court, the disabled passenger might "complain" about infringement of personal space, those offering to help would not have received the appropriate "training" etc etc. Good grief... reminds me of the CCTV footage of an elderly lady that fell down an escalator and the next half-dozen people just stepped over her before someone came to her aid.

"Look away... nothing to do with me..."

[Harry Lime]

I know this might sound like a dumb question but did he actually want to get on the train.

 

He might have been a crank.

 

He was in his mobility scooter, lined up at the designated spot for the diabled access to the train and had a ticket in his hand, so I am guessing he wasn;t trying it on...

[Harry Lime]

It's the new "normal", sadly. A while back there was a thread about a passenger in a wheelchair having to negotiate steps. I put forward a theory that surely a couple of station staff and/or good samaritan passengers could lend a hand? This radical idea was pilloried along with suggestions that those helping could end up in court, the disabled passenger might "complain" about infringement of personal space, those offering to help would not have received the appropriate "training" etc etc. Good grief... reminds me of the CCTV footage of an elderly lady that fell down an escalator and the next half-dozen people just stepped over her before someone came to her aid.

"Look away... nothing to do with me..."

 

There is no 'sadly I have to agree' emoji or button here...

[Mike Storey]

It's the new "normal", sadly. A while back there was a thread about a passenger in a wheelchair having to negotiate steps. I put forward a theory that surely a couple of station staff and/or good samaritan passengers could lend a hand? This radical idea was pilloried along with suggestions that those helping could end up in court, the disabled passenger might "complain" about infringement of personal space, those offering to help would not have received the appropriate "training" etc etc. Good grief... reminds me of the CCTV footage of an elderly lady that fell down an escalator and the next half-dozen people just stepped over her before someone came to her aid.

"Look away... nothing to do with me..."

 

I know there are many reports of same, but I have not come across such behaviour. In fact quite the opposite. When my wife has to struggle with stairs and I have to manhandle her wheelchair, there is invariably someone, or several, who ask if they can help in some way. Sometimes, they almost forcibly help my wife, not realising I am there. This has been the case in any country I have been to. Mind you, she is quite attractive...... 

[Harry Lime]

There's a huge amount of willy waving going on here, couple of questions spring to mind though?

 

How full was the train, I always thought these scooters were carried subject to space?

 

Secondly what about the scooter itself, how large was it?  Many of the railway ramps have a limit of 300kg and these days that's not that high.  We turned one away last summer because (I kid you not) it was nearly 9 feet long, we couldn't get the ramp AND the scooter across the width of the platform. We tried to lift it on and (without the occupant) 4 good size blokes couldn't lift it, and when you read the data plate it weighed nigh on 250kg empty!  Ok, this cut down dalek is a bit of an extreme example and certainly the biggest mobility scooter I've ever seen, but many of these things are not small these days.

 

There ws sufficient space in the compartment designated for wheelchairs, the main occupants being the two RPO's.  The mobility scooter was what I would classify as a reasonable size - certainly not like some of the 4-wheel drive versions.

 

HTH

[Boris]

It's the 21st century, everyone gets offended at everything. 

 

People are more likely to be offered assistance at a quiet station (or area in general) because there is less chance of people standing out from the crowd, if the area is busy herd mentality takes over and that person is ignored, the "somebody else will sort it" mindset takes over.  There have been a number of fascinating scientific studies into this and some social experiments (check youtube) proving it, they are interesting if worrying viewing.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Boris

[meil]

It's the new "normal", sadly. A while back there was a thread about a passenger in a wheelchair having to negotiate steps. I put forward a theory that surely a couple of station staff and/or good samaritan passengers could lend a hand? This radical idea was pilloried along with suggestions that those helping could end up in court, the disabled passenger might "complain" about infringement of personal space, those offering to help would not have received the appropriate "training" etc etc. Good grief... reminds me of the CCTV footage of an elderly lady that fell down an escalator and the next half-dozen people just stepped over her before someone came to her aid.

"Look away... nothing to do with me..."

Unfortunately it is the way of things now for good reason - that is the way society wants it. If you go the the assistance of a police officer who is being attacked you are likely to end up being charged with assault. Ditto a train guard (example reported on here some time ago). I know of an example of an off-duty nurse who went to the assistance of a traffic accident. It didn't turn out as the injured person wanted so sued the nurse.

 

If that's the way society wants it then as far as I am concerned that's the way they can have it.

[JimC]

No they would not. They are just afraid that they might. No tribunal would uphold a dismissal in such circumstances and no court would impose a fine for using the communication cord in these circumstances either.

 

While that may be true the amount of stress and pain caused by the process working its way through to that point has to be seen to be believed. Some friends of mine suffered the whole process from BS allegation through suspension from work, refusal to take offers of good deals for resigning to eventually being cleared with nothing but the mildest slap on the fingers, and what it did to them was hard to believe.

[chris p bacon]

. I know of an example of an off-duty nurse who went to the assistance of a traffic accident. It didn't turn out as the injured person wanted so sued the nurse.

 

I hear this often but have never seen the proof, can you link to something that shows that action, either Civil or Criminal was taken.

 

Ta.

[Boris]

I hear this often but have never seen the proof, can you link to something that shows that action, either Civil or Criminal was taken.

 

Ta.

Following the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Act 2015 its unlikely to occur, and has taken on the status of urban myth, for legal protections see "Good Samaritan Act" on your favourite web search engine for a list by country.  English torte law allows protections for people attempting to do the right thing in an emergency, and I believe Donoghue v Stevenson of 1932 set the precedent for what is and is not negligence?

[chriswright03]

As sad as it is that this has happened and someone has been left stranded what I find equally as sad is that a lot of posters are looking for someone to blame for this. 

