My shelf layout journal

[Conrail Joe]

I got quite a bit accomplished in the past few days. Following my scenery steps from the first phase I added ground goop, And placed the rocks accordingly. The ground hoop is very messy, so thankfully I covered all the track with blue painters tape

[Conrail Joe]

After letting it dry for a day and a half, I painted the rocks. Here’s some advice, I learned something very valuable. In the past I have always used Woodlands Scenics pigments, And followed their method of painting the rocks. I’ve had great success in doing so. This time around I wanted to experiment and follow Mike Confalone’s method of an India ink/isopropyl alcohol wash. Gave me a green gray color which I was happy with. Next step is to use an oil based artist paint for the brown color. I put a little micro dab on the rock, And then used a foam brush soaked in turpentine. It worked excellent, I was amazed With the results. Smell of turpentine has since invaded my house...... not cool!!!!! I’m so glad my wife is not here me for this, she’s in Florida.

 

Yesterday afternoon I received my LED strip lights and install them on the new portion the layout.

 

I am amazed at how Bright they are, so I ordered another set for Phaae I!

 

I then ballasted the track, And made a road on phase I.

[Conrail Joe]

Not gonna lie, I sort of regret adding on Phase II. I feel like it's taken the "charm" out of my existing layout.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Joe,

 

It's your layout, and removing benchwork is just as easy (if not easier) than clipping-more-on...

 

One of the keys of building a really appealing micro/small layout is to keep focus on the central element of appeal,
and strenuously avoid "just piling-on more because... (we can, someone else said we should, more-is-better, etc etc)...:"...

 

...in truth, all you're doing is watering-down the presentation/impact of that initial key element which drew-you-in in the first place...
 

FWIW, YMMV,

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

PS I've gone on-record before as saying that when the layout is small/micro in overall size,
the modeller has to optimise literally every sq inch, because there's soo few of them to work with...
 

...however equally, there _is_ such a thing as "too much" and "excess for excess's sake"...
(strange place to get layout-design advice, but Coco Chanel was onto something...
...and both Lance M and Iain R frequently advise "leaving some blank-space for scene decompression")

[Conrail Joe]

Dear Joe,

 

It's your layout, and removing benchwork is just as easy (if not easier) than clipping-more-on...

 

One of the keys of building a really appealing micro/small layout is to keep focus on the central element of appeal,

and strenuously avoid "just piling-on more because... (we can, someone else said we should, more-is-better, etc etc)...:"...

 

...in truth, all you're doing is watering-down the presentation/impact of that initial key element which drew-you-in in the first place...

 

FWIW, YMMV,

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

 

PS I've gone on-record before as saying that when the layout is small/micro in overall size,

the modeller has to optimise literally every sq inch, because there's soo few of them to work with...

 

...however equally, there _is_ such a thing as "too much" and "excess for excess's sake"...

(strange place to get layout-design advice, but Coco Chanel was onto something...

...and both Lance M and Iain R frequently advise "leaving some blank-space for scene decompression")

Spot on once again. Thank you, I really value your input.

[scouser]

Hello Joe,

great modelling here and you have a wonderful attitude!

Just like to say that when creating anything, if you like it then it's good, if you don't then it isn't.

As the prof. says removing unwanted layout can be easy. It can also be very therapeutic.

Paul

[Conrail Joe]

A few update pics. The cement silos and buildings are just temporary mock ups. I’m not making any big decisions yet, as far as phase II goes though. I have to control my impulses.

 

On another note, I finally figured out a track plan for the Alaska Railroad in HO scale, to fit in a 20 x 40 room. And slowly over the spring and summer, I’m going to start building the fully enclosed 2 x 8 modules as shown in the pictures previously posted.

[Conrail Joe]

I do plan on keeping this layout fully functioning and operating. Having a operating layout while building another one allows you to not rush, because you already have one to operate!

I've already started pouring rock molds. there are SOoooooooooo many rocks in the Kenai mountains!

[Conrail Joe]

I'm pretty sure I've made up my mind, I plan on scrapping phase II. Operational wise, I don't gain that much from it, It's not worth the effort. I gain an extra 8' of mainline that is not really needed. I'll start dismantling it tomorrow. I've made some headway on the Alaska layout. Look for a new thread on that!

