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60009 Union of South Africa 1960 works plates

60009




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#1 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 14:42

Hello, I have an elderly Bachmann A4 which came from Manchester Model Railways (thank you David). It has a variety of etched plates.  I would like it to represent the prototype as running in the later 50s / early 60s

27801260609_de108d75f2_c.jpg
Bachmann A4 - plus 25 years old?
.
I have already recoloured the backgrounds of the name plates from red to black.  I am aware that the two cast springboks only appeared on the cab sides after 1970 - and I have seen a comment that the works plates were then positioned inside the cab.  The works plates then seemingly reappeared on the outside of the cab later in preservation when the two cast springboks were removed.  My understanding is that the single springbok on the left hand side appeared in 1954.  Did the engine have works plates on the outside of the cab in the 1950s early 60s?
 
Just to confuse matters I have come across the picture below, I believe from the front cover of a book by Peter Herring published in 2004.  I am puzzled by the combination of black background to the namplate, early emblem and overhead warning stickers.  I am thinking that it is a view after preservation - perhaps during its sodjourn in Fife on the Locharty Railway?
 
25742918918_765b60cdcb_o.jpg
Union of South Africa off the front cover of Peter Herring's book, published 2004

Then we have what looks to be a 1960s image at Kings X from Miles C Parkinson - but with the cast springboks on the cab side (was this October 1964 when 60009 headed the last steam hauled express from Kings X (although it is facing trhe wrong way!)).

38906015224_c46e72cdc2_c.jpg
Union of South Africa at Kings X in the 'green diesel era'.

Any help would be much appreciated.
 
Regards
Ray

Edited by Silver Sidelines, 16 January 2018 - 08:17 .
Copyright breach investigated - images not hosted on RMweb.




#2 5944

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 14:30

The last photo doesn't show cast springboks, they are panels with the South African crest painted on, affixed to the cabside. The cast springbok was only on the driver's side. The photo above appears to be at Didcot, early 1990. When the loco was overhauled in the late 90s the crests were refitted. I believe the worksplates are in the cab. Fox Transfers do the crests if you want them.

#3 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 16:25

Thanks 5944 - yes the early emblem picture looks like Didcot. The early 90s ties in with Bachmann's instructions (below) which has a date of October 1991 for the overhaul and the positioning of the works plates outside of the cab.

The last photo doesn't show cast springboks, they are panels with the South African crest painted on, affixed to the cabside. The cast springbok was only on the driver's side. The photo above appears to be at Didcot, early 1990. When the loco was overhauled in the late 90s the crests were refitted. I believe the worksplates are in the cab. Fox Transfers do the crests if you want them.


27855542119_4437f7bb87_c.jpg
Bachmann 60009 instructions

I am aware that currently there are painted crests attached to the cab sides (on a separate plate). I am not convinced that you can see the painted plates on the 1960s Kings X picture - the image looks more like one of the cast springboks - which according to Bachmann did not appear until 1980.

Oh for more pictures!

Thanks again

Ray


Edited by Silver Sidelines, 11 January 2018 - 16:27 .


#4 Steamysandy

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 20:14

Looking at 2 photos in"The Gresley Pacific's " by O S Nock,the Cabsides were adorned with the South African coats of arms on both sides and the Springbok was mounted half way along the boiler on the drivers side.
One of the photos also shows the early BR crest on the tender so she must have carried these crests for quite a while!

Edited by Steamysandy, 11 January 2018 - 20:17 .

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#5 Steamysandy

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 20:37

As a matter of interest ,on looking through the aforementioned book,it appears that 60012 Commonwealth of Australia also had the Country's crests on the Cabsides at least in the early to mid 1950s( B R early crest)
At the other extreme is a disgustingly filthy 60002 Sir Murrough Wilson on the up Flying Scotsman coming off the King Edward Bridge.
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#6 Steamysandy

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 21:01

Third post!
Just remembered ,I have a Hornby R 2302 which was a special Hornby club model(500 only) of Union of South Africa with the crests all laid out as described.It originally had a 3 pole motor but I switched it for a 5 pole one off a Flying Scotsman to slow it down!
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#7 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 22:10

Thank you Sandy

Looking at 2 photos in"The Gresley Pacific's " by O S Nock,t..

Need to look in the loft as I might have a copy of that book!

 

Sadly it is increasingly looking as if I need to source some crests and cannot use the works plates!

 

Pleased to hear about King Edwards Bridge, in my opinion one of the best railway locations in the UK.

