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Bachmann H1 Class Atlantic


Edwardian
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All we need now are some LBSCR coaches.

 

Plenty available if you build kits.... ;)

 

The problem with releasing RTR versions is that very few LBSC coaches lasted in the same condition after the 1920s. Most were either scrapped, went to the Isle Of Wight (mostly rebuilt), ended up as homes or very heavily rebuilt like the Hormby ex LSWR coaches were.

 

 

 

Jason

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Thinking about it would any of the Hornby Pullmans be suitable for these?

 

 

 

Jason

Not really, at least in its early career; though possibly in early SR days whilst it still carried LBSCR colours. 

 

I think the oldest of the 8-wheel Pullmans* modelled by Hornby were introduced in 1928, apart from the Devon Belle observation car, rebuilt post WW2 from a 1921 Clayton car that had been constructed on an ex-LNWR underframe.  

 

Not sure exactly how early the 12-wheel Cars* are, but I don't think that much older. A bit of Googling revealed a restored one 'Padua' stated to have been built in 1921 but suggesting that its type (B, later reclassified H) was built for use on the SECR. 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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attachicon.gifH1 39 with numberplate and LB&SCR.jpgattachicon.gifH1 39 as Royal engine.jpgattachicon.gifH1 39 as La France.jpgI have these 3 photos of H1 No 39 all showing variations on the LB&SCR livery. A beautiful choice from Bachmann, Brilliant!

 

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/h1-h2_01.html shows No.39 when she first became, La France, all decked out to pull the French President's train, in a style similar to your picture of her decorated for George V.

 

The picture must date from 1913, and shows that she still has bogie brakes fitted.

Edited by Edwardian
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Thinking about it would any of the Hornby Pullmans be suitable for these?

 

 

It is a pity, if unsurprising, that the Brighton's significant relationship with Pullman - from 1896 Pullmans were assembled at Preston Park, using parts shipped from the USA - is not reflected in this era in RTR form. A three-car Southern Belle, with a Pullman Pup, would make a fine train behind either model of Atlantic. 

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I've just realised what happened to all the LBSC carriages. most of them ended up being rebuilt as electric units and their underframes ended up as utility vans and brake vans.

 

 

 

Jason

 

This is why, in an RTR market that continues to focus on tooling that is at least compatible with Nationalised steam, I fear that RTR LBSC coaches may never appear in pre-Grouping form.  So far, manufacturers have gone one of two ways, the re-built state, e,g. Hornby's ex-LSWR coaches, or, something that lasted rather a long time and wasn't rebuilt, like the SE&CR third-generation Birdcage 3-set.

 

I doubt a manufacturer could justify the tooling costs of a coach if he could not sell it to a British Railways modeller, that's just where the numbers are.  For now, at least.

 

I think if you want Pullmans for the Southern Belle or LBSC bogie coaches for the City Limited, you'll be scratch-building for the next few years.

 

But do ask Bachmann to release the 8' Fox bogies produced for their Birdcage stock, as a lot of SE&CR, LB&SCR and LSWR coaches has essentially similar bogies.

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This is why, in an RTR market that continues to focus on tooling that is at least compatible with Nationalised steam, I fear that RTR LBSC coaches may never appear in pre-Grouping form.  So far, manufacturers have gone one of two ways, the re-built state, e,g. Hornby's ex-LSWR coaches, or, something that lasted rather a long time and wasn't rebuilt, like the SE&CR third-generation Birdcage 3-set.

 

I doubt a manufacturer could justify the tooling costs of a coach if he could not sell it to a British Railways modeller, that's just where the numbers are.  For now, at least.

 

I think if you want Pullmans for the Southern Belle or LBSC bogie coaches for the City Limited, you'll be scratch-building for the next few years.

 

But do ask Bachmann to release the 8' Fox bogies produced for their Birdcage stock, as a lot of SE&CR, LB&SCR and LSWR coaches has essentially similar bogies.

There is unfortunately (and literally) a big problem with LBSC coaches, in that many of them were built to the limits of the Brighton loading gauge and were thereby precluded from working off their home system.

 

This meant that, when the Brighton was converted to 3rd rail electric operation, some of those coaches that would fit were converted to pull-push sets and others went to the Isle of Wight where they generally underwent significant change. Those that were out-of-gauge for other parts of the Southern, and surplus to requirements elsewhere on their home turf got scrapped, in many cases, long before they were life expired.

 

So the problem is not only complete unsuitability for BR era layouts, but any usefulness for the SR period being restricted to ones set in ex-LBSCR territory.

