Mousa Models future production

[billbedford]

I agree to a certain extent with you that to produce something it's good to know the demand, but I noted in a previous comment by Bill that he hadn't chased small amounts but might think again if it was a £1000. 

With near 100 kits 'in preparation' and some never to be produced the £1000 Bill said "would make him think differently" is here, but the other way round as he holds it.

  

 I don't understand what you are getting at here

 

No individual has ever ordered 1000 kits, and when there have been instances where one person has ordered substantial numbers of a wagon, ie 30-50, then obviously that wagon goes to the top of the list and it becomes a priority.

 

 FYI there are nothing like 100 kits 'in preparation' it's more like around 40 wagons and a dozen coaches.

 

For clarity I have not ordered from BB and won't, I was going to make a deposit on a couple of kits but an email response made it clear that although deposits were able to be taken (and still are 15 months on) the item(s) in question were unlikely to ever be made.

 

That's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Telling all and sundry that they shouldn't order a kit because 'it is never going to be made' is as good a way as any of ensuring that is it never going to be made.

 

I wish I had your crystal ball.

Edited December 24, 2017 by billbedford

[micklner]

I pre ordered one kit from you. You ignored all my subsequent emails asking what was happening with the order. I also find your manner appalling on numerous occasions.

 

Guess what you won't be getting any further business from me .

 

 

You won't need a Crystal Ball for that one.

 

 

 

 

edit

 

Whilst looking for something else today. I found on one of my pages ,a excellent example of Bedfords delightful attitude to customers relating to LNER O4 Loco Bodies halfway down the page. This dates from 2012 now coming up to 6 years for people who placed deposits on these kits !! Total disgrace.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/943-lner-models-in-4mm/page-20

Edited December 31, 2017 by micklner

[Craigw]

I pre ordered one kit from you. You ignored all my subsequent emails asking what was happening with the order. I also find your manner appalling on numerous occasions.

 

Guess what you won't be getting any further business from me .

 

 

You won't need a Crystal Ball for that one.

 

I have pre-ordered a number of kits from Bill Bedford. I have always received replies to emails and when the items hit production they are sent to me with out having been paid for and an invoice included.

 

He will be getting more orders from me and a crystal ball is not required for that either.

 

Yes, the models may take a while to reach fruition, but I would suggest that if a few people who read the various pre grouping wagon threads coughed up some money for a kit or two then things might get to the production stage rather quicker.

 

Craig W

[Clearwater]

Bill

 

I’m sure many small traders share your frustration at being criticised in forums. I’ll be honest. I opened this thread expecting to read when you were putting certain kits into production as opposed to continuing a disagreement with another forum user.

 

I’m sure I speak for many when I say I wish you luck in bringing kits to market and I’m sure i’ll buy some of them where they intersect with my own interests. However, reading an argument about production schedules and

monies owed does not endear me to your business. I’d strongly suggest that you turn the other cheek to negative comments and stick to using your posts to positively publicise your excellent products

 

David

[chris p bacon]

As a business owner I'm very surprised that you should wish to question my post in a dedicated thread, I actually thought I was going to read a thread about your production timescales.
  

 I don't understand what you are getting at here

 

 

My original post you've quoted was in the Coopercraft thread, in that thread you were at odds with those that seek to stop him trading with a website whereby he can take monies and not supply goods. One of the responses made by yourself was that you had written off small amounts but might think differently if the amount were £1000. I merely pointed out the reverse position you held, whereby many individuals had deposited small sums with you but that it added up to just short of a thousand pounds, with many of the items probably never going to see the light of day.

 

No individual has ever ordered 1000 kits, and when there have been instances where one person has ordered substantial numbers of a wagon, ie 30-50, then obviously that wagon goes to the top of the list and it becomes a priority.

 

 

I never said anyone ordered a 1000 kits. 

 FYI there are nothing like 100 kits 'in preparation' it's more like around 40 wagons and a dozen coaches.

 

 

Your own website listed 100 kits 'in preparation' on Friday, I checked before posting. 

 

 

That's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Telling all and sundry that they shouldn't order a kit because 'it is never going to be made' is as good a way as any of ensuring that is it never going to be made.

 

 

My post came about because you were defending an individual whose business practices have become less than honourable, that made me look at your own website as when I had looked before it come across more as a 'wish list' 

I have seen one of your more recent products in the flesh and was impressed, I looked to order a couple but you only had limited stock of one and none of the other, I wrote and asked about future production.

