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That's true ... and when BR realised how boring and drab it was having everything uniformly liveried, the next lot of variations started appearing (large logo, executive livery, etc.). That's not to say the blue/grey was bad, just that once there was so little variation, it became boring (for want of a better term). Notwithstanding that, the blue and blue/grey era liveries lasted longer than just about any other, apart from GWR chocolate and cream coaches and green locos (I'm not counting wagon liveries here as they tended to get very weatherbeaten so had lots of variations even when ostensibly all in one colour scheme!).

 

History seems to repeat itself. At nationalization, BR inherited lots of colours so made everything crimson and cream, which was later replaced by all Maroon. The regions found this boring and brought back choc and cream and SR green. This lead to mixed colour trains that lead BR to Corporate blue. Everyone found that dull, which lead to the bright liveries from the mid 80s...

 

Myself, sometimes I like to run a rake mixed and sometimes all the same.

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History seems to repeat itself. At nationalization, BR inherited lots of colours so made everything crimson and cream, which was later replaced by all Maroon. The regions found this boring and brought back choc and cream and SR green. This lead to mixed colour trains that lead BR to Corporate blue. Everyone found that dull, which lead to the bright liveries from the mid 80s...

 

Myself, sometimes I like to run a rake mixed and sometimes all the same.

.... not forgetting, of course, that the Eastern Region did consider going back to ( ersatz ) teak livery ............

 

( Like everything, blue locos & blue.grey coaches looked great WHEN FRESH 'n' SHINY ........... but - harking back to the 'mixed liveries' theme - anything fresh soon got mixed in with the faded, the airless-sprayed, the cleaning-stained and the downright-filthy-whatever-colour-it-actually-might-be-underneath.)

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.... not forgetting, of course, that the Eastern Region did consider going back to ( ersatz ) teak livery ............

 [/si)

That would have been fun painting teak patterns on steel bodied Mk1s!

 

The midland region thought about going back to maroon only it was already so...

 

I wonder if Bachmann's SR malachite will be noticeably different than the Southern region BR green (I know today it's too dark). If they are close, the 1948 un branded SR green could probably mingle with the BR Southern green coaches without anyone really noticing even if technically it could never happen (the SR green probably long since panted).

 

My thoughts are to buy 6 coaches: set 69 in the BR southern green, the composite third in the SR green, and 3 crimson creams representing the set in winter. It will allow 2 car (BR green), 3 car (crimsons), 4 car (crimsons + SR green) and 5 car (crimsons plus 2 BR green) formations in realistic manor, covering as many types as possible without the expense of all 8 coaches. I generally find stock with close coupling systems derail frequently once we get past 6 coaches on my layout as the spring does not have the force to return, the non close coupling easily running to 16, although 9 looks the best max size and avoids having both ends on opposite curves at the same time.

Larger formations than 5 new Bullied's can be supplemented either by older versions I have (they still light years ahead of Triang and Lima Mk1s) or Mk1 stock or Maunsall's.

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That would have been fun painting teak patterns on steel bodied Mk1s!

 

The midland region thought about going back to maroon only it was already so...

 

I wonder if Bachmann's SR malachite will be noticeably different than the Southern region BR green (I know today it's too dark). If they are close, the 1948 un branded SR green could probably mingle with the BR Southern green coaches without anyone really noticing even if technically it could never happen (the SR green probably long since panted).

 

My thoughts are to buy 6 coaches: set 69 in the BR southern green, the composite third in the SR green, and 3 crimson creams representing the set in winter. It will allow 2 car (BR green), 3 car (crimsons), 4 car (crimsons + SR green) and 5 car (crimsons plus 2 BR green) formations in realistic manor, covering as many types as possible without the expense of all 8 coaches.

 

I generally find stock with close coupling systems derail frequently once we get past 6 coaches on my layout as the spring does not have the force to return,

 

the non close coupling easily running to 16, although 9 looks the best max size and avoids having both ends on opposite curves at the same time.

Larger formations than 5 new Bullied's can be supplemented either by older versions I have (they still light years ahead of Triang and Lima Mk1s) or Mk1 stock or Maunsall's.

