stay alive advice

[2435mick]

I am trying to fit a stay alive device into a Bachmann class 20 however as always, there is not much room, cant fit anything in the belly tank as its a solid moulding, the only room is right at the nose, due to lack of room I was thinking about using lots of smt type of capacitors (say up to 20) having done a bit of research on't web. As I class myself as a novice regarding this sort of thing I was wondering if these would be suitable https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20X-Tantalum-Capacitor-7343-25V-100Uf-Type-D-20-Smd-Surface-Mount-New-Ic-I/382052386788?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170907081254%26meid%3D98d7da33e7114831bfe01ca86bec779f%26pid%3D100281%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D3%26&_trksid=p2045573.c100281.m3567

or could anyone give me some advice, I was thinking due to small size I could make a pack up to suit my needs, even linking additional caps together with wires to place them anywhere they will fit.

cheers, Mick

[Michael Sy]

I am trying to fit a stay alive device into a Bachmann class 20 however as always, there is not much room, cant fit anything in the belly tank as its a solid moulding, the only room is right at the nose, due to lack of room I was thinking about using lots of smt type of capacitors (say up to 20) having done a bit of research on't web. As I class myself as a novice regarding this sort of thing I was wondering if these would be suitable https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20X-Tantalum-Capacitor-7343-25V-100Uf-Type-D-20-Smd-Surface-Mount-New-Ic-I/382052386788?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20170907081254%26meid%3D98d7da33e7114831bfe01ca86bec779f%26pid%3D100281%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D3%26&_trksid=p2045573.c100281.m3567

or could anyone give me some advice, I was thinking due to small size I could make a pack up to suit my needs, even linking additional caps together with wires to place them anywhere they will fit.

cheers, Mick

Mick, you can use 470uF Tantalum Capacitor in parallel. But the the energy capacity in Joules is very limited.

[Vecchio]

I don't think you get much smaller using 100uF SMD tantalum capacitors. if you consider that you need 20 to get 2000uF which is a decent value.

Have you checked the electrolytic capacitor range of Farnell or Rapid electronics? You have to search quite patiently as there are different sizes for the same capacitance and voltage. The company Wuerth has quite small sizes, I normally use something like this 

https://www.rapidonline.com/catalogue/search?Query=electrolytic%20capacitors&Attributes={%22Capacitance%22:[%221mF%22],%22Voltage%22:[%2225V%22],%22Dimensions%22:[%22%26amp%3BOslash%3B10%20x%2020mm%22]}&ResultsTotal=2

 

Don't know if the link works, this was from Rapid electronics.

[Nigelcliffe]

There's more room around a OO Bachmann 20 than you might imagine.  The nose, and also along the top.   So stuff should fit. 

 

There are 16v 220uF tantalums in the same package size as the 25v 100uF types posted.  They're probably the most effective in a small package, without going to voltage multiplication circuits (see recent MERG journal).   But, as said, quite a lot joined together needed to have any significant impact.  

 

 

- Nigel

[2435mick]

Is my understanding correct, the higher the uF value the better the energy storage? Next question, how does the votage rating affect the performance?

[Vecchio]

Voltage rating:electrolytic capacitors should never be used with voltages higher than the rated voltage. DCC systems are using voltages between 14 and 18 volt. In some cases this is adjustable. Standard capacitor voltage ratings are 10, 16, 25 (and many more...). Means with 25V you are on the save side.

The higher the capacitance the better the stay alive works. But it should on the other hand not be too high so that the loco is running also in switched off sidings. To notice an improvement I suggest 1000uF. I try normally to pack 3000 or a bit more in if there is space.

Greetings from the city of Zimo. I am in Vienna today.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Vecchio

[Michael Sy]

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/decoders/keep-alive-compatibility

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm

http://laisdcc.com/Stayin_Alive_laisdcc.pdf

 

You can find a very detailed description about keep alive or stay alive or stayin alive at above link. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Michael Sy

[2435mick]

Wow, loads of info but i dont have enough knowlege to decipher

Seriously, thank you guys for this, it gives me some bedtime reading.

[nick_bastable]

would suggest you check this http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107235-2mm-coal-tank-test-build/page-6  although aimed at 2mm it should scale to 4mm unless the motor used is a monster

 

NIck

[bigal10]

Hi Mick,

 

You don’t say whose decoder you are using.

 

My Bachy 20 is driven by a 21 pin Zimo MX644D. Now, these have the ability to use Zimo’s own (massive storage, very small physical size) 6800uF storage capacitor with no extra electronics, as the circuitry is built into the decoder.

 

That easily fits into the nose behind the radiator, or in the cab. Problem then is, where and what size speaker......

Decisions, decisions......

 

The loco won’t do Paul Chetter’s amazing “off roading” (that does need a lot of tantalums) but will certainly run much smoother, and glide over points and dirty track.

 

Regards,

 

Alan.

[Michael Sy]

Wow, loads of info but i dont have enough knowlege to decipher

Seriously, thank you guys for this, it gives me some bedtime reading.

You can order the stayin alive kits from some manufacturer directly. But I do not know the size is small enough for you or not. Below is the information I found for your reference.

 

LaisDcc/860009 Stayin Alive Kits Pro/Price at 12USD http://laisdcc.com/decoders/

 

The LaisDcc Stayin Alive Kits Pro are used to supply power to decoders during times of power interruption due to dirty track or problematic track work

It will power an HO Scale locomotive with headlights on for approximately 6 to 20 seconds (depending on the locomotive and the efficiency of the motor).

It includes a blue and a black wire with which to attach it to a decoder. The blue wire is the positive/DC+, the black wire is the GND. You can use it with sound decoders and mobile decoders.

Dimensions: 26mm x 11.4mm x 8.8mm

PS: This parts not support current version of LaisDcc Decoders. Will support with future version of decoders that will coming soon.

 

Michael

[2435mick]

Hi Mick,

 

You don’t say whose decoder you are using.

 

My Bachy 20 is driven by a 21 pin Zimo MX644D. Now, these have the ability to use Zimo’s own (massive storage, very small physical size) 6800uF storage capacitor with no extra electronics, as the circuitry is built into the decoder.

 

That easily fits into the nose behind the radiator, or in the cab. Problem then is, where and what size speaker......

Decisions, decisions......

 

The loco won’t do Paul Chetter’s amazing “off roading” (that does need a lot of tantalums) but will certainly run much smoother, and glide over points and dirty track.

 

Regards,

 

Alan.

I am using a Zimo sound chip (without going into the whys and wherefores I dont have it at home at the moment due to a fault) and can't remember the model number, I have purchased three DCC Concepts super chips (if you see their You tube video you will understand why) but due to the speaker etc the dcc concept one will not fit which is why i thought of custom building a pack to fit in the space thats left.