[F-UnitMad]

I'm pretty sure I've made up my mind, I plan on scrapping phase II. Operational wise, I don't gain that much from it, It's not worth the effort. I gain an extra 8' of mainline that is not really needed. I'll start dismantling it tomorrow. I've made some headway on the Alaska layout. Look for a new thread on that!

Quite understandable. I've found myself over the years that there's often little to gain from extending small layouts. It might seem strange as space (or lack of!!) always seems an issue, yet a well-designed small layout is operationally "self-sufficient", & beyond extending the length of run (as you note) an extension to a small layout won't add much to it's operational appeal.

What I thought your extension added was the siding(passing loop)- trains can arrive loco leading, & then the loco can run round to switch the original yard as before. The other spur could be abandoned - quite prototypical.!! Of course the length of the loop might restrict overall train length more than the original layout, so actually a retrograde step!!

Anyway Rule 1 applies Enjoy your layout!!

[Conrail Joe]

It’s been an extremely busy month to say the least. The end of the semester is right around the corner, and I’m feeling the crunch!

 

I haven’t done too much to the layout, except add snow. The snow on the trains themselves was just for the picture. The snow on the ground is permanently secured.

 

I did have some free time to run a few turns on the slate. I’ve kind of had a bit of an epiphany and realized that I was not having fun, that it really seemed like work. I attend weekly operating sessions on my friends layouts, and I get my fulfillment for Proto typical ops. The realization was that I do not enjoy doing it by myself at home. After a long day of school work and homework and the stress of every day life, I think what I need to relax is to watch trains run..... i’m not saying I’m going to build a 4 x 8, LOL but rather a continuous loop of sorts, so I can just sit back relax and watch trains.

[Alcanman]

Great pics. The snow looks very effective and adds to the realism.

 

Shame you are no longer enjoying operating your excellent layout although I can understand your reasons. Although 'tail chasers' are not for me, I can understand their appeal.

 

I find that 20 to 30 mins switching, early evening, provides relaxation for me. 

[F-UnitMad]

I feel cold just looking at those photos!! Very, er - atmospheric!!

[J. S. Bach]

That FEC (Florida East Coast) car probably is not liking the snow!!   I, too, like to sit back and just watch and hear the trains run. O scale (2-rail) and metal wheels rule.

Edited April 22, 2018 by J. S. Bach

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Joe,

 

 

 

 I think what I need to relax is to watch trains run..... i’m not saying I’m going to build a 4 x 8, LOL but rather a continuous loop of sorts, so I can just sit back relax and watch trains.

 

So, I think I hear a TVD "Train Shuttle" 

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/trainshuttle.html

in your future....

 

(HINT: Just because it's not a circuit doesn't mean you can't enjoy standing back and watching a train slowly trundle thru the scene without needing constant manual-drive attention!)

 

Please don't think the only way to get "constant running" is to build a loop!!!

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

PS if you happen to be OK with doing a bit of Arduino bashing, you might be able to save some $$ over the RTR TVD solution,

and use the home-bruise version documented by Dr Geoff Bunza over on MRH

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25045 

[Conrail Joe]

Dear Joe,

 

 

So, I think I hear a TVD "Train Shuttle" 

http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/trainshuttle.html

in your future....

 

(HINT: Just because it's not a circuit doesn't mean you can't enjoy standing back and watching a train slowly trundle thru the scene without needing constant manual-drive attention!)

 

Please don't think the only way to get "constant running" is to build a loop!!!

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

 

PS if you happen to be OK with doing a bit of Arduino bashing, you might be able to save some $$ over the RTR TVD solution,

and use the home-bruise version documented by Dr Geoff Bunza over on MRH

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/25045 

I value your input as always. However,,,,,,(this is not directed towards you)

 

I have to say this though. This is a major pet peeve of mine with our hobby. As long as I am having fun, why does it matter if it is a loop? The hobby means something different to everyone. I operate prototypically every thursday night on my friends fantastic layouts, some of which have been and will be in magazines. I bet I've operated at more prototypical op sessions then 85% of the people on these forums. I enjoy prototypical ops. To unwind in my own house, If I want to see a train run, and it's on a loop of track, who cares??!!!

