Railways of Victoria (Australia)

[adriank]

I would like to find out about Victorian railways and the broad gauge. Can anybody recommend a good source? (It's safe to assume I know absolutely nothing).

 

Also, are there plans available of Victorian structures, locomotives and rolling stock?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Adrian

[dullsteamer]

The best place to start would be here:

 

http://vicsig.net

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[FPH 603]

Try http://www.victorianrailways.net

 

I know a decent amount about the suburban electric network if that's what your looking for, but other than that I don't know too much.

 

I found a good link regarding the rolling stock too:

 

http://www.pjv101.net/cd/pages/codelist.htm

[graeme3300]

Adrian,

          Further to the excellent references given by Mark and DoubleDeckInterurban above, another quite useful site is: http://www.signaldiagramsandphotos.com/ .

Mark Bau's 'Victorian Railways' site  (http://www.victorianrailways.net) is an absolute goldmine of useful information and photographs and is highly recommended.

Another source, complementing Peter Vincent's site, is by Rob O'Regan: (http://www.robx1.net/)

 

In general terms, the VR largely followed UK practice for safeworking and signalling, left-hand running on double lines, and steam locomotives. Initially there were several private

companies building some suburban lines and a country line to Geelong, but they all eventually failed leaving the Victorian Government to take up the reins to expand the rail network. The VR itself dates from the early 1860s, with lines reaching Geelong in 1859, then a line northwest to Ballarat in 1862. The line to Bendigo also opened in 1862. Victoria was expanding rapidly, with huge population growth and wealth after massive alluvial gold discoveries from 1851. By the 1860s and onwards most gold-mining around Ballarat and Bendigo and elsewhere

was underground with mining companies to the fore. The Phoenix Foundry in Ballarat, as engineers to the mining industry, was also pivotal in building locomotives for the VR from 1873 until about 1904, along with Newport Workshops (opened 1889, but did not build its first loco until 1893.) Initially, locos were fully imported from Geo. England &Co; Slaughter Gruning in Bristol, then later from companies like Beyer-Peacock and Kitsons from Leeds. The VR had an odd arrangement for building locos later.They would import 'pattern' engines from the UK which were then duplicated by Phoenix Foundry to the numbers specified in contracts.The VR also dabbled in some US-built light-lines Baldwin 4-6-0s which were also 'pattern' engines in 1883, then a hulking Vauclain compound 2-8-0 in 1899, plus only two typical US 4-4-0s from Rogers in 1877. Sensibly, the VR also was a relatively early adopter of the Westinghouse automatic air brake. All the CMEs were from UK railways, and Richard Speight from the Midland in the 1880s was Chief Commissioner and introduced a lot of sensible, practical standardisation of boilers, valve-gear parts, etc.

      One obvious difference from the UK is that railways were used to open up areas of Victoria for development, hence lots of lines radiating out from Melbourne, but with very few cross-country linkages. If you're interested, there's a recently published book: 'The Phoenix Foundry - Locomotive Builders of Ballarat' by Bob Butrims and Dave Macartney- Australian Railway Historical Society (Vic Division) 2013 - ISBN: 978-0-646-90402-3 (hardback). The ARHS website is: https://www.arhsvic.org.au/ - also quite useful.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

Graeme

[Gwiwer]

The Vicsig link is a good one as there is a vast amount of information - updated fairly regularly - within and complied and managed by very knowledgeable individuals some of whom are or have been industry insiders.  It is not an official site however and is run purely as a hobby for information.  There is an associated Facebook page which allows for some discussion of topics which were formerly managed in the now-closed Vicsig site forums.

 

There is a "gunzel" (foamer / gricer / railfan) site which has since 1992 branded itself as "Wasting time and bandwidth" and which has some very handy detail among a great deal of froth and hot air.  http://railpage.com.au is often referred to as RP (or Arpee) among its users and others and fair warning - you may well end up wasting a good deal of time and bandwidth there but it might be worth it now and again.  

 

Both sites share some active members whose names will also be found among the Flickr files for some excellent photographic records of modern and historical operations.

One fascinating aspect of the Victorian Railways broad gauge operations is that there remain three level crossings with the standard gauge tram network in suburban Melbourne - the largest such in the world.  One, at Glenhuntly, has three rail tracks crossing two tram tracks and carries freight as well as passenger on the broad gauge making it - we believe - unique in the world.

 

I am also happy to answer questions having been employed by both the rail and tram operators in Melbourne over the past 18 years or so.

[adriank]

Thanks to all of you for pointing me towards a wealth of information. I now have a lot of reading to do and will no doubt be posting further questions as they arrive.