 

Regards

 

Ray



#8 slilley

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:32

Looking at 2 photos in"The Gresley Pacific's " by O S Nock,the Cabsides were adorned with the South African coats of arms on both sides and the Springbok was mounted half way along the boiler on the drivers side.
One of the photos also shows the early BR crest on the tender so she must have carried these crests for quite a while!

 The Springbok on the boiler  side was presented to Brirish Railways by a newspaper proprietor from Bloemfontein.  The engraving on the body of the Springbok says it was presneted in December 1953, but in reality it was not fitted until 20th April 1954 during an overhaul at Doncaster.



#9 slilley

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:40

The other thing about 60009 is that for most of its life it had a numberplate with a curly tail 6 and 9, only at the very end did it have straight tail numbers. These can just be seen on this picture at Darlington.

 

It was one of the last A4 to be overhauled at Darlington.

 

The attached picture is courtesy of the Class 47 Preservation Project Archive.

 

Simon

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  • CNV00005.JPG

Edited by slilley, 21 January 2018 - 12:27 .

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#10 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 22:39

Oh thank you Simon
 
Another little challenge then - find a suitable Font and print a new smoke box number!

The other thing about 60009 is that for most of its life it had a numberplate with a curly tail 6 and 9, only at the very end did it have straight tail numbers. These can just be seen on this picture at Darlington.
 
It was the last A4 to be overhauled at Darlington....

You can see the curly six and the number nine on the Kings X picture above.
 
I have to say I think the picture at Darlington works is a bit sad.  As a twelve or thirteen year old I was privlledged to be taken around Darlington Works on a Stephenson Locomotive Society tour by a family friend - probably 1961.  I think the two pictures below date from that occasion. 

5099982255_ea4c909852_o.jpg
The end of the line - Darlington Works

5099976349_829456d6cc_o.jpg
Fresh out of Darlington Works - Standard 4MT 80119

Edited by Silver Sidelines, 13 January 2018 - 22:41 .


#11 slilley

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 10:47

The picture I posted yesterday was from darlington before loco had its last overhaul.


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#12 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:31

Moving along I have bought a pair of Fox transfers:

27903866079_493b612c62.jpg
 
Just admiring them.....
 
A little bit of background here:
 
39651624662_738b8770e4_b.jpg
 
Ray

Edited by Silver Sidelines, 14 January 2018 - 14:32 .


#13 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 20:04

It is a good research project!

I do like this image from off Flickr (copyright IHAS Collection)

1965 and 'No Coat of Arms' although if you look carefully there is a line and possibly bolt holes where the plate with the South Africa crest might have been!

8497696461_ff61a4a1fa_b.jpg
A4 Pacific No.60009 at Bridge of Dun

#14 rodent279

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 20:29

Can't add anything to the historical information, but here's a broadside of UoSA, just north of Radwell, climbing to Sharnbrook with a tour, in November 2005.

https://flic.kr/p/LU7yUG

Edited by rodent279, 14 January 2018 - 20:31 .

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#15 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 20:43

Thanks - it does look very 1960s

Can't add anything to the historical information, but here's a broadside of UoSA, just north of Radwell, climbing to Sharnbrook with a tour, in November 2005.

https://flic.kr/p/LU7yUG


The red background to the name plate is the 'give away'.

Regards

Ray

#16 keefer

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 21:02

no help to the OP's desired timeframe, but a poor pic of 60009 in April 1985 at Perth railfair.
(red nameplates and seems to have cabside Springbok)

scan0003.jpg
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#17 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 23:18

Just to keep the pot boiling another image - supposed 24 Ocotober 1964. Black plates, no crests and no curly numbers.

25841869348_1aa8ac290a_c.jpg
60009 24.10.64 Gateshead Shed by Ken Groundwater

#18 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 20:52

Hello Simon

......It was the last A4 to be overhauled at Darlington...

More research - from the 'Last Breaths of Steam' Michael S Welch (1998)

 

In October 1963 the Pacifics at Glasgow and Aberdeen were supplemented by a number  of A4s surplus to requirements in England, though some were first stored as reserve power.  These engines included No.60019 Bittern which was initially stored at Kittybrewster shed.  No 60019 later became the last A4 to be granted a heavy repair, at Darlington Works in March 1965, and survived to the end of the class in September 1966.



#19 Steamport Southport

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 20:16

Photograph in Locomotives In Detail 3: Gresley 4-6-2 A4 Class by David Clarke on page 82.