 

I have two of the brake composites left, and none of the brake thirds. 
I'm not sure, at the moment, if I will be re-running either of these 
kits in the foreseeable future, However I will be producing a brake 
composite, which was more common than the brake third, and a full brake 
later in 2017.

 

This reply from you was over 12 months ago and it's quite clear that you're unlikely to produce another batch of either product, and yet on your website I can leave a deposit for them. I won't comment on the other 2 products you also mentioned for 2017 which haven't materialised but I'm able to make a deposit on.

 

I would say that if you are trying to imply that I'm attempting to hurt your business in any way then I'm afraid that you're able to do that all by yourself without any help from others. My own experience of your early work nearly put me off kit building for life, part way through the build I remember emailing and asking a question as there were no instructions and the reply you sent was "if you need instructions you shouldn't be attempting it'  I'm not alone in having a reply such as this and I know of some that have sent etches back as unbuildable. I think the replies you made on the CC thread have also raised a few eyebrows and made people think about your own attitude to trading.

 

I know there are many here who are happy with your products and the more recent ones do look very good, they also seem happy to pay a deposit and wait for some months (even years) before receiving them, so quite why you want to continue this from another thread is beyond me as it makes no commercial sense whatsoever.

 

I wish I had your crystal ball.

 

It works fine but I don't lend it out, I'm happy to take a deposit on it, but I'm not sure when I'll deliver it.

 

[Jub45565]

To be fair, Bill is quite open on his site as to his trading practices. There is a number of deposits taken & number required before any chance of development progression.

 

I had some deposits for 3D printed wheelers some years ago, & when these were shelved although I didn't specifically get my money returned it was automatically deducted from my next order.

[PaulCheffus]

To be fair, Bill is quite open on his site as to his trading practices. There is a number of deposits taken & number required before any chance of development progression.

I had some deposits for 3D printed wheelers some years ago, & when these were shelved although I didn't specifically get my money returned it was automatically deducted from my next order.

Hi

 

So what would happen to your money if you didn't order anything from him again?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[jjb1970]

At the risk of asking an obvious question, why take a deposit for an expression of interest? Surely you can just log expressions of interest, then when the EOIs hit a magic number press the metaphorical green button and at that point invite deposits?

[hayfield]

At the risk of asking an obvious question, why take a deposit for an expression of interest? Surely you can just log expressions of interest, then when the EOIs hit a magic number press the metaphorical green button and at that point invite deposits?

 

 

I guess its a bit like what came first, the chicken or egg.  A lot of these small suppliers are modellers who make things for themselves then supply to others, this is fine if you have a day job. On the other hand if you are trying to make a living out of it it must be a benefit to know if the product you are producing will sell. Quite often many show an interest in a product, but for whatever reason that's as far as it goes, a deposit shows a commitment to buy. My old firm gave us a free Christmas party, however those going were expected to pay a deposit. That way the owner knew how many would turn up (money was not wasted on no shows) and the deposit's were spent on gifts for our partners. Everyone knew why deposits were required and were happy they were used for extra gifts

 

Providing someone has clear trading terms, then it is up to the individual to make up there own mind. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

At the risk of asking an obvious question, why take a deposit for an expression of interest? Surely you can just log expressions of interest, then when the EOIs hit a magic number press the metaphorical green button and at that point invite deposits?

For the simple reason that many who express an interest in a forthcoming product, often don't buy one when it is available. There may be several genuine reasons, change of modelling interests, financial situation, etc. but there is also the "enthusiastic outburst", followed by  "indifference". This view is based on more than twenty years assisting a kit manufacturer.

 

This seems to affect the Small Supplier, but judging by the frothing over RTR products, may not apply with Chinese imports.

[Bucoops]

I would agree that the Mousa site is a little strange, but at least it is clear at the point of ordering when/if you are likely to receive the product and a small deposit is taken rather than a full product cost. Is taking a deposit for a prospective product the right way to do it? Debatable, but it would probably prevent someone pre-ordering one of everything with little actual prospect of following up with the full payment?

 

At some point when I'm a little more up to speed with building kits I would like to order some coach bits. I would however like to see more information on the site (and this is the same for other sites that sell coach kits in different levels of completeness). Coach sides are fine - but what's actually in a coach etch kit? What's needed to complete? What's in a coach kit? What's needed to complete?