 

I model British outline in P4 and although this will remain my main interest, I would like to model an Australian prototype. I have lived here in NSW for almost 30 years so it's about time and retirement provides an opportunity.

 

A few years ago I visited Tocumwal and was intrigued to learn about the broad/standard gauge interchange and think it would make an excellent subject for modelling with a mix of HO and EM gauge track and set in wartime or the immediate post-war period. There is obviously a lot of research I need to do, not just for Tocumwal but to understand the historical and operational context.

 

Thanks for helping me to make a start.

 

Adrian

[FPH 603]

Your welcome. I hope all goes well in undertaking this new project. The Australian prototype is very interesting and I'm sure you'll find new interests and learn lots along the way.

[Gwiwer]

The Australian market is small and elsewhere in the world there is apparently very little interest meaning production runs are often limited and unit costs proportionately much higher than might be the case for British outline.  They compare with some of the European and US outline brands for cost.  Currently and so far as I am aware the only Australian RtR models are HO scale.  Although there are three main gauges in use (Narrow / 3' 6" / 1067mm, Standard / 4' 8½" / 1435mm and "Irish" Broad / 5' 3" / 1600mm) many locomotives and items of rolling stock can be run on all three with bogie swaps.  Swaps to and from Narrow Gauge are less common than between the two wider gauges; intermodal containers are transhipped in preference and there are no through passenger workings.

 

So for modelling purposes you can make use of HO and EM provided you can re-set your back-to-backs but beware of point and crossing clearances if using sections of dual-gauge track.  These are commonly found in yards and depot areas where locos and freight trains of both gauges are required to run.  In model scale the difference between the two is very small and may not be possible to represent accurately given that our rails are of necessity over-scale width.

 

Browse the Austrains and Auscision sites which are the major suppliers though some smaller businesses also exist.  In my experience Australian-theme modellers also scratch-build more than British-theme modellers typically do.  Largely, I believe, because of the modest range of RtR available but also a factor of often having more disposable income and more space to build a workshop than might be the case in a British home.

[adriank]

So for modelling purposes you can make use of HO and EM provided you can re-set your back-to-backs but beware of point and crossing clearances if using sections of dual-gauge track.  These are commonly found in yards and depot areas where locos and freight trains of both gauges are required to run.  In model scale the difference between the two is very small and may not be possible to represent accurately given that our rails are of necessity over-scale width.

 

Browse the Austrains and Auscision sites which are the major suppliers though some smaller businesses also exist.  In my experience Australian-theme modellers also scratch-build more than British-theme modellers typically do.  Largely, I believe, because of the modest range of RtR available but also a factor of often having more disposable income and more space to build a workshop than might be the case in a British home.

 

Thanks for the modelling advice Gwiwer. I don't get much pleasure from simply running RtR models and was thinking of using kits from Steam Era Models and others and scratch-building. I currently build my own point and crossing work in P4 and quite fancy the challenge of mixed-gauge track. Are there any clubs or societies supporting fine-scale modelling? My previous enquiry about the Australian Journal of Railway Modelling drew a blank.

 

Adrian

[Gwiwer]

It might seem an unlikely opening but the BRMA (British Railway Modellers of Australia) may well put you in contact with the sort of people who can help and support you. I always found their local meetings, usually around a member’s layout, to be very welcoming, friendly and knowledgeable. Start here: www.brma.org.au

[adriank]

It might seem an unlikely opening but the BRMA (British Railway Modellers of Australia) may well put you in contact with the sort of people who can help and support you. I always found their local meetings, usually around a member’s layout, to be very welcoming, friendly and knowledgeable. Start here: www.brma.org.au

 

Thanks Gwiwer. I note they have a non-British layout gallery so I'll give it a go.

 

Adrian

[Craigw]

Thanks to all of you for pointing me towards a wealth of information. I now have a lot of reading to do and will no doubt be posting further questions as they arrive.

 

I model British outline in P4 and although this will remain my main interest, I would like to model an Australian prototype. I have lived here in NSW for almost 30 years so it's about time and retirement provides an opportunity.

 

A few years ago I visited Tocumwal and was intrigued to learn about the broad/standard gauge interchange and think it would make an excellent subject for modelling with a mix of HO and EM gauge track and set in wartime or the immediate post-war period. There is obviously a lot of research I need to do, not just for Tocumwal but to understand the historical and operational context.

 

Thanks for helping me to make a start.

