tractor_37260 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 The Bachmann 47 has nice wire cab door handrails but WHY fit them "flush" to the bodysides ? Hopefully those cab front window frame "rivets" will be gone on any 47/0s produced 2018 onwards...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) I could not agree more. Sound and interior lights are all options that can (relatively) easily be fitted after purchase if the buyer so wishes. And to be honest, although I can appreciate the short-term 'wow' factor of electronic pantograph and rotating buffers, well, they really are no more than that, ie. "short-term wow" - there's only so many times you can watch your buffers swivel before the novelty wears off surely? However, carving off recessed moulded handrails will effectively destroy the outer finish of the model. I really fail to understand this approach. I hate to sound negative, but although the Class 90 does indeed look very nice otherwise it's the small details that make the ultimate difference. We had proper handrails on the Class 85 and in fact all diesels since about the 1990s, but not now in 2018? Sad to say it is also things like this that are deal-breakers for me too. It really does appear that Bachmann are plumping for short-term gimmickry above maximum fidelity. I have to say it smells a tad of the "design clever" (or indeed not-so clever) approach. Bizarre, truly bizarre. I look forward to seeing your scratchbuild 90's. Edited January 3, 2018 by coachmann 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 If you had wire handrails you wouldn't get the finer details such as the mounting plates at the top and bottom. As they are recessed handrails you wouldn't be able to see behind them even if they were wire; I honestly, and literally, cannot see the problem. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) If you had wire handrails you wouldn't get the finer details such as the mounting plates at the top and bottom. As they are recessed handrails and you wouldn't be able to see behind them even if they were wire I honestly, and literally, cannot see the problem. 90_handrails.jpg Agreed, and there'd be no way of doing that convincingly in wire without some very fancy (expensive) tooling/assembly techniques. I think they'd have to go into slots from the inside and have the gaps plated over afterwards. Probably doable, but likely to add significantly to the price whilst being entirely invisible to all but very close scrutiny. John Edited January 4, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1023 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 The handrails on the TC are moulded and they look just fine, better infact than the comparable seperate handrails fitted to the Hornby 4VEP which break very easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Two pictures which might assist, Bachmann moulded and painted (Class 43) compared to Heljan wire. Secondly Dapol wire (63xx) compared to Heljan wire. I would say the Bachmann painted / moulded is the more delicate. I don't have anything Hornby to compare. RayMoulded and WireWire and Wire 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 Hello all, I am not a 4mm modeller, however I watched the video with interest as I am fervently hoping the 90 might get shrunk down to N. Having looked at several photos of the prototype on flickr, I am not sure what the issue is with the handrails. On the real thing they are mounted in recesses, so flush with the sides, have flat faces and are squared off top and bottom. They are not sections of round rod bent at each end and fixed proud of the loco body. I can't tell from the video whether the handrails on the Bachmann 90 are moulded in situ, or separate mouldings glued in place. Either way they look, to me, far more realistic than bent wire would, and will look even better when painted. I am a big fan of wire details and etched parts, but I am not sure they are always the best solution. cheers Ben A. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Nothing looks so much like metal as metal itself. I favour wire handrails but the moulded handrails on these are not going to put me off getting a 90. Or two. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Is that what Yes Tor meant? I never knew that. I don't know about Class 90s. Even though I like electrics they are too modern for me. Jason If you watch the video (admittedly its half an hour, so can see why you didn't) its blatantly obvious what YesTor is talking about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2018 That looks like a copy of Midland Engines No. 1 (Wild Swan) that's been dismembered and put in the ring binder - very encouraging! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 If you watch the video (admittedly its half an hour, so can see why you didn't) its blatantly obvious what YesTor is talking about. Nah. Don't watch videos about toy trains. Got much better things to do. I do read, and I've never seen anything mentioned about "rotating buffers" on any of the specifications for any model. Whether Class 90s or others. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadway Clive Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I am a big fan of wire details and etched parts, but I am not sure they are always the best solution. Absolutely the right philosophy. I use to be bigoted about which materials were used in modelling but was finally convinced into make unbiased comparisons using just my eyes, without my brain shouting 'its only plastic, paper, card', and 'its a deception - don't be fooled!' I now understand our eyes and brains can often struggle with equating certain model details with real life, so I've moved away from a fundamentalist position and now embrace deception as part of the modelling art. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spet0114 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Hello all, I am not a 4mm modeller.... Though you do like to taunt and tease them! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 We shouldn't get all tied up about the materials used (except when it comes to Mazak!!!) but at the quality of the model produced. I seem to recall some individual some time ago producing exquisite paper models of locomotives, also we don't build platforms out of real bricks do we so why do handrails have to be metal to be hand rails (or as they are on a model, a representative of a handrail). As all the springs are plastic, should I be concerned about hammer blow on my code 100 track with these solid unsprung bogies. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Really looking forward to the 1P. Spot on for me and seriously excited at the prospect of them doing a S&DJR version.......not to mention the Midland version and the BR condensing jobbies........Oh dear me..... Rob I wonder if that is a leak and one wll be announced on Sunday. Interesting! Everyone surrounding me has been warned to expect no coherence from me on Sunday or Monday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I wonder if that is a leak and one wll be announced on Sunday. Interesting! Everyone surrounding me has been warned to expect no coherence from me on Sunday or Monday. The 1P was announced in Jan 2017 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) If you had wire handrails you wouldn't get the finer details such as the mounting plates at the top and bottom. 90_handrails.jpg I appreciate that a piece of wire is a piece of wire and cannot be altered to depict individual details, however the point is more to do with separate rails (as opposed to simply wire alone). For example, the Class 68 has uniquely-styled finer details at both ends of the cabdoor handrails and Dapol seem to have achieved depicting those successfully using separate fittings... And, okay, even on Bachmann's 66 (from over a decade ago), the front rails are of a unique shape and style, however they aren't crudely moulded onto the front of the model. There are many other models out there with with unique-shaped and styled rails, locos and many wagons in particular - look at the complex rails on the Bachmann JJA Auto-ballasters, or the DJ Models JIA wagons, or even Hornby's Seacows - all of the latter three featuring some incredibly intricate work with handrails in various materials. All have quite unique styles and designs of rails that could not be achieved using wire alone, but alas they have all been modelled accurately as separate fittings nonetheless. So it is possible. It just seems like a bit of a cop-out on Bachmann's part with this particular locomotive, that's all - and that's a shame on what appears an otherwise very nice model. Edited January 4, 2018 by YesTor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I look forward to seeing your scratchbuild 90's. So by that token only those willing or able to scratchbuild any given model should be allowed to air or discuss a viewpoint? This would be an incredibly quiet discussion forum if that were the case... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) How would the failed experts and fake modellers form these handrails out of wire? There is no bend over top and bottom.... Edited January 4, 2018 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 And, okay, even on Bachmann's 66 (from over a decade ago), the front rails are a unique shape and style, however they aren't crudely moulded onto the front of the model. Hi Yes Tor, Aren't we talking about the cab door handrails? Class 90s don't have any on the front. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 4, 2018 The 1P was announced in Jan 2017 The BR early emblem version, 58072, was withdrawn from Higbridge so I think that's the S&D version intended, not a blue version in this first round. In any case, I'm not sure the 1823 Class, built from 1889 onwards, that Bachmann are doing is quite close enough to the engines built for the S&DJR, which were similar to the contemporay Midland engines of the 6 and 1532 Classes. But all Class 47s look the same to me, so I may be being over-sensitive... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) I’m fine with them moulded on. But rising to the challenge anyway, how would I put a metal wire in here.. Slide it in from inside the body, through a hole at the bottom of the recess and thread it bottom to top, then glue it, like you would thread a handrail wire along a boiler into the footplate on a steam loco. I’d imagine it would be a bit of a faff on the production line, and not stand up to much handling in the field. Proto 2000 (US/HO gauge) had a similar style handrail, push (more like squash) fit using plastic wire 20 years ago, but when you look on ebay the truth speaks for itself, whilst they were revolutionary for their opening cab doors, plastic hand rails and even separate floating axlebox covers over bogie wheels.. most models have bits broken or missing. As I said.. there too fine, moulded on is just fine. Edited January 4, 2018 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Hi Yes Tor, Aren't we talking about the cab door handrails? Class 90s don't have any on the front. cheers Ben A. Hi Ben A, In the case of the Class 90, yes, we are talking about cab door handrails. By highlighting the 66, Dapol 68 and other examples of wagons etc I am simply trying to illustrate that it is indeed perfectly possible to model separately fitted rails in a variety of ways, whether that be from wire, metal rod, etched metal, plastic rod or uniquely shaped plastic fittings. Whether those examples mentioned happen to be on the front end, side, underside, or otherwise of the model is surely not so relevant? The point really is that they are separately modelled fittings wherever they happen to be on the model. cheers A Edited January 4, 2018 by YesTor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I appreciate that a piece of wire is a piece of wire and cannot be altered to depict individual details, however the point is more to do with separate rails (as opposed to simply wire alone). Whether it's RTR models or scratch built with regard to fine detail, I suppose a lot of it boils down to, "where does one stop?" Lets say Bachmann built the model with prototype depth door handrail recesses and fitted individiual rails within. Would we then be asking them why didn't you fit individual door handles? https://www.flickr.com/photos/briz55/14482888043/sizes/k/ Would that make the end product more expensive due to the additional components and assembly steps. I hazard a guess and say it would which in turn would probably lead to us end users moaning about the sky high price thus reducing sales potential. Tis a fine line the RTR manufactures tread. I'm glad I'm not in their shoes. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Nah. Don't watch videos about toy trains. Got much better things to do. So why do you spend time on RMweb then? Another example of a "railway modeller" self depreciating the hobby, not only by calling them toy trains but also saying that he has much better things to do. Edited January 4, 2018 by Colin_McLeod 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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