 

I'm going to continue on my rant. this pet peeve of mine is also about the people who bash 4x8 layouts. why? why? why? It is so easy for a newcomer to get into our hobby, and get them up and running in no time. Our hobby is dying a slow painful death. sorry, but it is true. why not encourage newcomers and get them up and running trains quickly? who cares if its a loop??!!! If they have fun, then it's a win, win. it annoys me to see experienced modelers discouraging newcomers about building a 4 x 8, because something better could be built in the same space. better for who? the newcomer? SAYS WHO?? 

 

We need to encourage our hobby even if its not what we prefer to do with our own layouts. Model railroadingis something different to everyone. Once the person is up and running, make some suggestions on how they can operate their layout more proto typically.

 

Rant over. lol!!

[shortliner]

<Rant on>

Dear Joe - sorry but I can't disagree with you more - I honestly think that the "sacred" 4 x 8 is probably one of the biggest killers of model railroading (certainly in UK!) It is big, unwieldy, takes up a huge amount of room in the "normal" UK house, and once erected is almost impossible to get out of the room in one piece, or to move for cleaning, and will cause family arguments between Husbands and Wives for all those reasons. There are lots of much smaller ideas (see Carls scarapbooks) that can be far more "house friendly", and provide an equal amount of fun. 

<Rant off> LOL

 

I'm standing by to be shot at - but as someone who moved around the world/countryevery couple of years (Ex-Miliitary), this is one problem I DO understand very well!

Edited May 7, 2018 by shortliner

[Zomboid]

There is certainly a perception in the UK amongst those that don't actually have a model railway that it should be some kind of circuit on something like a 4x8. I know I had that idea for some time, and didn't have any kind of model railway until I realised that this was not true.

 

I wouldn't say that a 4x8 is the wrong choice, or that a loop is the wrong choice, as everyone has different circumstances and requirements. I don't see any harm in challenging those assumptions and pointing out alternatives though, even if they are ultimately dismissed then the idea being out there could help someone else.

 

Ultimately none of us has any problem with what anyone else does within the hobby, and such posts are intended to help people get the most from it. So if you want to watch trains circulate on a loop on a 4x8 then go for it. If your requirement is just that trains keep moving rather than circulate, then there are other ways using automation to achieve that, but it doesn't mean that a loop isn't a good solution. Just enjoy yourself, I'm extremely unlikely to ever operate your railroad, so it really doesn't matter to me what you do

[DanielB]

I have built all kinds of layouts, from a room filling "basement empire" at a local club (I left the club as I got bored of the basement empire!), to an N scale micro layout on an 18" long shelf, to a round the walls HO scale layout, and now on to an O scale shelf style switching layout, and they all have their own pros and cons.

 

There's no right or wrong way to make a layout, so long as you have fun. If you lay track on your living room floor, so long as thats fun for you there's no problem. I think the "problem" comes from when we share our hobby online. Carpet layouts might be fun, but they are sure boring to look at in photos, and I think that's a key factor in these arguments.

 

We share images of our layouts online for feedback, constructive criticism, to inspire others and just to show off the layouts we're so proud of. The issue comes that some of the folk we share those images with might feel entitled to view those images, and by nature, feel disappointed if they don't meet THEIR idea of what makes a good layout.

 

As a whole, we need to be more accepting of things that we might not necessarily like. If you see something online that doesn't fit quite right with you, it's totally fine to say "I'd have done that like this instead..." with the genuine intention of trying to encourage and inspire the builder to maybe try a technique they perhaps hadn't considered. It's not fine to say "that's crap" or "my opinion is better than yours because it falls in with the general social consensus" (e.g. "don't build a 4x8, they're not real railroads"), and it's just wrong.

 

Rule number one - it's my railroad, I'll do what I like.

 

I'd LOVE to build another 4x8 (I built one in N scale but I simply didn't have the room to have an "island" layout in the middle of the room. If I had the room, damn right I'd build another. They are fun as hell to operate. Take the MRR Virginian project for example, it's a really great operational layout for a single operator, deceptively so.

 

But anyway, I digress. End of rant, no offence intended to anyone. I just want to maybe change peoples perspectives on things. If that doesn't work for you, then that's fine too. Rule number one, after all!

[Regularity]

Ultimately none of us has any problem with what anyone else does within the hobby

A good point.

