Mousa Models future production

[Colin_McLeod]

I agree 50% would be better. If I paid £1 to "express an interest" that would not seem to be enough to worry about losing if I changed my mind by the time the item was in production years later.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[Colin_McLeod]

..... you want to take exception to the fact that I equally not concerned about holding a lot of minuscule amounts in the form of deposits?

 

Perhaps you should be concerned. I'm surprised any trader would admit to that.

[4630]

Perhaps you should be concerned. I'm surprised any trader would admit to that.

So am I. There’s now at least one other trader that I’m reluctant to give my hard earned cash to.

[The Bigbee Line]

I have several coach sides collecting dust...  I chose sides that Bill had in production and received them in good time (a Bulleid 3 set).  If I wanted something enough on the wish list I would send the deposit.  I could die before it arrived by hey ho.  People pay over the odds prices for RTR 'must have' items then pick holes in the business strategy of people who offer and supply items that the RTR big boys will never offer.  Bill, more power to your elbow....

 

No offence intended to anybody, just my point of view.  I've had one tustle with the Grim Reaper, he might get me next time (That's if Trump doesn't keep poking Kim with a pointy stick and were all fried in the fall out....).

 

Anyway, best wishes to all for the season and a good 2018...........

[Andy Hayter]

Bill, You should make the deposit, say  50% of final price, and not have so many items on the wish list. You'd get a better idea of the really serious purchasers, and it would be more worthwhile giving the refunds. It would most likely encourage a more focused production cycle .

 

There are many why I disagree.  There are quite a number of items in Bill's potential future range that interest me, but I have not put down even the £1 interested deposit.  There are a whole range of reasons for this, which I will not go into, but none of them relate to a lack of trust in Bill as a manufacturer.  Indeed I have been delighted with the items I have purchased.

 

If the "interested" deposit rose to 50% then I certainly would not entertain that.   I suspect that many who do put down £1 would also be discouraged. 

[chris p bacon]

I still don't see you point. I've said I am not concerned about pursuing people for small amounts of money owed to me but you want to take exception to the fact that I equally not concerned about holding a lot of minuscule amounts in the form of deposits?

And there lies the issue to me.

 

It is immaterial to me what you do with your own money, although I would trust that anyone you supplied should pay what is owed, in the same way that any bills/invoices you incur should be paid.  But when you take a deposit for an item you have entered into a contract to supply,  if you can't in a reasonable timeframe then it should be returned unless the customer instructs otherwise, but your statement above makes it clear to me that because it's a minuscule amount (to you) of other peoples money it doesn't matter.  

 

Rather a sad way to conduct business.

 

 

 That shows that the system is working and I am not being distracted into producing models that will never make a profit.

 

And so you return the monies if they're not to be produced.

 

You do that don't you.

 

 

That is the nature of batch production, and it is just the same for the RTR people. Sometimes the batch size is set too high and stuff sits on the shelves for years, and sometime the batch is short and some potential customers are miffed because they missed out. Sorry, but that's life and there is not much I can do about it except reset the order counter and wait until the next batch becomes viable.

 

 

Don't misunderstand, I wasn't miffed at not being able to purchase, rather I was taken aback that you stated you were unlikely to produce yet still willing to take deposits.

 

 

I obviously inhabit a different world of business, I regularly take deposits that run into 5 figures and just once 6, but deposits come with an expectation to deliver and a clearly defined timescale, this can obviously vary but should never be open ended. But it always comes with the understanding that until you deliver, the money is the clients and will be returned if you fail to deliver.

 

Whats different between your world and mine ?

[raymw]

Dave, the expectation is different. You expect the customer will pursue you for a few thousand pounds. (not saying you wouldn't expect to refund 50 pence) and the customer knows that you expect that. But, it is quite apparent that many folk are not concerned with a few pounds, justifying the fraud in whatever way suits them, 'cos getting a refund is not worth the effort (nor apparently worth the effort to make a refund in some instances - who's worried about a couple of quid?)

[davidw]

I paid two £5 deposits several years ago for planned resin loco bodies, and have never heard a single word since. Not a lot of money, but galling nevertheless.

 

Ditto.

I have purchased coach sides in the past. But been disappointed with the lack of response to the resin bodies.