 

It should not have happened and I am sure we all agree on that.  Why it happened will no doubt be investigated as I am sure a complaint will have been made.  Rather than look to blame some individual(s),  what needs to be looked at is why it happened and ensuring it doesn't happen again if at all possible.

 

I doubt very much that it was done deliberately and with malice by the guard who by the sound of it was elsewhere.  Even trained staff can only be in one place at a time. 

 

Should the RPO staff have helped?  Well if they were there as it suggests they were in the OP then they could have told the Guard but I agree entirely with the fact that they are neither trained nor allowed to use equipment and as such should not under any circumstances.  Yes one of them could have gone to find the guard and inform him of the passenger requiring assistance.

 

If an investigation is launched then any witnesses should be asked what they saw but that is only 'if' said witnesses come forward.  Has the OP contacted anyone to tell them he was a witness?  If it becomes apparent that two RPO were stood there and did nothing then I am sure they would be given advice for the future but they still would not be allowed to use equipment they are not trained or authorised to.

 

I accept that the human thing for anyone to do would be assist if they can but I do object to the term jobsworth.  Having been involved in passenger transport (buses) for a number of years and being responsible for representing Union members in discipline hearings I can assure you that people do get dismissed for not following Company procedures.  Then they are jobless as opposed to jobsworth with the related problem of finding funds to live.

[Boris]

I accept that the human thing for anyone to do would be assist if they can but I do object to the term jobsworth.  Having been involved in passenger transport (buses) for a number of years and being responsible for representing Union members in discipline hearings I can assure you that people do get dismissed for not following Company procedures.  Then they are jobless as opposed to jobsworth with the related problem of finding funds to live.

The flip side of that being everybody these days is a special snowflake deserving of preferential treatment and will write a downright lie to your employer if they can't have their own way, its not a nice situation to be in.

[chriswright03]

Sadly that is also very often the case as well Boris.  Also the Company I worked for always believed the complainant rather than the driver.  Innocent until proved guilty did not feature at all in Company Procedure.  Many battles over the years to show that all drivers weren't lying psychopaths.

[Mike Storey]

The flip side of that being everybody these days is a special snowflake deserving of preferential treatment and will write a downright lie to your employer if they can't have their own way, its not a nice situation to be in.

 

That was true many years ago too. But, if managers are any good, who are used to dealing with complaints and comments as a daily occurrence, it is fairly easy to spot the gross exaggerations and outright lies spoken by those who seek to gain from an incident. (I was threatened with much nastiness by various individuals when defending my staff, none of which ever came to pass, except for one particularly nasty journalist who worked for one of the nastier newspapers, He was sacked himself about six months later.)

 

The tell-tale is usually when such complaints tend to multiply for a particular member of staff, and that is when the old antennae start to twitch a bit more.

[JDW]

A couple more questions arise here for me.  The first is that if we're talking mobility scooter, that implies the person can get out of it.  Had it been me, I'm sure I'd either have taken a (presumably) few steps to the door and pressed the button to open it, or moved closer and opened it, to make sure people saw/knew I was trying to board, and stop the train going without me.  I don't know the circumstances though, so maybe that wasn't possible.  

 

As for the being sacked for helping thing, on the one hand I'd always help.  I've driven buses for over a decade, and seen me leave the cab to help people, whether it's someone in a wheelchair with a lot of shopping who needs an extra pair of hands, whether its to help someone who has fallen, point someone in the right direction, or even on one occasion carry an elderly woman's shopping 50 yards to her door.  On the other, apparently we "must never leave the cab" and one driver was indeed assaulted when he went upstairs to intervene when a schoolchild was being attacked.  From what I heard, the response was he shouldn't have left his cab.  His and the Union's strong comeback was that he couldn't morally have stayed there and let a child be beaten up, and he would do the same thing again next time if needed.  He still has a job, funnily enough.  It might have been different had it been an adult, but you have to judge every event as it happens and do your best.  In our case, we're told on one side that we have to follow proceedures etc (which we all know can't cover every possible variation of a situation) and on the other we're told to go the extra mile, make someone's day, do whatever it takes.  You can't win!

 

I'd also thought about using the passcom, in hindsight it seems sensible and if I'd been the driver or guard I can't imagine I'd have been upset with someone for using it.  In the heat of the moment though, it's something that is seen as for "emergencies" and we're taught not to use or touch it, so its easy to see why people would be reluctant to do so.

 

As for the RPOs not being trained to use the ramp - or maybe even not being able to get it out for lack of key etc - they could still have opened the door for the person (a welcoming gesture on a cold day), greeted them, "the guard will be here in a second with the ramp", giving reassurance they had been seen and the train wasn't going without them - surely they're trained in both opening doors and greeting people?!  Certainly its what I think I'd have done, or if I hadn't seen the situation develop until too late then as staff I'd have felt much more comfortable doing it and stopping the train than a passenger might.

 

But as others have said, they might have been distracted, just as the guard might have, and you can only do one thing at a time.  It only takes one irate passenger chewing your ear to distract you from what else is going on and cause you to miss something else happening.  Whether that's right or wrong is a whole different debate, and sometimes mistakes happen and can be learnt from.  

[JDW]

The flip side of that being everybody these days is a special snowflake deserving of preferential treatment and will write a downright lie to your employer if they can't have their own way, its not a nice situation to be in.

 

Thankfully many companies are now starting to wise up and stand up for themselves in such situations - First Glasgow had quite a high profile one a while back after a woman tried to claim she'd been injured - not only did they disprove it, I believe they actually did take action against her:

https://cbwmagazine.com/first-glasgow-considers-legal-action-claims-driver/

For too long people have gotten used to companies being too afraid of "bad publicity" to do anything about it, whereas they're now starting to realise they need to take a stand and show people that bleating on social media won't get them what they want and can land them in a lot of trouble.