Why do sound chips cost so much?.

[darren01]

I have been looking at putting DCC sound in some of my loco, what i would like to know is why are sound chips so costly?, You can easy add £100.00 for sound.

[SRman]

Already covered at length in this earlier topic "Why is sound so expensive?": http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121573-why-is-sound-so-expensive/?hl=%2Bwhy+%2Bdo+%2Bsound+%2Bchips+%2Bcost+%2Bso+%2Bmuch#entry2675847

[charliepetty]

Already covered at length in this earlier topic "Why is sound so expensive?": http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/121573-why-is-sound-so-expensive/?hl=%2Bwhy+%2Bdo+%2Bsound+%2Bchips+%2Bcost+%2Bso+%2Bmuch&do=findComment&comment=2675847

The bulk of the cost is the decoder, the people making all the effort are not making loads, honestly especially if you bear in mind we have £30,000 + in stock to carry.

 

Charlie DCKits/Legomanbiffo.  PPS Hornby are much cheaper but you get, what you get!!

[charliepetty]

HAPPY CHRISTMAS everyone from the Legomanbiffo Team:

 

 

[charliepetty]

[Mike Storey]

But incidentally, Howes, having raised their prices many times as the pound dropped, have now reduced their prices back to about 90 sovs. No explanation. I can think of one.

[wiggy1]

But incidentally, Howes, having raised their prices many times as the pound dropped, have now reduced their prices back to about 90 sovs. No explanation. I can think of one.

 

 

Yes £100.00 or £99.99 to be exact.

[Ed-farms]

But incidentally, Howes, having raised their prices many times as the pound dropped, have now reduced their prices back to about 90 sovs. No explanation. I can think of one.

 

The chips Howes use are ESU which is German so deal in Euro's. The Pound to Euro exchange rate has to be factored in, remember Howes are a business so need to make a profit

[Mike Storey]

The chips Howes use are ESU which is German so deal in Euro's. The Pound to Euro exchange rate has to be factored in, remember Howes are a business so need to make a profit

 

Yes, I get that. It explained the rises over the past year or so, as the pound dropped. How do you explain the recent drop in Howes' prices, when the pound is still relatively low against the euro then?

[RBAGE]

142001 legoman.jpg

Ah! Santa's little helper.

[tractor_37260]

 How do you explain the recent drop in Howes' prices, when the pound is still relatively low against the euro then?

 

Simple - sales have very likely dropped due to their pricing and also competition in the market.......... 

[charliepetty]

Simple - sales have very likely dropped due to their pricing and also competition in the market.......... 

I think we should try to focus on Quality of Sound, features offered and a comprehensive range with quick order turn a round, this entails from our perspective, investment in 200+ decoders minimum, good sound equipment, the best sound recordings you can get and upgrades to older decoders at reasonable prices.

 

This is what we are doing in Legomanbiffo world, IF we went down the 'We are the cheapest' road then you would get similar projects to what is available out there currently!!

Do we all really want this?    We don't.

 

The projects that we do are, in our view, good quality and made with some care an attention.  IF you buy on price then its a free world, plenty of 'Cheap' projects around.

 

Charlie

[Paul-H]

A few years ago there was little choice and if you wanted sound you had to go with ESU, nowadays there is more choice but not much more, Zimo, CT and the much cheaper Hornby, all apart from Hornby are around the same price so competition didn't drive prices down.

 

In electronics the bulk of costs go into development and initial production, once the unit is in production cost of manufacture falls tremendously, I suspect they or most of them are produced in China and if they order enough the main makers are probably paying pennies for them, so the other driving force comes into play, that is demand so they are not selling enough to drive prices down.

 

Interestingly the price of a decoder loaded with someone's hard work, ie the sound file is the same as an empty decoder so the sellers of the final item are probably not making much of the £100 or so pounds they charge in profit, that appeared to be all down to the decoder suppliers, ESU, Zimo etc.

 

Shame Hornby never expanded their offerings, I bet if they sold them with the abilities to be loaded with alternate sounds for the current price of under £40 The others would drop to match just to stop lost sales

 

Have just spent a grand fitting out all my OO and one N-Gauge I so wish we had a more cost effective option, but until the buyers take action nothing will change. Still with most basic decoders costing around £30 and up it only costs £70 to add sound.

 

I keep repeating that for some reason.

 

Paul

[John K]

I don’t think anybody is questioning the margins of the middlemen. The issue is the wholesale prices charged by the decoder producers like Zimo and ESU.

Of course Zimo need to keep prices high to pay their fines in Austria - I don’t know what ESU’s excuse is.

Edited December 20, 2017 by John K

[Nigelcliffe]

In electronics the bulk of costs go into development and initial production, once the unit is in production cost of manufacture falls tremendously, I suspect they or most of them are produced in China and if they order enough the main makers are probably paying pennies for them, so the other driving force comes into play, that is demand so they are not selling enough to drive prices down.