Edited December 24, 2017 by davidw

[Colin_McLeod]

Whatever about the financial side it is bad customer relations to ignore correspondence.

 

Also remember Ratners jewelry?

Once Ratner told the public the jewelery was crap they stopped buying it. I wonder would the same apply to deposits.

[Paul Cram]

And there lies the issue to me.

 

It is immaterial to me what you do with your own money, although I would trust that anyone you supplied should pay what is owed, in the same way that any bills/invoices you incur should be paid.  But when you take a deposit for an item you have entered into a contract to supply,  if you can't in a reasonable timeframe then it should be returned unless the customer instructs otherwise, but your statement above makes it clear to me that because it's a minuscule amount (to you) of other peoples money it doesn't matter.  

 

Rather a sad way to conduct business.

 

 

And so you return the monies if they're not to be produced.

 

You do that don't you.

 

 

 

Don't misunderstand, I wasn't miffed at not being able to purchase, rather I was taken aback that you stated you were unlikely to produce yet still willing to take deposits.

 

 

I obviously inhabit a different world of business, I regularly take deposits that run into 5 figures and just once 6, but deposits come with an expectation to deliver and a clearly defined timescale, this can obviously vary but should never be open ended. But it always comes with the understanding that until you deliver, the money is the clients and will be returned if you fail to deliver.

 

Whats different between your world and mine ?

Chris the deposit is an expression of interest and therefore does not create a contract to supply. Obviously if there is ebnough interest then the item will be made. What is a reasonable timescale anyway? the RTR boys are announcing products years in advance of producing them. It may take year for enough interest to be expressed forone of Bill's items.

[jjb1970]

Which returns us to why a company charges for an expression of interest? If there is no contract to supply then what is the deposit for? I really cannot see any valid reason for such an idea. Personally I am not a fan of charging deposits for models as part of the development process but at least if the vendor is committed to supply goods the deposit means something. Paying for an EOI in hope that goods might get made if enough other people do the same strikes me as very odd.

[chris p bacon]

Chris the deposit is an expression of interest and therefore does not create a contract to supply. Obviously if there is ebnough interest then the item will be made. What is a reasonable timescale anyway? the RTR boys are announcing products years in advance of producing them. It may take year for enough interest to be expressed forone of Bill's items.

 

I'm sure someone will correct me but an EOI is usually a written agreement/notification whereas a deposit signals the start of a contract/process to supply, by taking a deposit it infers the item will be produced but Bill has already stated that quite a lot won't be.

A contract can only be open ended if both parties agree, but there are no timescales given.

[twiggy1969]

no ones asking you to pay Bill a deposit seems to me you have a beef with Bill and just want to stir things up

[chris p bacon]

no ones asking you to pay Bill a deposit seems to me you have a beef with Bill and just want to stir things up

 

Yet another with no idea. I have no 'Beef' with Bill at all and having met him (just once) found him a very pleasant fella. The recent products are very nice and those that have purchased have been happy with them.

 

If you bothered to actually read the thread and where it emanated from you'd notice that Bill started the thread himself.    Left in the original discussion it would have been in context but for some reason he decided otherwise. 

 

 

To me it seems that some want to see an argument, where it's actually a discussion.

[micklner]

no ones asking you to pay Bill a deposit seems to me you have a beef with Bill and just want to stir things up

 

If you look at his site you cannot pre order anything without paying a deposit. Fact not whinging etc.

 

Read the other posts re peoples opinion, of the fact that money is requested at the same time ,whether its actually produce or not in the future.

 

A small amount is required, but it is not a needed/justified/or a necessary way of doing business, IMHO.

Edited December 25, 2017 by micklner

[stewartingram]

Many times I have been into High St. shops and ordered something. I've had no qualms about paying a deposit to show I'm doing it in good faith, with the shopkeeper ordering something in that he normally wouldn't stock. Sometimes an item that was freely available from the supplier; sometimes a chance order to try and help me out. I see nothing wrong with this business model

 

Stewart

[twiggy1969]

If you look at his site you cannot pre order anything without paying a deposit. Fact not whinging etc.

 

Read the other posts re peoples opinion, of the fact that money is requested at the same time ,whether its actually produce or not in the future.