 

I'm sure people who have built many kits don't need the info, but occasional builders or new to the range do. Whilst I'd much prefer a one-stop shop for a complete kit (minus wheels, paint and transfer of course) I do understand that that's not always practical.

[chris p bacon]

I don't have a problem with a deposit if there is a very good chance of production.

 

With EOI I do wonder that in the case of a small supplier it might be better to ask for EOI and when enough have registered an interest to then ask for a deposit with a definite timescale, if insufficient numbers don't come up with the actual deposit then the project is shelved with deposits returned or registered to another product.

[Clearwater]

For the simple reason that many who express an interest in a forthcoming product, often don't buy one when it is available. There may be several genuine reasons, change of modelling interests, financial situation, etc. but there is also the "enthusiastic outburst", followed by  "indifference". This view is based on more than twenty years assisting a kit manufacturer.

 

This seems to affect the Small Supplier, but judging by the frothing over RTR products, may not apply with Chinese imports.

I recall when SeFinecasr announced a 517, there was a lengthy thread. Also the length of the coopercraft thread, suggests a degree of frustration that certain products are not available. I don’t have the technical skills to design a kit but I do buy them. If I did have those skills, I’d be looking to replace certain elements of the coopercraft/slaters/blacksmith range. An announcement t hat effect would generate a lot of froth!

 

David

[Colin_McLeod]

My old firm gave us a free Christmas party, however those going were expected to pay a deposit. That way the owner knew how many would turn up (money was not wasted on no shows) and the deposit's were spent on gifts for our partners. Everyone knew why deposits were required and were happy they were used for extra gifts

 

 

But you all knew when Christmas was coming, unlike the products of Dunn and Bedford.

[Downer]

I paid two £5 deposits several years ago for planned resin loco bodies, and have never heard a single word since. Not a lot of money, but galling nevertheless. 

[chris p bacon]

  

That's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Telling all and sundry that they shouldn't order a kit because 'it is never going to be made' is as good a way as any of ensuring that is it never going to be made.

 

Seems you've already got that covered.

 

I paid two £5 deposits several years ago for planned resin loco bodies, and have never heard a single word since. Not a lot of money, but galling nevertheless. 

 

 

I didn't even look at the loco's just the carriages and wagons. But looking just now reveals another half a dozen 'in preparation' with 30+ deposits.

 

I know how much work I can get done in my full time job and also how long it takes to draw and get etched items for myself, just how realistic are the various 'in preparation' for actual production.

[jjb1970]

A few years ago I got burned by a small supplier in another field, since then I have been loathe to get involved with companies that ask for up front deposits unless it is a company I have a high degree of confidence in and there is an agreed date of delivery. I tend to avoid pre-order models (the NRM/Rapido APT being the exception) and am not interested in crowd funding. I understand why small manufacturers like things like up front deposits, however I think there is a fundamental difference between taking a deposit for something which is actually being produced and taking a deposit for an EOI. All of this is just to de-risk projects and transfers risk to consumers. Personally I am happier for a company to price risk into the selling price and carry their own risk even if that means higher prices, but that is just my opinion.

[Oldddudders]

This seems to affect the Small Supplier, but judging by the frothing over RTR products, may not apply with Chinese imports.

Oh, it does! For every anticipative salivation there is a cold-water snub. The chimney is the wrong shape, there are rivets - or, ye gods! splashers! - where they didn’t oughter be, it’s the wrong shade, the handrails are crap, the underframe gubbins (technical term) is on the wrong side, it doesn’t go nearly fast enough (yes, lots of verification for that one), and let’s not forget the tender with the frames on backwards. All of these and more have been quoted by disillusioned members as reasons for not buying the killer model they had so longed for. Life on planet RTR is truly tough.

[Junctionmad]

A few years ago I got burned by a small supplier in another field, since then I have been loathe to get involved with companies that ask for up front deposits unless it is a company I have a high degree of confidence in and there is an agreed date of delivery. I tend to avoid pre-order models (the NRM/Rapido APT being the exception) and am not interested in crowd funding. I understand why small manufacturers like things like up front deposits, however I think there is a fundamental difference between taking a deposit for something which is actually being produced and taking a deposit for an EOI. All of this is just to de-risk projects and transfers risk to consumers. Personally I am happier for a company to price risk into the selling price and carry their own risk even if that means higher prices, but that is just my opinion.

Crowd fundraising is now an established way to fund projects that otherwise would be unlikely to be produced. Kickstarter snd indigogo are testimony to that popularity.