 

 

Some device makers won't export their production to China for fear of cheap copies suddenly appearing, and their R&D investment is stolen.  The risk of copying is worse on products with fairly long product lives - sound decoders tend to stay in production for quite a few years, not the handful of months of a cell-phone before its replaced.     I know at least two of the European makers of sound decoders have decoder assembly and firmware loading in their European factories, with very new equipment bought for doing it.  

 

That said, most of it come down to numbers of sales.  Model railways is a tiny hobby with tiny numbers sold.  Elsewhere, Charlie has said what his stock levels are - a major sound supplier in the UK and quite a lot of money tied up in it all - and those numbers are peanut levels compared to bulk electronic products.     I doubt that European vs China manufacture makes a big difference here. 

 

Those who want cheaper sound decoders could always club together with a crowd-funded project and set up "sound for a tenner".   

 

 

- Nigel

[RAF96]

Hornby TTS decoders are a write once read many (WORM) product for the sound side, although the basic decoder PIC code can be rewritten as evidenced by the recent return to works fix for programming and directional issues when using other make controllers.

 

I would say (and openly inviting flak) that the bulk of the cost of sound is not in the decoder but in the R&D to produce the accurate sound files. Admittedly a full fat decoder with much more memory and capability like chuff synchronisation and polyphonic sound channels is going to have a higher basic cost per chip than the low end sound like Econami and TTS.

 

Charlie and friends as producers can obviously put real costs onto this, rather than my guesswork.

 

Rob

[Roy Langridge]

Hornby TTS decoders are a write once read many (WORM) product for the sound side, although the basic decoder PIC code can be rewritten as evidenced by the recent return to works fix for programming and directional issues when using other make controllers.

 

I would say (and openly inviting flak) that the bulk of the cost of sound is not in the decoder but in the R&D to produce the accurate sound files. Admittedly a full fat decoder with much more memory and capability like chuff synchronisation and polyphonic sound channels is going to have a higher basic cost per chip than the low end sound like Econami and TTS.

 

Charlie and friends as producers can obviously put real costs onto this, rather than my guesswork.

 

Rob

I think we can guess some of it by looking at the cost of reblows - which are not that high. I think that major cost is still the chip, not the sound.

 

Roy

[Neil]

The cost is an interesting question, it's always puzzled me, especially if this is the case ....

 

I think we can guess some of it by looking at the cost of reblows - which are not that high. I think that major cost is still the chip, not the sound.

Roy

 

.... when you look at the price of cheap mp3 players (sub tenner on everyone's favourite auction site) which are able to store more sound than railway specific sound chips.

[Albie the plumber]

Yes, I get that. It explained the rises over the past year or so, as the pound dropped. How do you explain the recent drop in Howes' prices, when the pound is still relatively low against the euro then?

 

Maybe because their once quite good sound projects have been left behind by the great advances made by others !

[Albie the plumber]

Reminds  me when I paid £117.50 for Loksound V3.5 with Howes Warship sounds (Not that good )

 

The year ? ......2007 !

 

Although we're still paying over £100 for a sound chip , when you take into account inflation ,they haven't gone up much .(just paid £118.50 for a Biffo V4)

Its only the Brexit issue and the consequent effect on the pound/euro exchange rate that has caused  the price to jump by a tenner or so .

Edited December 22, 2017 by Albie the plumber

[jjb1970]

I am guessing the price is a combination of the sort of high production cost associated with a low volume niche product and because the market will pay it. Certainly, if compared with portable music players or even tablet devices you're paying an awful lot for something very simple and basic, but those portable music players, tablets etc are manufactured in much higher numbers which enables much more efficient production and lower costs.

Edited December 21, 2017 by jjb1970

[Shropshire Lad]

Some of my ZIMO sound decoders are 10 years old and have had a goodly amount of features added to them as free upgrades.

Continuous upgrades of firmware isn't cheap and has to be covered by decoder sales.

[johnd]

Price always comes down to profit of the hardware.

 

What the manufactures of the chip wants is a profit from making and selling the decoders.  It doesn't matter to them if the retail price is £100 or £50  decoder. There mantra is sell for as much as we can/dare ie. approx. £100 retail knowing that they will sell. What they are not brave enough to do is reduce the price ,say to £50.00 per decoder and see if they twice as many or more which would possible increase there profits. The down side of selling more is that the market may become fully satisfied and demand may fall, so they would have to increase price to make the same profit again, or more people may go for DCC sound and the sales remain hence profit levels remain.

 

Personally I don't see prices dropping as Manufactures want as much profit as they can extort (Greed). Of course they can argue that the profits go towards development of new ideas !

 

I leave you all to decide but I think you can read my thoughts on the price of sound decoders.

Edited December 22, 2017 by johnd

[coachmann]

While £100 is indeed no small fry, it is a one-off purchase that should give many years of enjoyment. And remember, they can be re-blown should you move away from one of the minor railways to the GWR....

[johnd]

While £100 is indeed no small fry, it is a one-off purchase that should give many years of enjoyment. And remember, they can be re-blown should you move away from one of the minor railways to the GWR....

And that's why the  Sir William to be, left was it.

 

Have a good Christmas and New Year Larry 

Edited December 22, 2017 by johnd