Mousa Models future production

[gismorail]

Sorry folks but this has to be done 

 

 

 

 

[Darius43]

As I see it there is a difference between Mr Bedford’s business model and Mr Coopercraft’s. The latter keeps a website running taking money for non-existent products whilst Mr Bedford is, at least, up front about his “expression of interest” deposit scheme.

 

This notwithstanding, I too am puzzled by Mr Bedford’s defence of Mr Coopercraft in the other thread.

 

It would be enlightening to know if any deposits have eventually been returned by Mr Bedford of does the expression of interest period stretch into decades?

 

Darius

Edited December 27, 2017 by Darius43

[PaulCheffus]

What is up with people! Bill is kind enough to put updates on this forum what more do you want. I have a order and had it for a few years now! Give the man a break each wagon is going to cost a lot more then a sale of 10 wagons. Yes I would like mine done but not at Bill being out of pocket. And how can a costing even 50% be worked out for a model that dose not exist yet. I would like ten BR pal brick wagons. And though I have £200 set aside I can't pay up front. As I and more importantly Bill dose not know the costs! So can we please stop throwing our toys around and get behind Bill. Before he says 'what's the point'

Hi

 

If someone doesn't know a rough estimate of the costs before planning on manufacturing something then they don't have the first clue regarding how to run a business. This is not directed at Bill but the poster above.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[jjb1970]

I guess it depends to some extent whether an announcement is one of serious intent or just flying a kite to see if any EOIs come in. Over the years I must admit I've wondered what percentage of product announcements (and not just model railways) are just throwing bait out there to gauge response.

[Junctionmad]

I have no issue with the £1 or so EOI model of business , nor would I be concerned that's it's never returned. The key , is that this is explained up front and clearly. I can fully understand why BB and anyone would regard " free" EOIs with deep suspicion.

 

This issue should not be conflated with the Coopercraft situation

[Horsetan]

Is this a good time to raise the issue of the WC/BB chassis? Wasn't it around 2005 that you first invited deposits? You told me directly at Scaleforum a few years ago that expressions of interest were strong and that the kit would definitely be produced. Yet still no product. How many deposits have you collected during this period and how many have been refunded?

Wow, was it that long ago? I don't remember it ever getting a mention in Bill's website catalogue, otherwise I'd have been only too happy to put my name down for one.

 

Then again, there is the Comet one - didn't Bill have a hand in the design for that?

Edited December 27, 2017 by Horsetan

[adriank]

Wow, was it that long ago?

 

Then again, there is the Comet one - didn't Bill have a hand in the design for that?

 

There is an article on the CLAG site on converting the Hornby WC to P4 dated February 2005. As I recall, this project was undertaken to bail out an extremely unhappy and frustrated 'early expresser of interest'.

 

I too would have purchased a WC/BB chassis and that for the T9 which I believe was mooted at the same time. Three chassis were proposed following Hornby's renewed interest in the Southern but only the M7 has made it to market.

 

I have no knowledge of any collaboration with Comet.

 

There is a very sad irony in all this when considerable demand is ignored in pursuit of cornering the 3D-printed luggage barrow market.

 

Go figure.

[Compound2632]

There is a very sad irony in all this when considerable demand is ignored in pursuit of cornering the 3D-printed luggage barrow market.

 

As a builder of "luggage barrows" of pre-grouping vintage, I take exception. The 3D printing route that Bill is pursuing is, it seems to me, ideally suited the production of small runs of this type of vehicle, which is sadly unlikely ever to warrant the kind of mass-production of even an upgrade kit for a pacific. It is a niche market being filled by a niche supplier. Pre-grouping modellers are used to exercising patience. I doubt that Mousa Models (or many other cottage industry manufacturers) could cope with a run-away success. The capitalist dictum that growth is essential to continued success breaks down at the one-man-band level - there will be an optimum size of operation depending on finances and lifestyle choices.

[Horsetan]

.. I doubt that Mousa Models (or many other cottage industry manufacturers) could cope with a run-away success. ....

Is that why a lot of Bill's etches went over to Eileen's Emporium?