The other side of this is we can’t “expect” (demand in many cases!) others to “approve”, appreciate or even show the slightest interest in what we do.

Your “rule one” may not have the same outcome as anyone else’s “rule one”...

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Joe,

 

Apologies for causing angst! Please don't mishear me, I'm not saying that you can't /shouldn't have a circuit of track if you so wish,

 

But you've already had at least one foray into extending the layout which did not bear fruit/immediately became obvious that it detracted from the factors which "got you in" in the first place,

 

I was just fearful that in the chase to get "continuous running", you might "compromise the vision" again,

(another "add, then subtract extra benchwork" cycle of wasted time/effort/$$)

 

When solutions to get "continuous unattended movement",

(so you can just stand-alone and "watch the train run", a la "Brooklyn: 3AM"),

 

On the existing point-2-point schematic

(IE without significant track arrangement/capacity change)

 

are very-much available at various pricepoint and deployment-complexity levels...

 

IE you can have the (cake?) unadulterated "layout you love and can-live-with" which inspired you in the first place,

 

and the single-flick-of-switch ability to run either full-manual or hands-off-shuttle (eat it) too...

 

Of course, if you know you have the room for some form of circuit,

(and obviously you know what space and "political/domestic boundaries" are in-place much more acutely than any of us looking-on "from the peanut gallery" ;-)

)

 

without unduly detracting from "what you loved about the layout the first place" or creating access issues,

 

then by-all-means go for it...

 

Either way, looking forward to see "where it goes next" ;-)

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

 

PS I'm currently kicking off a new layout build, which will play host to 5x trains, from two different RRs, on a p2p schematic "5.5' x 4' + staging" show layout. I'm compromising my gut-level wants in order to enable a DCC solution, but I know it can work... ;-)

[F-UnitMad]

This "8ft x 4ft" thing creates "issues" depending on which side of The Pond one resides.

In the USA, houses are generally much bigger than in the UK, & even if there isn't a basement there may be a good size spare room or even a big garage available, where an 8x4 board can easily be set up and accessed. As you generally need a 2ft "aisle" to comfortably be next to your layout, an 8x4 really needs a space of at least 10ft x 8ft (assuming one 4ft end is against a wall) to be workable.

In the UK, a great many houses won't have anything like that sort of free space available. My 3rd bedroom or 'spare room' is a mere 7ft x 6ft, & access to it, up the stairs and through a narrow door, means getting a single bed in there was difficult, let alone a solid-top layout board!!

A poor UK compromise design was a board 6ft x 4ft, & many plans used to be drawn up for such a space, but very often with a hole ("operating well") cut in the middle. So going back to the 8x4 - which actually takes up 10x8 - clearly a better use of that space is a round-the-walls layout, but that may not be something a beginner appreciates, & in the UK I bet there's many would-be railway modellers who never get going due to a perception that 1) they don't have enough space, & 2) that model trains must go round in circles - the 'train set legacy'. So it is a problem for the future of the hobby, if one thinks about it that way.

Hence why on a Forum such as this, which is UK based, you'll find people wary of 8x4 sheets and train set ovals. It's a bit like US modellers used to massive basement empires being wary of smaller & simpler shelf layouts, that's all.

Edited May 8, 2018 by F-UnitMad

[Conrail Joe]

Dear Joe,

 

Apologies for causing angst! Please don't mishear me, I'm not saying that you can't /shouldn't have a circuit of track if you so wish,

 

But you've already had at least one foray into extending the layout which did not bear fruit/immediately became obvious that it detracted from the factors which "got you in" in the first place,

 

I was just fearful that in the chase to get "continuous running", you might "compromise the vision" again,

(another "add, then subtract extra benchwork" cycle of wasted time/effort/$$)

 

When solutions to get "continuous unattended movement",

(so you can just stand-alone and "watch the train run", a la "Brooklyn: 3AM"),

 

On the existing point-2-point schematic

(IE without significant track arrangement/capacity change)

 

are very-much available at various pricepoint and deployment-complexity levels...

 

IE you can have the (cake?) unadulterated "layout you love and can-live-with" which inspired you in the first place,

 

and the single-flick-of-switch ability to run either full-manual or hands-off-shuttle (eat it) too...