The derailment issue is easily fixed by using Roco/alternative Hornby couplers within sets, these lock the pairs of CCUs together and the springs cease to have any effect on running stability. 

 

John

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I have raised the issue / my opinion with Bachmann and we shall have to wait and see, that's all I can say for now, it will ultimately be their decision taking into account their previous releases and standpoint I am sure.

Your reply does not give much hope that Bachmann will make any change.     Possibly a situation of " We know best! "

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The derailment issue is easily fixed by using Roco/alternative Hornby couplers within sets, these lock the pairs of CCUs together and the springs cease to have any effect on running stability. 

 

John

Agree, but unfortunately it happens between the loco and coaches. It is not an issue when said loco also uses CCS itself. For example no issues when the train is pulled by a 71, however a Bullied Diesel or a class 45, which have buffer beams on the bogies, and therefore cannot use CCS will happily do 10 circuits then, crunch, the lead coach derails.

Guess I need a convertor coach. CCS on one end and fixed bogie coupling the other.

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Agree, but unfortunately it happens between the loco and coaches. It is not an issue when said loco also uses CCS itself. For example no issues when the train is pulled by a 71, however a Bullied Diesel or a class 45, which have buffer beams on the bogies, and therefore cannot use CCS will happily do 10 circuits then, crunch, the lead coach derails.

Guess I need a convertor coach. CCS on one end and fixed bogie coupling the other.

Possibly.

 

Over the Christmas break, I fitted conventional Kadees direct to the underframes of the van ends of a friend's Gresley non-corridor set for just that reason. They previously had #18s in the CCUs and didn't like a couple of the crossovers on his layout when being hauled by certain locos. This is on a set of only four coaches. The intermediate (Roco-fitted) CCUs have never given any trouble.

 

Much also depends on what couplers you are using between loco and train. In my experience, tension locks are far more prone to such "issues" than Kadees.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I think In this day and age we should be able to expect bogie rolling stock, mainly coaches, to run

problem free straight from the box. It is gratifying to read that the problem of coaches derailing for

no apparent reason is not confined to myself.

I have noticed that the longer the train, the worse it gets. In train of over six coaches the front few

tend to be most at risk, and cannot handle the weight of the rest of the train behind them, particularly

exiting a curve, and not a particularly tight one.

I am convinced that the way the close coupling system is designed is at the heart of the problem.

My railway has room for forty 4 wheel wagon freight trains, never a problem if I run trains of this length,

but twelve coaches, forget it !.

Am I right in thinking that German manufacturers cured this problem years ago.

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I think In this day and age we should be able to expect bogie rolling stock, mainly coaches, to run

problem free straight from the box. It is gratifying to read that the problem of coaches derailing for

no apparent reason is not confined to myself.

I have noticed that the longer the train, the worse it gets. In train of over six coaches the front few

tend to be most at risk, and cannot handle the weight of the rest of the train behind them, particularly

exiting a curve, and not a particularly tight one.

I am convinced that the way the close coupling system is designed is at the heart of the problem.

My railway has room for forty 4 wheel wagon freight trains, never a problem if I run trains of this length,

but twelve coaches, forget it !.

Am I right in thinking that German manufacturers cured this problem years ago.

In my experience, problems of this kind are much more likely with new coaches, once CCUs "bed in" they function more smoothly.

 

New ones are more likely to jerk so I always lubricate them using powdered graphite or a soft pencil before putting them into traffic.  

 

Six coaches is the point at which any troubles have always started to become apparent to me and the exit from a curve is the most likely place for such occurrences.

 

When I used to fit Kadees throughout sets of Bachmann Mk.1s, random uncoupling caused by the rather flexible links was just as much a problem as derailments. They all now have Keen links and Roco couplers and I no longer think about either issue, whatever the train length.

 

In practice, it's not the CCU that causes problems, it's what you plug into it. That's why German and other continental brands are trouble free and UK ones aren't.

 

Neither Bachmann and Hornby ever publicise the fact that, for optimum performance, adjacent pairs need to be locked together in the way that Roco and other continental couplers do it. The more slack, the greater the likelihood of problems. Hornby supply the remedy but fail to explain it. 