[adriank]

As a builder of "luggage barrows" of pre-grouping vintage, I take exception. The 3D printing route that Bill is pursuing is, it seems to me, ideally suited the production of small runs of this type of vehicle, which is sadly unlikely ever to warrant the kind of mass-production of even an upgrade kit for a pacific. It is a niche market being filled by a niche supplier. Pre-grouping modellers are used to exercising patience. I doubt that Mousa Models (or many other cottage industry manufacturers) could cope with a run-away success. The capitalist dictum that growth is essential to continued success breaks down at the one-man-band level - there will be an optimum size of operation depending on finances and lifestyle choices.

 

My comment was hyperbole - exaggerating for effect - rather than a comment on luggage barrows per se. The point was that why prattle on about qualifying market research by asking for deposits when at the end of the day you're going to turn your back on the results and do whatever takes your fancy. Sorry you missed it.

[Compound2632]

My comment was hyperbole - exaggerating for effect - rather than a comment on luggage barrows per se. The point was that why prattle on about qualifying market research by asking for deposits when at the end of the day you're going to turn your back on the results and do whatever takes your fancy. Sorry you missed it.

 

Not at all. Within the field of pre-grouping wagons, Bill appears to be proceeding just has he describes - we understand that kits of specific prototypes won't appear unless there are sufficient deposits. However, he is, after all, free to do as he pleases - his market research might indicate that there is demand for something he has no interest in producing; he can still earn a living (one has to suppose) by concentrating on those things where market research and his interests coincide. It is, for the moment, still a free country.

[adriank]

Not at all. Within the field of pre-grouping wagons, Bill appears to be proceeding just has he describes - we understand that kits of specific prototypes won't appear unless there are sufficient deposits. However, he is, after all, free to do as he pleases - his market research might indicate that there is demand for something he has no interest in producing; he can still earn a living (one has to suppose) by concentrating on those things where market research and his interests coincide. It is, for the moment, still a free country.

 

Of course it is still a free country but it's not simply market research that we're talking about here but the collection of deposits. If as you suppose, there were potential products which he had no interest in producing, how in all conscience could he accept deposits for them? 

[Compound2632]

Of course it is still a free country but it's not simply market research that we're talking about here but the collection of deposits. If as you suppose, there were potential products which he had no interest in producing, how in all conscience could he accept deposits for them? 

 

Ah, but that's the chicken-and-egg of it. Without the deposits, how can he form the intention of producing? Personally, I view the £1 deposit as chicken-feed and will be happy with those eggs that are laid - and eggs are being laid, that's the point. From conversations I have had with Bill at exhibitions, I gathered that for at least the Midland wagons, he has a principal backer; I would imagine that would be the case for at least some of the other "in preparation" wagons. It's none of our business to know the details.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Compound2632

[adriank]

Ah, but that's the chicken-and-egg of it. Without the deposits, how can he form the intention of producing? Personally, I view the £1 deposit as chicken-feed and will be happy with those eggs that are laid - and eggs are being laid, that's the point. From conversations I have had with Bill at exhibitions, I gathered that for at least the Midland wagons, he has a principal backer; I would imagine that would be the case for at least some of the other "in preparation" wagons. It's none of our business to know the details.

 

Sigh.

[Compound2632]

It would appear we agree to differ. Each to his own!

[chris p bacon]

 I view the £1 deposit as chicken-feed

 

 

 

 

That's a £1000 worth of Chicken feed, not a small sum.

 

 It's none of our business to know the details.

 

 

It is if you're putting a deposit down, that's the difference when you hand over money you should be more informed of progress.

[Craigw]

That's a £1000 worth of Chicken feed, not a small sum.

 

 

It is if you're putting a deposit down, that's the difference when you hand over money you should be more informed of progress.

 

I know the progress when I get an email from Bill asking if my address is still correct and if I still want the LNWR wagons I placed a deposit on. I am happy with that. It seems the main whingers about Bill are people who do not want to buy his models anyway.

 

If I am not happy with his was of doing business I simply will not order. I already have a list of ones I do not deal with.

 

Craig W

[Covkid]

Having read this thread up to date I think I have just lost the will to live !!!