 

Of course, if you know you have the room for some form of circuit,

(and obviously you know what space and "political/domestic boundaries" are in-place much more acutely than any of us looking-on "from the peanut gallery" ;-)

)

 

without unduly detracting from "what you loved about the layout the first place" or creating access issues,

 

then by-all-means go for it...

 

Either way, looking forward to see "where it goes next" ;-)

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

 

PS I'm currently kicking off a new layout build, which will play host to 5x trains, from two different RRs, on a p2p schematic "5.5' x 4' + staging" show layout. I'm compromising my gut-level wants in order to enable a DCC solution, but I know it can work... ;-)

 

Sorry, I've been away for awhile finishing up my semester at school! Sorry, I hope my post did not seem as if it were directed towards you, because it truly wasn't! I value your input, and I need to be kept in reality from time to time!

 

Our hobby is funny. I've been into it seriously for over ten years, and have operated hundreds of times on amazing layouts. I want everything depending on how the mood strikes me. Somedays I want a lashup of 3-4 modern diesels hooking up to some intermodals for a 180 mile run from Boston to Albany, Other days I'd like to just run from Nevins yard in Framingham to Westboro yard with a cut of HFCS tank cars and spend an hour switching. I want my layout to be able to support a few of my good friends for a monthly operating session. Yet at the same time, I do not want my layout to be impossible to operate alone.

 

I do believe I have decided on a prototype, The Boston & Albany mainline. (The Boston Line) I'm leaning towards Conrail in the mid 90's, most likely early spring time1996 (Iam DONE attempting to model winter) when the SD80MACS were first being tested. I was 18 years old in 1996, and my high school buddies and I would spend hours down along the B&A Mainline tracks fishing in Brookfield Ma. Well, they were fishing, I was railfanning! The layout will have to be modular, for a move within the next 2-5 years. Within the coming weeks I'll be posting up a new thread with track plans, drawings of the room and so on.

[Conrail Joe]

[Wendell1976]

This "8ft x 4ft" thing creates "issues" depending on which side of The Pond one resides.

In the USA, houses are generally much bigger than in the UK, & even if there isn't a basement there may be a good size spare room or even a big garage available, where an 8x4 board can easily be set up and accessed. As you generally need a 2ft "aisle" to comfortably be next to your layout, an 8x4 really needs a space of at least 10ft x 8ft (assuming one 4ft end is against a wall) to be workable.

In the UK, a great many houses won't have anything like that sort of free space available. My 3rd bedroom or 'spare room' is a mere 7ft x 6ft, & access to it, up the stairs and through a narrow door, means getting a single bed in there was difficult, let alone a solid-top layout board!!

A poor UK compromise design was a board 6ft x 4ft, & many plans used to be drawn up for such a space, but very often with a hole ("operating well") cut in the middle. So going back to the 8x4 - which actually takes up 10x8 - clearly a better use of that space is a round-the-walls layout, but that may not be something a beginner appreciates, & in the UK I bet there's many would-be railway modellers who never get going due to a perception that 1) they don't have enough space, & 2) that model trains must go round in circles - the 'train set legacy'. So it is a problem for the future of the hobby, if one thinks about it that way.

Hence why on a Forum such as this, which is UK based, you'll find people wary of 8x4 sheets and train set ovals. It's a bit like US modellers used to massive basement empires being wary of smaller & simpler shelf layouts, that's all.

I had just found this thread this last weekend. I have read the last few comments about 4X8 layouts. As an American who was born and raised an urbanite(Los Angeles area), I have mixed feelings about 4X8 layouts. If a person has the room to build a 4X8 layout with a continuous run of track, go for it. If I had the extra room to build a 4X8 layout in the home that I am living in, I would build that layout in N scale using Kato Unitrack. Building a 4X8 layout in N scale would give a person a longer main line plus room for staging tracks. However, not everyone has the extra space to build a 4X8 in their living quarters. Most urbanites here in The States and Canada(e.g.- Angelenos, New Yorkers, Vancouverites(B.C.), Torontonians) do not have the extra room to build a 4X8, not even a 4X6. The mainstream paper magazines such as Model Railroader need to help more beginners understand that there are other alternatives to having a layout besides a 4X6 or a 4X8. Shelf switching layouts such as Inglenooks are the way to go for most urbanites and people that don't have the extra space for a large layout.

 

Wendell

Idaho, USA