 

A small amount is required, but it is not a needed/justified/or a necessary way of doing business, IMHO.

 

 

If you dont like the terms then dont order or pay a deposit move on 

i have had several ppl ask if i will do this transfer or corridor connectors for these coaches 

i wont touch transfers without a deposit up front and as for connectors im happy to do any for any coach but i ask for the coach be sent to me or measured for me to do the artwork you would be amazed at how many dont then follow up with anything

so a small deposit while not weeding out all the time wasters is for sure a way of doing this

 

seems to me that just because Bill tried to say that ppl were flogging a dead horse with Cooper craft he is now being attacked for the way he runs his affairs    

[billbedford]

At the risk of asking an obvious question, why take a deposit for an expression of interest? Surely you can just log expressions of interest, then when the EOIs hit a magic number press the metaphorical green button and at that point invite deposits?

 

 

Because normal market research doesn't work with low sales volumes.

 

Because expressions of interest are about as reliable as RMweb wish lists - there's more noise than signal

Edited December 25, 2017 by billbedford

[Colin_McLeod]

 

seems to me that just because Bill tried to say that ppl were flogging a dead horse with Cooper craft he is now being attacked for the way he runs his affairs

 

I don't think Bill said we were flogging a dead horse. He actually came to the defence of Dunn in a way that was contrary to stated facts. He then started this seperate thread by himself and with a misleading title too.

 

Doing so was never going to end happily.

[chris p bacon]

Many times I have been into High St. shops and ordered something. I've had no qualms about paying a deposit to show I'm doing it in good faith, with the shopkeeper ordering something in that he normally wouldn't stock. Sometimes an item that was freely available from the supplier; sometimes a chance order to try and help me out. I see nothing wrong with this business model

 

Stewart

 

You're right, but out of interest does the shop you give the deposit to sit on it for a long time before ordering the item, or does it give you a idea of timescale for supply ?

[jjb1970]

Because normal market research doesn't work with low sales volumes.

 

Because expressions of interest are about as reliable as RMweb wish lists - there's more noise than signal

How long do you give it before deciding something won't go ahead and issue a refund?

[adriank]

How long do you give it before deciding something won't go ahead and issue a refund?

 

Is this a good time to raise the issue of the WC/BB chassis? Wasn't it around 2005 that you first invited deposits? You told me directly at Scaleforum a few years ago that expressions of interest were strong and that the kit would definitely be produced. Yet still no product. How many deposits have you collected during this period and how many have been refunded?

[jjb1970]

I can't help thinking that this thread, in combination with posts on the Coopercraft thread have been an own goal.

 

I've never taken an interest in Mousa models and never had any plans to buy any for the simple reason that the products are either not in my area of interest or I'm happy with available RTR. Ordinarily I'd therefore not take much notice of things as I try and avoid urinating on the fires of other enthusiasts (hence why I seldom post on crowd funded model threads, kit producer threads etc). However, comments on the Coopercraft threat and a decision to open this thread have made me post on a thread I'd usually ignore and it seems that the only affect has been to antagonise people and draw attention to the taking of deposits. OK, you've lost no business from me as there was no business to lose, but if you continue as are I can't help feeling you are going to lose customers.

 

Now that may not be a problem, if you've got a backlog of deposits etc you maybe have the customers you want and neither need nor seek others but even in that case I really can't see any point or benefit to this thread from the manufacturers perspective.

[farren]

What is up with people! Bill is kind enough to put updates on this forum what more do you want. I have a order and had it for a few years now! Give the man a break each wagon is going to cost a lot more then a sale of 10 wagons. Yes I would like mine done but not at Bill being out of pocket. And how can a costing even 50% be worked out for a model that dose not exist yet. I would like ten BR pal brick wagons. And though I have £200 set aside I can't pay up front. As I and more importantly Bill dose not know the costs! So can we please stop throwing our toys around and get behind Bill. Before he says 'what's the point'

[Colin_McLeod]

Darren this thread was started by Bill. Despite the thread title it is not about his future products nor is it about the issues in your post.

 

It is as jjb1970 has suggested, a bit of an own goal arising from the nature of his posts defending the discredited Coopercraft business.