 

Adrian

 

Adrian, 

 

I would caution you that the very vast majority of Victorian 3.5mm scale modellers use 16.5mm track.  There are issues with re-gauging to 18.2 for any RTR diesels due to most using RP25/110 profile wheels. Some rolling stock would be easier. The upside is that the Steam Era Models kits are very nice indeed. If you are a faceache user there are also a number of groups for Victorian modellers, indeed facebook seems to have killed off a fair chunk of railpage activity as well as the VR enthusiast forum.

 

regards,

 

Craig W

[adriank]

Thanks Craig. I'll bear your caution in mind. Would replacing wheelsets with RP25/88 be the way to go? I think Steam Era Models offer this option on some of their kits.

 

Adrian

[D6775]

Hi Adrian,

 

Mixing EM with HO for dual gauge track won't work HO gauge being 16.5mm & EM back to back also being 16.5mm. It had crossed my mind whether it could be done but alas not!

 

In terms of EMing current RTR stock as previously advised most is produced with RP25/110 wheels and therefore is not a simple pull out of wheel sets, saying this I have had the following successes:

Auscision A, B & N loco's have all needed re-wheeling done with SEM wheel pans but keeping the Aucsions axles.

Auscision wagons & Vans (various types) all required replacement wheels.

Auscision N carriages, these where a pig, needed the bogies cutting into three pieces and re-building & re-wheeling.

BRM P class I have EM'd these but I cannot remember if i have re-wheeled them or not! I am pretty sure I must have done.

Powerline T class, simply pull the wheels out with some small washers to space them.

Powerline S cars (the new ones) were a nice surprise as all they needed was the wheels spacing out. Old S cars wheels are crap so need replacing whatever you do with them.

Austrains T & X class, simply pull the wheels out with some small washers to space them.

Austrains Y class, I've had to replace the wheels on this and they fit but having trouble turning (I need to revisit this one and solve it which may invlve some trimming of the bogie frames, I may even look for some other wheels as they should really be spoked)

OnTrackModels vans, all done with replacement wheels.

Trainorama S Class - So far I have been unsuccessful with this, though I think it has been done but needs the wheels replacing/turning down and the bogie frames filing out.

 

In terms of replacement wheels I have used RP25/88 wheels from Auscsion, SEM, NWSL & Alan Gibson depending on the Axle lengths required. I know most of this will be too modern for you but will give you an idea on manufacturers. If you are buying kits from SEM then you can always ask EM wheels to be supplied, I have had a number of orders from him for either jut wheel pans (for the Auscison Loco's) or replacement wheels including Axles, though I have not had any for some time.

 

Hope some of this helps!

 

Regards,

 

Al.

[adriank]

Hi Adrian,

 

Mixing EM with HO for dual gauge track won't work HO gauge being 16.5mm & EM back to back also being 16.5mm. It had crossed my mind whether it could be done but alas not!

 

 

In terms of replacement wheels I have used RP25/88 wheels from Auscsion, SEM, NWSL & Alan Gibson depending on the Axle lengths required. I know most of this will be too modern for you but will give you an idea on manufacturers. If you are buying kits from SEM then you can always ask EM wheels to be supplied, I have had a number of orders from him for either jut wheel pans (for the Auscison Loco's) or replacement wheels including Axles, though I have not had any for some time.

 

Hope some of this helps!

 

Regards,

 

Al.

 

Thanks Al for a very informative post. I had been thinking of the prototype gauge difference and noting that a third rail had been laid on an experimental basis but of course in modelling terms you're absolutely right, it's not going to work. Bit of a wake-up call really! The Tocumwal signalling diagram shows only very short sections of dual gauge track in the middle of loops, with broad gauge entering at one end and standard gauge at the other but I've no idea how this was used.

 

Thanks for your notes on the conversions you have undertaken and on sources of RP25/88 wheels. Does anybody produce steam locomotive wheels to this profile?

 

Do you make your own track?

 

I've been in touch with SEM about their Rail Tractor and DERM units and was really impressed with their prompt and detailed response. I found a photograph of a DERM railcar crossing the Murray over a fantastic bridge and thought that it might form the basis of a small cameo layout.

 

Thanks again for your help. It's much appreciated.

 

Adrian

[SRman]

If it is of any help, even the real mixed gauge for standard gauge inside 5' 3" broad gauge uses a much thinner rail section for the inside rail.

[FPH 603]

What about using P4 track? It is broader than HO scale track.

[adriank]

If it is of any help, even the real mixed gauge for standard gauge inside 5' 3" broad gauge uses a much thinner rail section for the inside rail.

 

Thanks SRman. Do you know where I can find details? I've looked at http://www.victorianrailways.net/infastuct/infastructhome.html which contains a lot of permanent way drawings but can find nothing on dual gauge track.