 

John.

Edited by Dunsignalling
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In my experience, problems of this kind are much more likely with new coaches, once CCUs "bed in" they function more smoothly.

 

New ones are more likely to jerk so I always lubricate them using powdered graphite or a soft pencil before putting them into traffic.  

 

Six coaches is the point at which any troubles have always started to become apparent to me and the exit from a curve is the most likely place for such occurrences.

 

When I used to fit Kadees throughout sets of Bachmann Mk.1s, random uncoupling caused by the rather flexible links was just as much a problem as derailments. They all now have Keen links and Roco couplers and I no longer think about either issue, whatever the train length.

 

In practice, it's not the CCU that causes problems, it's what you plug into it. That's why German and other continental brands are trouble free and UK ones aren't.

 

Neither Bachmann and Hornby ever publicise the fact that, for optimum performance, adjacent pairs need to be locked together in the way that Roco and other continental couplers do it. The more slack, the greater the likelihood of problems. Hornby supply the remedy but fail to explain it. 

 

John.

 

Many thanks for that, John. You have made several points worth taking on board.

I have been carefully watching the behaviour of a derailing bogie exiting a curve. The leading wheelset seems to gently

lift off the track, the trailing wheelset then drops down onto the sleepers .This is possibly caused by the resistance / weight of

the coaches yet to leave the curve putting a greater strain on the coupling, and lifting the bogie slightly.

 

I think the rather more unsightly Roco couplings supplied by Hornby, may have a future !.

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Many thanks for that, John. You have made several points worth taking on board.

I have been carefully watching the behaviour of a derailing bogie exiting a curve. The leading wheelset seems to gently

lift off the track, the trailing wheelset then drops down onto the sleepers .This is possibly caused by the resistance / weight of

the coaches yet to leave the curve putting a greater strain on the coupling, and lifting the bogie slightly.

 

I think the rather more unsightly Roco couplings supplied by Hornby, may have a future !.

If you take out the metal loops and use them upside down, they become a great deal less obtrusive.

 

John

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That what I use, a 4 wheel Bachmann NPCS with the CCU at one end locked by drilling through and screwing in a 10BA screw.

 

Dscf4714_640.jpg

 

Nice idea. I had in mind to completely remove the CCUs on all my coaches and fix kadees to the chassis directly, but this looks much less of a hassle. So, if they then need to be 'sold on', can the screw be taken out and the CCU work as normal?

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Talking about Bachmann’s BR(S) Green, the green on the latest PMV is noticeably lighter than on its latest Mk1s, GUV and horse boxes and doesn’t look out of place alongside Hornby’s Maunsells. So the PMV green would probably be ok, but if they use the darker Mk1 version I might well defer a purchase until they change green.

Edited by brushman47544
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Bachmann originally produced the Bulleid and SR Mk1 coaches in malachite green. Most of the Bulleid coaches that Bachmann are modelling seem to have been made just after nationalisation but before British Railways settled on the crimson and cream livery. I am wondering if British Railways continued to paint the Bulleid coaches Southern Malachite green but with British Railways lettering. It looks like several did not receive crimson and cream livery until about 1955 and then went on to BR green shortly afterwards.

 

I agree that the later BR green livery that Bachmann used looks too dark but Graham Farish used a lighter green for their recent Bulleid coaches which was still darker than Graham Farish of Poole used for their green MK1s which was just right.

 

Brushman may be interested to read that some of the Bulleid coaches used on the Royal Wessex had British Railways totems. British Railways used Bulleid coaches instead of Mk1s for a while because the Bulleid coaches had greater seating capacity than the Mk1s. I think some people will not be happy if Bachmann makes some Bulleid coaches in dark green with British Railways totems.

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Bachmann originally produced the Bulleid and SR Mk1 coaches in malachite green. Most of the Bulleid coaches that Bachmann are modelling seem to have been made just after nationalisation but before British Railways settled on the crimson and cream livery. I am wondering if British Railways continued to paint the Bulleid coaches Southern Malachite green but with British Railways lettering. It looks like several did not receive crimson and cream livery until about 1955 and then went on to BR green shortly afterwards.