 

Yes, Bill started this thread but I wonder if he expected page after page of people debating his busines model. It seems clear to me that you either do business with Bill or you don't, but adding the "Ratners jewellery is crap" simile to this thread is utterly irrelevant.

[Colin_McLeod]

Touched a nerve? Perhaps someone on here bought an engagement ring from Ratners or didn't understand the comparison I made.

[chris p bacon]

Having read this thread up to date I think I have just lost the will to live !!!

 

 

 

Put it on ignore then.

 

 

Yes, Bill started this thread but I wonder if he expected page after page of people debating his busines model. It seems clear to me that you either do business with Bill or you don't, but adding the "Ratners jewellery is crap" simile to this thread is utterly irrelevant.

 

 

 

What else would you expect when you quote from another thread where the main thrust is disappointment with non delivery of items after payment.  I took the reference to Ratner as that of a business owner who publicly stated that his customers were gullible, thereby (in Ratners case) destroying his business. If Bill didn't think he would get negative comments by starting this thread then his market research really isn't working. I replied to this thread as Bill had quoted me, had he not and the thread had been purely about when items listed as 'in preparation' were to be available (as the thread title indicated) then I would have read with interest but probably not commented.

 

Bill has obviously found a business model that works for him, people give him small amounts of money as a deposit with no expectation. Part of my point was that an EOI is very different to a deposit which has contractual obligations attached to it.

 

And to re-itterate. I have no axe to grind and as I've said I found him a very pleasant chap when I met him, his products are those I should be interested in and the newer ones I've seen are very nice.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The concept of market research is a red herring for most model railway small  suppliers. 

 

Kit sales volumes are low - probably far less than most of you realise -  and it is difficult to "find" the potential customers among those who indulge in the hobby. If you poll one hundred model builders (as opposed to RTR collectors) you'll be fortunate to find more than a very few interested in a particular model for a particular railway in a particular period. Seeking "Expressions of |Interest" is probably the best way about it and asking for a very small deposit possibly helps identify the real potential buyers. So I think that works for Bill's relatively low cost wagon kits, but might not for an etched loco costing £100 or more unless you asked for a higher deposit (£20+?) . That might be counter productive unless the supplier had good credentials/reputation and provided confirmation that deposits would be returned in the event that the model didn't materialise.

 

So EOIs, if genuine, can to some degree protect a Small Supplier from the risk of developing/producing a kit only to find he can't sell enough to cover costs and provide a profit (AKA an income). Elsewhere, some products on the market have been funded by someone sufficiently well funded commissioning what they want, and then allowing it to be made available for general sale, again protecting the producer from the risk.

 

The RTR market is somewhat different, with extensive wishlists, frothing, critical appraisal/criticism and polls. However, give the development costs and production volumes, the manufacturers probably still have to rely to some extent on the "ooh, isn't it pretty, I must have one" mass hysteria that seems to surround new RTR announcements/releases.

[hayfield]

Touched a nerve? Perhaps someone on here bought an engagement ring from Ratners or didn't understand the comparison I made.

 

Do you still have the M&S prawn sandwich?

[chris p bacon]

 but might not for an etched loco costing £100 or more unless you asked for a higher deposit (£20+?) . That might be counter productive unless the supplier had good credentials/reputation and provided confirmation that deposits would be returned in the event that the model didn't materialise.

 

 

Jol, for clarity the deposit for a loco is £10.

[Captain Kernow]

I've never had any problems with Bill's service.

Me neither. The hobby needs people like Bill.

 

 

I placed a 'deposit' for a particular Maunsell many moons ago, possibly before Hornby introduced their versions; I think it was £2. I couldn't give a to## if that £2 never produces a result. Some people pay more than that by far for Lottery tickets or for half a pint of weak #### stuff called Lager.

 

Quite. Puts things in perspective, when there are real con men out there, stealing the life savings from innocent and honest people.

 

Climb down off yer soapboxes and spread some love at Christmas.

 

Well said, Dr Duck, very well said indeed.

 

A bit of a forlorn hope with some folk though, I fear.

[jonny777]

Put it on ignore then.

 

 

 

 

What an excellent idea. Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.