 

Hornby's LSWR rebuilds don't and can't represent their pre-group origins, unless you are willing to cut them up and throw most of the parts away. They represent a (very welcome) bit of opportunism on Hornby's part in that they provide an additional use for their existing Maunsell underframes and running gear. Even BR modellers weren't well-served for panelled secondary stock before they came along, but as pre-group coaches, they are just red herrings. 

 

So agree about the Fox bogies, though

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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There is unfortunately (and literally) a big problem with LBSC coaches, in that many of them were built to the limits of the Brighton loading gauge and were thereby precluded from working off their home system.

 

This meant that, when the Brighton was converted to 3rd rail electric operation, some of those coaches that would fit were converted to pull-push sets and others went to the Isle of Wight where they generally underwent significant change. Those that were out-of-gauge for other parts of the Southern, and surplus to requirements elsewhere on their home turf got scrapped, in many cases, long before they were life expired.

 

So the problem is not only complete unsuitability for BR era layouts, but any usefulness for the SR period being restricted to ones set in ex-LBSCR territory.

 

John

 

This underscores how fortunate we are that Bachmann has been prepared to tool the Hs in early Southern/pre-Grouping condition, before they were cut down to fit the Southern loading gauge outside former Brighton lines.

 

I was both grateful and surprised that Bachmann did this with the H2, even though we have yet to see one in umber.

 

I am grateful and bl00dy amazed that they are going to do this with an H1!

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I wonder if they will ever do it in BR?

 

3 made it to BR days, one was modified to test valve gear for the leader, so this one is out. Of the other 2, one remained in wartime black, the other malachite.

 

Do I wait and hope Bachmann do this in BR ? A model I can use practically or go for LBSCR which will be limited to life as a shelf queen...

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Guest spet0114

....or go for LBSCR which will be limited to life as a shelf queen...

Still can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would pay a non-trivial amount of money for a working model loco then let something as trivial as a lack of contemporary stock prevent them from running it. Most odd...

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Still can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would pay a non-trivial amount of money for a working model loco then let something as trivial as a lack of contemporary stock prevent them from running it. Most odd...

The trouble with the LBSCR, is that is was air braked which means it cannot even take the birdcages out for a run. Likewise nothing LBSCR coach wise, made it to BR days without being modified out of all recognition. So yes it would end up as a pretty model with nothing to run with. It could make the odd appearance on my planned SECR layout. I agree, a non trivial amount of money for a model which serves no practical purpose other than popping on and off the layout with the odd appearance as a solo engine.

 

On the other hand, my H2 Beachy head on order, can run with tonnes of BR stock, will be useful and doubtless will be sound fitted at some point.

 

I could argue the same for the Stirling single and GNR Atlantic, but can get away running those in preservation with stock that is more modern.

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Image of La France on Facebook…

 

https://www.facebook.com/footplatekidderminster/photos/pcb.1646543992078446/1646542388745273/?type=3&theater

 

 

I suspect most of those bought will be used on what David Jenkinson called 'Funny trains' i.e. those that fall outside the main scope of the layout and that hide in storage sidings awaiting the odd run around the layout. I suspect mine may the catalyst to get me building coaches. That they are even making the model has come as a bit of a surprise so who knows they might offer a couple of LBSC bogie coaches in 2019. I'm slightly surprised they haven't added a SECR brake van this year.

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I wonder if they will ever do it in BR?

 

3 made it to BR days, one was modified to test valve gear for the leader, so this one is out. Of the other 2, one remained in wartime black, the other malachite.

 

Do I wait and hope Bachmann do this in BR ? A model I can use practically or go for LBSCR which will be limited to life as a shelf queen...

 

Well I can't see a manufacturer tooling up a model and releasing just one version. So expect SR and BR liveries at some point.

 

 

 

Jason

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The trouble with the LBSCR, is that is was air braked which means it cannot even take the birdcages out for a run. Likewise nothing LBSCR coach wise, made it to BR days without being modified out of all recognition. So yes it would end up as a pretty model with nothing to run with. It could make the odd appearance on my planned SECR layout. I agree, a non trivial amount of money for a model which serves no practical purpose other than popping on and off the layout with the odd appearance as a solo engine.

 

 

 

Do I wait and hope Bachmann do this in BR ? A model I can use practically or go for LBSCR which will be limited to life as a shelf queen...