 

Shows it just after overhaul at Doncaster Works in November 1963 with the South African coat of arms clearly visible on the right hand cabside.

 

It also says on page 49 that they were carried until 1966. Was it a case of removing them for safe keeping?

 

 

 

 

Jason


Edited by Steamport Southport, 17 January 2018 - 20:19 .

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#20 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 00:22

Thanks Jason

..It also says on page 49 that they were carried until 1966. Was it a case of removing them for safe keeping?.

I have to say the two pictures above would tend to contradict the statement about being carried until 1966.  Perhaps towards the end of steam they were not carried continuously and only came out for high days and holidays.  The crests do appear to have been painted on a separate plaque which might have been removed for safe keeping.  Most engines had their nameplates removed against theft.  Look how many pictures there are of engines without their cast smokebox numbers.  Looks like my 60009 will be getting her cab transfers after all.

 

Regards

 

Ray


Edited by Silver Sidelines, 18 January 2018 - 00:22 .


#21 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 13:56

Getting warmer - 1960/61 with cab crests on Flickr

 

https://flic.kr/p/ggB1Pt

 

Thank you 'Alan K'

 

And further confirmation (through a haze of steam) at Doncaster in November 1963

 

https://flic.kr/p/buCHCi

 

Thank you Dave Wragg

 

Ray


Edited by Silver Sidelines, 18 January 2018 - 14:06 .


#22 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 14:22

Some more pictures with cab crests, black name plate, 1960s on Flickr:

 

on shed at : https://flic.kr/p/qQFb4Y

 

in traffic:Aberdeen Ferryhill: https://flic.kr/p/r5LTkA and https://flic.kr/p/qud8z8

 

leaving Ferryhill shed yards; https://flic.kr/p/qQGA15

 

close up of original corridor tender: https://flic.kr/p/qQFb8L

 

Thank you 'cove59'

 

Ray



#23 Trev52A

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 18:04

Here's a 'Brownie 127' shot of mine at St. Margaret's shed on 20th October 1964, a few days before the 'final A4 to Kings Cross' special, as it appeared in the colour picture shown earlier, taken at Gateshead shed on 24th October by my sadly-missed friend, Ken Groundwater. 

 

Black nameplates, no crest (or worksplates) on cab, normal numbers on smokebox.

 

(440a) 60009 St Margarets MPD 20-10-64 (Trevor Ermel).jpg

 

Trevor


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#24 Silver Sidelines

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 18:55

Thanks Trevor

 

What a splendid image - It all adds to the picture

. Black nameplates, no crest (or worksplates) on cab, normal numbers on smokebox.

I am of a mind that by October 1964 the cab side crests had been removed for safe keeping - the more I look at the picture in Post 13 above the more I can make out a patch outline with screw holes in the corners.

 

Ray


Edited by Silver Sidelines, 18 January 2018 - 18:58 .

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#25 Trev52A

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 14:08

@Ray

 

After reading all of this interesting thread relating to the crests on the cab side of 60009, I hunted my model out of the loft for a close look.

 

(IMG_1510a).jpg

(IMG_1511a).jpg

This started life as a second-hand Hornby 60030 Golden Fleece which a friend of mine renumbered/named to 60009. I realise the tender is now not correct in certain details but I'm happy to live with that. I have fitted a vacuum pipe under the front buffer beam (a wirewound guitar string, although it needs a touch of matt black paint) and AWS 'bash plate', but the cab/tender fall plate and cab doors are still to do.

 

It represents the state it was in after its final overhaul at Doncaster in November 1963, to correspond with the picture you quoted, i.e. black nameplate, straight (not curly) numbers on smokebox and with crests on cab side. Checking with my own photo from 1964 (shown earlier) I now realise the cab crests should not be there, as I wanted to have it as I remembered it! Any suggestions as to how best to remove them, please? I also see the electrification flashes are not as per the prototype so I expect some T-cut and gentle application with a cotton bud should remove them? I have some flashes from a previous job which I can apply in the correct place - i.e. on the black smokebox side casing, not the green body. And apparently none at all near the top of the boiler.

 

Regarding the cabside crests, could it be that (on the prototype) they were only fitted for photography reasons during the 1963 Doncaster overhaul but removed before it entered traffic? The picture you posted from November 1963 (with steam obscuring the cab) was not conclusive on my monitor - can you really see the crests on the original picture? - in which case I stand corrected. We need more photos from 1963/64, I think.

 

All part of the fun of going into the details of the subject, isn't it?

 

Cheers

Trevor

 

 


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