 

personally , I like the kickstarter model where unless you meet the fund goal, all money is refunded.

 

But either way , once the situation is made clear upfront , I see no issues, its my risk , the sums are comparitively small , it's all voluntary participation. I've had one or two fail , but that has in no way put me off the concept

[Mallard60022]

I've never had any problems with Bill's service. In fact I really enjoy using his sides for coach conversions (mainly); they are inexpensive and very well detailed and if I #### one up it isn't the end of the world to just get some more.

I placed a 'deposit' for a particular Maunsell many moons ago, possibly before Hornby introduced their versions; I think it was £2. I couldn't give a to## if that £2 never produces a result. Some people pay more than that by far for Lottery tickets or for half a pint of weak #### stuff called Lager.

Climb down off yer soapboxes and spread some love at Christmas.

Santa.

[Jub45565]

Hi

 

So what would happen to your money if you didn't order anything from him again?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Well I'm sure if I was bothered & had asked I'd gave got my £2.50 back anyway... otherwise, see Phil's response!

 

I appreciate that it isn't always the value that counts - but that works both ways. By being willing it shows actual intent to still want the product when it arrives, rather than internet wishing (or worse, proactive trolling).

 

All rather different to the sorry saga on the other thread.

[jjb1970]

Crowd fundraising is now an established way to fund projects that otherwise would be unlikely to be produced. Kickstarter snd indigogo are testimony to that popularity.

 

personally , I like the kickstarter model where unless you meet the fund goal, all money is refunded.

 

But either way , once the situation is made clear upfront , I see no issues, its my risk , the sums are comparitively small , it's all voluntary participation. I've had one or two fail , but that has in no way put me off the concept

I am not questioning the usefulness of crowd funding, nor the probity of the people managing the crowd funded models being produced. Quite the contrary, I hold them in high regard. I am not telling anyone to shun crowd funding or companies that charge a deposit for pre-orders, just stating my own opinion. If these concepts work for others then great. Usually I avoid most threads on crowd funding precisely because I don't see it as being my place to urinate on anybody else's fire. I believe I have also been consistent with my view when these matters do come up in discussion.

[billbedford]

My original post you've quoted was in the Coopercraft thread, in that thread you were at odds with those that seek to stop him trading with a website whereby he can take monies and not supply goods. One of the responses made by yourself was that you had written off small amounts but might think differently if the amount were £1000. I merely pointed out the reverse position you held, whereby many individuals had deposited small sums with you but that it added up to just short of a thousand pounds,

 

I still don't see you point. I've said I am not concerned about pursuing people for small amounts of money owed to me but you want to take exception to the fact that I equally not concerned about holding a lot of minuscule amounts in the form of deposits?

 

 

with many of the items probably never going to see the light of day.

 

 That shows that the system is working and I am not being distracted into producing models that will never make a profit.

 

 

My post came about because you were defending an individual whose business practices have become less than honourable, that made me look at your own website as when I had looked before it come across more as a 'wish list' 

I have seen one of your more recent products in the flesh and was impressed, I looked to order a couple but you only had limited stock of one and none of the other, I wrote and asked about future production.

 

I have two of the brake composites left, and none of the brake thirds. 

I'm not sure, at the moment, if I will be re-running either of these 

kits in the foreseeable future, However I will be producing a brake 

composite, which was more common than the brake third, and a full brake 

later in 2017.

 

This reply from you was over 12 months ago and it's quite clear that you're unlikely to produce another batch of either product, and yet on your website I can leave a deposit for them. I won't comment on the other 2 products you also mentioned for 2017 which haven't materialised but I'm able to make a deposit on.

 

That is the nature of batch production, and it is just the same for the RTR people. Sometimes the batch size is set too high and stuff sits on the shelves for years, and sometime the batch is short and some potential customers are miffed because they missed out. Sorry, but that's life and there is not much I can do about it except reset the order counter and wait until the next batch becomes viable.

Edited December 24, 2017 by billbedford

[barrowroad]

Whatever happened to the Easi-Chassis range that Bill proposed? There was a wish list if I remember correctly one of which was the BR 4-6-0 Class 5 to go with the Bachmann 73XXX.

[raymw]

Bill, You should make the deposit, say  50% of final price, and not have so many items on the wish list. You'd get a better idea of the really serious purchasers, and it would be more worthwhile giving the refunds. It would most likely encourage a more focused production cycle .