 

Well, I'm not exactly Larry "the Coach" Coachman, but I think even I could bodge up a couple of Ratio Midland suburban coaches into passable LBSC coaches.  Indeed, Blue Lightening of this parish has made a very creditable job of doing just that.  While I come out in a cold sweat just thinking about etched brass coach construction, a five year old can build a plastic kit!  Once upon a time, people used to do all manner of wonderful things with the humble Triang clerestory!

 

I would love to see RTR pre-Grouping coaches.  I applaud Bachmann for making the Birdcages, but it is not realistic to expect even a representative sample of pre-Grouping coaches RTR, especially where they cannot be sold in quantity to the post-Nationalisation modeller, who continues to predominate. But, can we not put a little effort into producing some suitable stock for ourselves, after Bachmann has done the hard part by producing the locomotive?   

 

We cannot expect everything to be handed to us on a plate!

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....but can get away running those....

Get away with it? There's nothing to get away with!

 

It's your loco, run it with whatever you like. If you chose to impose rules on yourself, that's your call, but voluntarily confining a model as glorious as the single or H1 to the shelf strikes me (as mentioned above) as odd.

 

I'll be running my H1 with TEA tankers...

Edited by spet0114
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Well, I'm not exactly Larry "the Coach" Coachman, but I think even I could bodge up a couple of Ratio Midland suburban coaches into passable LBSC coaches.  Indeed, Blue Lightening of this parish has made a very creditable job of doing just that.  While I come out in a cold sweat just thinking about etched brass coach construction, a five year old can build a plastic kit!  Once upon a time, people used to do all manner of wonderful things with the humble Triang clerestory!

 

I would love to see RTR pre-Grouping coaches.  I applaud Bachmann for making the Birdcages, but it is not realistic to expect even a representative sample of pre-Grouping coaches RTR, especially where they cannot be sold in quantity to the post-Nationalisation modeller, who continues to predominate. But, can we not put a little effort into producing some suitable stock for ourselves, after Bachmann has done the hard part by producing the locomotive?   

 

We cannot expect everything to be handed to us on a plate!

Funny enough, I,ve got some 1910 French coaches. Could I pretend the French president came over with them? Oh no, loco dates after the visit,,,

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I've spotted a mistake – the Bachmann model is shown with vac pipes. I guess this will be in the detail bag for customer fitting but that could mean the buffer beam has a small hole in it. I hope they address that.

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Get away with it? There's nothing to get away with!

 

It's your loco, run it with whatever you like. If you chose to impose rules on yourself, that's your call, but voluntarily confining a model as glorious as the single or H1 to the shelf strikes me (as mentioned above) as odd.

 

I'll be running my H1 with TEA tankers...

 

A good point. 

 

I was very taken with the Hattons SE&CR P Class - I've pre-ordered the pair in lined Wainwright livery - but there is real doubt as to what stock these locos ran with when introduced in 1909/10. Later, by, 1912-14ish IIRC, we have a pretty good idea about what the remaining auto-fitted Ps were hauling, but not before.

 

I mention this because it made me think about what all those enthusiastic purchasers expected to run with their pre-Grouping liveried Ps.  Did it bother them that there were no matching coaches, or, even, that for a few years no one could even identify what they ran with?

 

So I asked.  It turns out that most people will buy it and run it regardless of not having the 'right' stock to go with it.  They were not concerned about finding prototypically pre-Grouping or preservation-era stock to match.  It didn't seem to matter.  They would buy it and run it simply for the joy of it.  I know that I sometimes come across as a bit of a pedant, but, you know, it actually cheered me up no end to learn that. 

 

For the joy of it.  Choose your parameters to suit yourself, be it run all or anything, or just what passed your particular prototype location on the afternoon of 3 July 1959.  It matters not; you only need to meet your own criteria.  Please, though, make sure one of them is the joy of it.

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Get away with it? There's nothing to get away with!

 

It's your loco, run it with whatever you like. If you chose to impose rules on yourself, that's your call, but voluntarily confining a model as glorious as the single or H1 to the shelf strikes me (as mentioned above) as odd.

 

I'll be running my H1 with TEA tankers...

 

Do you want me to paint it in Colas livery for you?

 

Or EWS?

 

 

Jason

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Get away with it? There's nothing to get away with!

 

It's your loco, run it with whatever you like. If you chose to impose rules on yourself, that's your call, but voluntarily confining a model as glorious as the single or H1 to the shelf strikes me (as mentioned above) as odd.

 

I'll be running my H1 with TEA tankers...

