Ground frame on or near tramway platform

[47137]

My layout is going to have a tramway platform beside a turnout, between the two white pins here:

 

There will also be a full-height railway platform (block of wood) and a public foot crossing between the two platforms (the two red pins). The line will be used for freight operations and occasional passenger trains too.

 

I’m intending to put a 2-lever ground frame for the turnout (FPL + points), and I’m wondering if there could be an operational reason to locate the ground frame some distance away from the points, to the left of the foot crossing?

 

The reason for asking is mainly because putting the GF there would look better (aesthetically), and not seem to crowd onto the tramway platform. But also the imaginary shunter will be walking across the tracks, possibly using the foot crossing, but not necessarily wanting to walk all the way to the points.

 

Any guidance here would be helpful. I know there are few tramways with railway operations along them, but I don’t have room to split the operations onto separate tracks. Operation here will be very much ‘one engine in steam’. It would be a shame to put effort into adding a feature in the wrong place.

 

- Richard.

[JDW]

That seems a very odd arrangement to me, it seems highly unlikely that a tram platform would straddle a set of points like that.  More likely it would be to the left opposite the other platform, or to the right beyond the toe of the points.  If the arrangement must be as you have it, I'd say it is more likely that the ground frame would be next to the points on the opposite side to the platform.  But I have to wonder too whether a lever frame with FPL would be used in that situation anyway, where regular trams and passenger trains in service are using the line.  

[47137]

More than a few things on my layout are a bit odd :-) Nothing is 'compulsory' but I do want to have four distinct destinations for traffic in the few square feet available, and the tram platform fits neatly here because it will be next to a bus stop in front of it. I can create some fiction to justify the location of the tram platform, it might be simply the turnout is about to be removed altogether or something to do with difficult ground conditions nearby.

 

The lever frame is more difficult. My whole system is primarily a railway, and this part of it is railway over which trams run to provide a passenger service. The tram service will be regular and indeed frequent; but suspended on-demand when the railway needs a freight movement. So I reckon, the points would be worked locally by the staff responsible for the freight train, rather than remotely from the imaginary panel which manages the rest of the tramway system.

 

It sounds like the ground frame is optional, or at least its presence will need more explaining than is absence. Many thanks.

 

- Richard.

[The Stationmaster]

More than a few things on my layout are a bit odd :-) Nothing is 'compulsory' but I do want to have four distinct destinations for traffic in the few square feet available, and the tram platform fits neatly here because it will be next to a bus stop in front of it. I can create some fiction to justify the location of the tram platform, it might be simply the turnout is about to be removed altogether or something to do with difficult ground conditions nearby.

 

The lever frame is more difficult. My whole system is primarily a railway, and this part of it is railway over which trams run to provide a passenger service. The tram service will be regular and indeed frequent; but suspended on-demand when the railway needs a freight movement. So I reckon, the points would be worked locally by the staff responsible for the freight train, rather than remotely from the imaginary panel which manages the rest of the tramway system.

 

It sounds like the ground frame is optional, or at least its presence will need more explaining than is absence. Many thanks.

 

- Richard.

 

If it's a railway then the lever frame has to be adjacent to the points (so that the person operating the levers can see that the points have closed correctly - normally the FPL would only bolt in one port and not lock the points when they're set towards the siding).

[Joseph_Pestell]

I don't think tramways need FPLs at all. So just a point lever (usually removable with a metal plate covering the mechanism).

[47137]

If it's a railway then the lever frame has to be adjacent to the points (so that the person operating the levers can see that the points have closed correctly - normally the FPL would only bolt in one port and not lock the points when they're set towards the siding).

It is a railway on which some passenger services are fulfilled by railway trains, but most are fulfilled by a tram.

 

One leg of the turnout goes to the platform for passenger trains, and the other leg is for trams. During normal operation, the points will be set and locked for the route used by the tram. The points will be unlocked and moved to the other route for movements of parcels, general merchandise and other freight into the passenger platform, and for shunting.

 

The passenger platform will be used by passenger trains for specials and occasional weekend workings when the tram's electrical power system is undergoing maintenance.

 

So I wonder ... do I really need three levers - two FPLs and one for the points? Or perhaps, the points would be manually clamped into position for the exceptional occasions when a train carrying passengers is to run into the passenger platform?

 

- Richard.

[Nearholmer]

It sounds like a tramway over which a few trains happen to operate, to me, and I don't think that, historically, tramways had to have FPLs ...... if I was the owning company that might otherwise have to fork-out for FPLs, that would be my take on it.

 

That law on tramways historically was mind-bogglingly complicated (the basic textbook on the topic was about 700 pages of ifs, buts, and maybes), so much less clear than for railways, so it ought to give you plenty of hiding places and room for manoeuvre!

 

If this place represents the boundary between a passenger railway and tramway, one thing you will need is a 'trap', to prevent vehicles straying from the tramway, which will be operated on 'line of sight', onto the railway, which will be under some sort of block operation. You could use your point for this, but the tramway people would probably be happier to be protected from runaway railway wagons too, so better a trap-point between your railway platform and the tramway.

 

You probably also need a gate across the line, because tramways generally weren't fenced, but railways (nearly always) were.

 

And, in theory at least, any railway locos coming onto the tramway need to comply with the law/guidance for team engines, so skirts, front fenders, a bell, and a speed-limiter, but there were numerous cases of exception.

 

Off-hand, the only case that I can think of where tramway passenger vehicles operated from something that was legally a tramway onto something that was legally a railway was Wisbech station (everyone will now chip-in with oodles of other examples), but there were a few cases where railway passenger vehicles operated through onto something that was legally a tramway, notably around docks/piers.