 

I agree that the later BR green livery that Bachmann used looks too dark but Graham Farish used a lighter green for their recent Bulleid coaches which was still darker than Graham Farish of Poole used for their green MK1s which was just right.

 

Brushman may be interested to read that some of the Bulleid coaches used on the Royal Wessex had British Railways totems. British Railways used Bulleid coaches instead of Mk1s for a while because the Bulleid coaches had greater seating capacity than the Mk1s. I think some people will not be happy if Bachmann makes some Bulleid coaches in dark green with British Railways toteby Bachmann ms.

I know the Royal Wessex Mk1 sets carried the BR coaching stock roundel (uniquely on green Mk.1s at the time), but wasn't that later? When the Royal Wessex began, the stock would surely have been crimson/cream. Did the (green?) Bulleids that temporarily replaced them get them too? One or two have in preservation, but that's nothing to go by.

 

In any case, the 2-sets being made by Bachmann were exclusively allocated to West-of-England services*. AFAIK they never went to Bournemouth or Weymouth* (or Swanage) in normal traffic, 3-sets being the shortest Bulleid formations used on those lines.

 

I agree about the shade of green used by Farish, that would be very acceptable on the OO Bulleids, as would that used on the OO PMVs.

 

John

 

* At least until circa the end of the 1964 summer timetable when the WR really started to carve up the WoE service pattern they inherited on 1st January 1963

Edited by Dunsignalling
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So do I.

At least we would be able to buy them within 12 months from the official announcement.

 

I think this will be a bit of an acid test for Bachmann, having done the research on Bulleid coaches for the N gauge versions they should have the wind behind them in getting these to the shops. Hornby seem now to be able to get a very good model 'from flash to bang' within 12 months. If Bachmann cannot achieve the same then Hornby will take the hint that they themselves can safely announce a new item and get it out first. I still hope that Hornby will give us the Bulleid shorties next year, that should be a very easy win for them and I think they would sell well, even if they came out at the same time as the Bachmann's longer versions 

 

all the best

 

Godfrey

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I know the Royal Wessex Mk1 sets carried the BR coaching stock roundel (uniquely on green Mk.1s at the time), but wasn't that later? When the Royal Wessex began, the stock would surely have been crimson/cream. Did the (green?) Bulleids that temporarily replaced them get them too? One or two have in preservation, but that's nothing to go by.

 

In any case, the 2-sets being made by Bachmann were exclusively allocated to West-of-England services. AFAIK they never went to Bournemouth or Weymouth (or Swanage) in normal traffic, 3-sets being the shortest Bulleid formations used on those lines.

 

I agree about the shade of green used by Farish, that would be very acceptable on the OO Bulleids, as would that used on the OO PMVs.

 

John

There is a picture of Bulleid brake third no 2529 from set 864 with a BR carriage-stock crest for the 'Royal Wessex' duty taken by A.E. West at Eastleigh in June 1962 in plate 171 on page 158 of 'An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches' by Mike King.

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I think it's mentioned in Parkin that 'The Royal Wessex' was one of the first trains to formed of the new mk1 stock, in crimson/cream (including the RFO-RK-RSO dining 'triple') It's a while since I checked, but I think this and the other mk1 trains did a lot of publicity runs to show the public the new standard British Railways stock

Edited by keefer
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I think it's mentioned in Parkin that 'The Royal Wessex' was one of the first trains to formed of the new mk1 stock, in crimson/cream (including the RFO-RK-RSO dining 'triple') It's a while since I checked, but I think this and the other mk1 trains did a lot of publicity runs to show the public the new standard British Railways stock

It is mentioned on page 3. The 'Royal Wessex' was one of the Festival of Britain trains.

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Various pictures of the train on the SEMG website - http://www.semgonline.com/misc/named_04.html - including one with a Bulleid brake at the front followed by MK1s all in crimson and cream. 

 

And an outing for a Lord Nelson - https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SR-4-6-0s/i-T4HLDm9

Edited by RFS
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