 

Mine will have to make do with a LBSCR Push Pull Balloon coach. That took me so long to make, I cant see my self doing anything more appropriate for a while

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A good point. 

 

I was very taken with the Hattons SE&CR P Class - I've pre-ordered the pair in lined Wainwright livery - but there is real doubt as to what stock these locos ran with when introduced in 1909/10. Later, by, 1912-14ish IIRC, we have a pretty good idea about what the remaining auto-fitted Ps were hauling, but not before.

 

I mention this because it made me think about what all those enthusiastic purchasers expected to run with their pre-Grouping liveried Ps.  Did it bother them that there were no matching coaches, or, even, that for a few years no one could even identify what they ran with?

 

So I asked.  It turns out that most people will buy it and run it regardless of not having the 'right' stock to go with it.  They were not concerned about finding prototypically pre-Grouping or preservation-era stock to match.  It didn't seem to matter.  They would buy it and run it simply for the joy of it.  I know that I sometimes come across as a bit of a pedant, but, you know, it actually cheered me up no end to learn that. 

 

For the joy of it.  Choose your parameters to suit yourself, be it run all or anything, or just what passed your particular prototype location on the afternoon of 3 July 1959.  It matters not; you only need to meet your own criteria.  Please, though, make sure one of them is the joy of it.

 

Whatever floats your boat. At least the Brighton Atlantics had air brakes  :jester:

 

The sub-text to "Rule One" is that anything behind the tender only counts as scenery anyway, so it doesn't matter what it is or what livery it carries.

 

Personally, the idea leaves me cold and I'd rather operate the loco on its own than with stock that could never have run with the prototype. In the absence of anything totally authentic being available r-t-r to run with La France, Hornby 12-wheel Pullmans would at least look the part. 

 

However, I recognise that I am fortunate in that my interests lie in an era and area where I no longer need resort to anything more extreme than "plausible substitution" of that kind and, in recent times, a decreasing necessity even for that. It, most definitely, wasn't always so!

 

I'm also fortunate in considering that my pre-ordered H2 in LNWR lined-out black will look just as handsome as most other engines so liveried and all the fancy versions, too.  :sungum:

 

John

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As to 'the joy of it', I love the Bachmann pic of the H1 and below have modified it slightly to suit some of the pics around of the prototypes.

 

Will remove if required, and thanks Andy for posting the original.

 

Crest added to rear driver splasher, plate on cabside, smaller script with extra letter added.

 

post-7929-0-29335500-1515369580_thumb.jpg

 

cheers   (and what a superb model!  Makes the SECR C type positively ordinary)

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As to 'the joy of it', I love the Bachmann pic of the H1 and below have modified it slightly to suit some of the pics around of the prototypes.

 

Will remove if required, and thanks Andy for posting the original.

 

Crest added to rear driver splasher, plate on cabside, smaller script with extra letter added.

 

attachicon.gif39_H1_LBSCR_portrait1_2abcd_r1200a.jpg

 

cheers   (and what a superb model!  Makes the SECR C type positively ordinary)

 

What a brilliant job!

 

In pedant-mode, I point out that it should be twin monograms, not crests, and that whilst wearing this livery, No.39 would have bogie brakes, which I doubt it would be possible to add to the image [groan at my own rivet-counting].

 

But that is clever work indeed, and gives a very good idea of what a Bachmann H1, backdated 7 or so years would look like.

 

You know those people who collect LNER A4s, in all conditions and liveries?   There is potential for one Heck of an H1 and H2 collection at some point!

 

Along with the GN Large Atlantic, these large, powerful state of the art Edwardian express passenger types are 'modern image' for me!

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What a brilliant job!

 

In pedant-mode, I point out that it should be twin monograms, not crests, and that whilst wearing this livery, No.39 would have bogie brakes, which I doubt it would be possible to add to the image [groan at my own rivet-counting].

 

But that is clever work indeed, and gives a very good idea of what a Bachmann H1, backdated 7 or so years would look like.

 

You know those people who collect LNER A4s, in all conditions and liveries?   There is potential for one Heck of an H1 and H2 collection at some point!

 

Along with the GN Large Atlantic, these large, powerful state of the art Edwardian express passenger types are 'modern image' for me!

 

Alas you're right about collecting the things (which in reality have little to do with my area of modelling interest) because the H1 is irresistibly pretty like various other Bachmann Pre-Group engines while 'Beachy Head' got onto the Western on specials so could conceivably have got even further.  Bachmann definitely know how to produce a money spinner. 

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