 

Kevin (the things you do when you're waiting to be sure the children are fully asleep on Christmas Eve!)

[47137]

... but there were a few cases where railway passenger vehicles operated through onto something that was legally a tramway, notably around docks/piers.

 

Kevin (the things you do when you're waiting to be sure the children are fully asleep on Christmas Eve!)

This sounds like an excellent rationale to me!

The line is a work of fiction, and I am sure it is easiest for me to compose an explanation of its status, and include this in the history of the system.

 

I am not fully asleep yet, but I probably should be :-)

 

- Richard.

[Nearholmer]

Ditto ..... this playing FC business involves playing the long game.

 

Anyway, here is your excuse for a tram on a railway, in a picture.

 

I hope I'm right and that this really was 'railway' territory, because it's just occurred to me that Wisbech station might have had a 'railway side' and a 'tramway side', wherein different laws applied, separated by suitable trapping, with only the locos and goods wagons crossing between the two.

 

To me, there seems to be something unusual about that signal on the left in relation to the points ..... I'm wondering if it is a 'level crossing indicator', for a place where a tramway crosses a road.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Nearholmer

[JDW]

Ditto ..... this playing FC business involves playing the long game.

 

Anyway, here is your excuse for a tram on a railway, in a picture.

 

I hope I'm right and that this really was 'railway' territory, because it's just occurred to me that Wisbech station might have had a 'railway side' and a 'tramway side', wherein different laws applied, separated by suitable trapping, with only the locos and goods wagons crossing between the two.

 

To me, there seems to be something unusual about that signal on the left in relation to the points ..... I'm wondering if it is a 'level crossing indicator', for a place where a tramway crosses a road.

 

Without knowing Wisbech, my first thought is that the platform is a lot lower than normal, so maybe you're right about there being a "railway" side with normal platforms and a tramway side with lower ones.  Either way, its an interesting picture.  

[Nearholmer]

Well, I've found a signalling diagram for Wisbech https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=914

 

And, it looks to me as if the tramway side was 'tramway' rather than 'railway', and that the signal on the left applied to the 'back platform road, for a move onto 'railway'.

 

So, having shot away my only example, I now can't think of anywhere that tramcars ran onto a railway. Anyone else?

[47137]

I might have used better words in my opening post, perhaps "My layout is going to have a low, tramway-style platform ...".

 

The local government has (in my fiction) bought a Bombardier 'Flexity' tram to provide a passenger service for the island's new tourist industry. So really, the tram runs much like a train; it might have been a two-coach EMU but the low platforms and articulated construction suit the railway. The Flexity runs along a railway line which is otherwise a freight-only operation with occasional loco-hauled substitute services and enthusiast excursions.

 

I am reluctant to use a lack of precedent to dictate how my railway runs, but I do agree a 700-page manual is going to be too challenging to work through and cite in any detail. There are real places in Great Britain where unmodified railway trains run on lines which are designated as tramways, for example the crossing between the two stations in Sheringham, and I expect the reverse is true too i.e. a tram on a railway, somewhere in the World if not here. I reckon, if the vehicle fits the track and the loading gauge, and its route is defined and learnt, and the driver can see the signals, then it is game on. If the tram has been equipped with railway signalling equipment (perhaps TPWS) then I'll write this into the fiction.

 

All I really wanted to know about is the facing point lock, and Mike has explained the location of the lever must let the shunter see the points. I'll put a lever for a single FPL on the route used by the tram, and any passenger traffic on the other route will be permitted when the points are clamped.

 

The ground frame will be on a patch of ground, opposite the tram platform, and if the line is ever "modernised" then the frame can come out, a patch of grass can go down in its place and there won't be a scar on the model platform.

 

- Richard.

[47137]

Most of two months on from my original post, I have the point and the tramway platform and I have still managed to back myself into a corner. The lever frame could go here:

 

Or here:

 

If I put the frame beside the railway, it seems too close to the tie bar - there is no room for the rodding to the facing point lock a few sleepers back. The location is constrained by the mast for the overhead line, which pretty much has to be here to support the wire as it goes around the curve, cannot move to the left because a baseboard support is in the way, and cannot move to the right because it will get too close to the mast at the end of the baseboard.

 

If I put the lever frame on the platform, it would give a reason to model the covers for the ducting across the platform and this will make the platform surface easier  (block paving intended) because I can have a visible join across it. Also the rodding will be underneath the platform i.e. not modelled at all.

 

If we accept the platform is used by trams and  is located beside the points, could anyone suggest which location for the lever frame is the least unprototypical?

 

- Richard.

Edited February 21, 2018 by 47137

[47137]

I ended up with the ground frame beside the track. This leaves space on the platform for a bench seat when I can find a suitable model.

 

The turnout here is one of the Peco bullhead ones, with new timbers from copperclad.

 

- Richard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gordon A]

That looks fine, especially as in post 12 you have indicated that it is a railway using a tram to provide a passenger service, so railway rules apply, which include a FPL. 

Gordon A

[Grovenor]

All I really wanted to know about is the facing point lock, and Mike has explained the location of the lever must let the shunter see the points. I'll put a lever for a single FPL on the route used by the tram, and any passenger traffic on the other route will be permitted when the points are clamped.

A single fpl can bolt the points in either position if both routes are used by passenger trains. You just have to cut two notches in the stretcher bar for the bolt to enter. Stationmaster Mike was explaining that provision may not be made to bolt a route used only by freight, in which case only one notch would be cut.

Bolting for both routes does not involve two fpls.

There will be no difficulty with the rodding from your chosen ground frame position.

Regards