 

Adrian

[adriank]

What about using P4 track? It is broader than HO scale track.

 

I think this would make stock conversions more difficult where clearances are limited. EM gauge at 18.2 mm is about 0.2 mm under gauge whereas P4 is about 0.5 mm over. Thanks for the idea though.

 

Adrian

[robertc]

Thanks for the modelling advice Gwiwer. I don't get much pleasure from simply running RtR models and was thinking of using kits from Steam Era Models and others and scratch-building. I currently build my own point and crossing work in P4 and quite fancy the challenge of mixed-gauge track. Are there any clubs or societies supporting fine-scale modelling? My previous enquiry about the Australian Journal of Railway Modelling drew a blank.

 

Adrian

 

Adrian, ARJM is a publication that is produced when the editor has time and enough input. Which equates to not very often .

Google up ajrm and you will find some sites. e.g. http://ajrm.com.au/

You might find some individuals who have decided to use skinnier NMRA standard wheels but it is not common.

We have no need, as Australian standard gauge modelling does not have the OO/EM/P4 problem and modellers of broad gauge are happy to use 16.5mm as the real thing often runs on standard gauge..

Modellers in Australia who consider themselves serious have used the NMRA RP25/110 wheels and associated standards since the early 60's. We had access to plenty of wheels and track to suit and it worked properly. I started a P3.5 layout years ago but quickly decided it was not for me.

good luck

Bob

p.s. if you want something different have a look at 3'6" gauge modelling. WAGR in S scale is one area that does have some kit support but there there is still a lot that needs to be scratchbuilt.   http://wasnmodeller.blogspot.com.au/

[adriank]

 

You might find some individuals who have decided to use skinnier NMRA standard wheels but it is not common.

We have no need, as Australian standard gauge modelling does not have the OO/EM/P4 problem and modellers of broad gauge are happy to use 16.5mm as the real thing often runs on standard gauge..

 

Bob

p.s. if you want something different have a look at 3'6" gauge modelling. WAGR in S scale is one area that does have some kit support but there there is still a lot that needs to be scratchbuilt.   http://wasnmodeller.blogspot.com.au/

 

That certainly seems to be the case Bob. I seem to recall that Proto:87 had an uphill struggle to become established in the USA for exactly the same reason. 

 

Thanks for the link to the WAGR site - there's some excellent modelling there. I have often looked with envy at the NZ Sn3½ models.

 

Since my last post I have made contact with a UK modeller who models VR broad gauge in EM. He cheerfully admits he is part of a tiny minority but informs me that there are a few others some of whom actually use 18.4 mm gauge. So, I'm sufficiently encouraged to press on.

 

Adrian

[SRman]

Some modellers of Queensland Railways (also 3' 6" gauge) use HO scale on 12mm gauge track, allowing for mixed gauge interchanges to be modelled. I believe some South Australians also do this - they had all three major gauges to contend with!

[E3109]

These are to die for. I suspect one or two will sneak onto my 4mm OLE layout somehow....

 

http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/L%20Class%20Locomotive.htm

 

Built in Preston too   

[DavidB-AU]

There is a (very) small group modelling Victorian in true scale HOb5¼ using 18.37mm gauge but you can count them on one hand. There is a great exhibition layout called Tyobic in this gauge. A photo here: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-isLq7NzNm_8/TxqKE-nL-QI/AAAAAAAABSI/uIr7e_d76gk/s1600/tyobic%2Bjpg055.JPG

 

But on the whole most seem happy with 16.5mm gauge. Where they represent the north east where broad and standard gauge run parallel, the usual trick is to use code 83 for broad gauge and code 70 for standard gauge. It gives the illusion of them being different.

 

There's also the option of O or N scale. O scale has the complication that Victorians use 1/4" scale whereas other states use 7mm scale! But there are some absolutely stunning O scale VR models available these days. In fact if I was starting from scratch now I would be doing VR narrow gauge in On30.

 

Cheers

David

[DavidB-AU]

Some modellers of Queensland Railways (also 3' 6" gauge) use HO scale on 12mm gauge track, allowing for mixed gauge interchanges to be modelled.

Most modellers of QR narrow gauge use HOn3½ now as more RTR stock is coming out all the time. Sn3½ was the most popular until about a decade ago.

 

I believe some South Australians also do this - they had all three major gauges to contend with!

South Australians generally use HO for broad gauge and HOn3 for narrow (3'6") gauge. Partly for historical reasons as there was more 10.5mm gauge track and mechs around in the early days, and partly because it emphasises the difference between broad and narrow gauge.

 

Cheers

David