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Color of "Loco Coal" wagons ?





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#1 george stein

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:18

As these wagons were assembled of iron sheets with rivets, were they still painted basic GWR gray?  Must have shown a lot of rust.  Thanks





#2 M.I.B

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 06:45

Coal dust with some rainwater on top will form an acidic solution which would play havoc with the insides of tenders/ bunkers.  I know the GWR treated Welsh steam coal with  kid gloves (small wooden trucks in coaling stations and not dropped from great heights as per LNER and LMS coaling towers) - but even hopper loading of coal at the pit would have had an abrasive reaction of coal against the insides of the wagons.

 

The jury is still out regarding colour.  Russell states black but many others believe that the black is actually a very dark grey mis-viewed.

 

Given the scarcity of colour film in the 1940s, I am sure nobody ever took a colour photo or slide of a Loco coal wagon to sort this debate out once and for all.  But never say never............


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#3 Nick Holliday

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:07

Coal dust with some rainwater on top will form an acidic solution which would play havoc with the insides of tenders/ bunkers.  I know the GWR treated Welsh steam coal with  kid gloves (small wooden trucks in coaling stations and not dropped from great heights as per LNER and LMS coaling towers) - but even hopper loading of coal at the pit would have had an abrasive reaction of coal against the insides of the wagons.
 
The jury is still out regarding colour.  Russell states black but many others believe that the black is actually a very dark grey mis-viewed.
 
Given the scarcity of colour film in the 1940s, I am sure nobody ever took a colour photo or slide of a Loco coal wagon to sort this debate out once and for all.  But never say never............

As you said, perhaps tongue in cheek, never say never. Page 114 of the Big Four in Colour book is the answer. I leave it to experts to decide whether they are dark grey or black, but you even get two different lettering styles.

#4 M.I.B

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:28

The only standard thing on the GW was variations............rakes of differing carriages, so many permutations of Castle and Hall and Saint and Star, Even the relatively small 1000 County class and 47XX class had variations in GW days. 



#5 george stein

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 16:56

Thanks.  Lots of rust. Given the "evidence," I think I'll go with Humbrol "Panzer grey" as it's quite dark and has a slight "blueish" tone of painted iron or steel.


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#6 Darwinian

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 18:03

I've always painted my GWR loco coal wagons black because Russel was quite clear on this. However once they have been weathered there is barely any difference to a weathered GWR grey (Phoenix precision) wagon!

 

Black or grey.JPG

 

 

Lighting here is daylight LEDs but even in sunlight it's hard to see any difference. 


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#7 M.I.B

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:13

Lovely work there.  Mine too are black for the same reason.


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#8 Castle

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 17:55

Lovely work there.  Mine too are black for the same reason.


Hi All,

That’s the idea - cover it with loads of weathering so nobody can tell if it’s black or grey! Don’t tell anyone, but it’s what I did for Little Didcot’s coal wagon.

Shhhhhhhhh...

All the best,

Castle
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#9 Castle

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 17:58

PS: I really am quite lazy - matt black out of a Halfords rattle can is about 98% less set up that GWR wagon grey out of an air brush...
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#10 Darwinian

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 20:42

PS: I really am quite lazy - matt black out of a Halfords rattle can is about 98% less set up that GWR wagon grey out of an air brush...


Dang it why hasn’ t it occurred to me to do that for grey wagons too.


Edited by Darwinian, 12 January 2018 - 20:48 .


#11 Castle

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 21:01

Hi Darwinian,

It takes a lot of effort to be this lazy...

All the best,

Castle
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#12 bécasse

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 22:21

I seem to recollect being told almost 60 years ago (when there were people around who remembered these things) that the Loco Coal wagons were black because, being steel and carrying Welsh coal, the paint used had a bituminous content to mitigate against acidic corrosion, an explanation which seemed to fit well with what I was learning in Chemistry lessons at the time.



#13 M.I.B

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:27

Dang it why hasn’ t it occurred to me to do that for grey wagons too.

 

There is a Humbrol rattle can for Panzer Grau/Wagon Grey.   But be careful when using some products on top of it (other varnishes and matting agents etc), because some spray can paints disagree badly with some aerosol varnishes.

 

This bad reaction can however be carefully used to show un-cared for paint - a bit like clever guitarists using amp feedback deliberately to add to the tune (Brian Setzer does this beautifully) .   My lake clerestory has to look exceptionally tired and unloved, so I deliberately used a thin coat of the wrong varnish to crackle the paint a little and then added Testors Dullcote on top to seal it all off. 


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#14 Castle

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:46

There is a Humbrol rattle can for Panzer Grau/Wagon Grey.   But be careful when using some products on top of it (other varnishes and matting agents etc), because some spray can paints disagree badly with some aerosol varnishes.
 
This bad reaction can however be carefully used to show un-cared for paint - a bit like clever guitarists using amp feedback deliberately to add to the tune (Brian Setzer does this beautifully) .   My lake clerestory has to look exceptionally tired and unloved, so I deliberately used a thin coat of the wrong varnish to crackle the paint a little and then added Testors Dullcote on top to seal it all off.


Hi All,

Absolutely MIB! Phoenix paints and the newer cans of Humbrol acrylic varnishes can do similar and looks good on an old wagon / coach. For stuff that I paint that needs a great finish, I use the recommended Phoenix varnishes - gloss to get the transfers to sit down and behave and then the matt on top. After the initial reaction, it settles down and sticks just as well as always! There is no problem on pre painted RTR stuff and if you go over Halfords or any other acrylics.

All the best,

Castle
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#15 ejstubbs

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:10

Page 114 of the Big Four in Colour book is the answer. I leave it to experts to decide whether they are dark grey or black, but you even get two different lettering styles.

 

As has been noted on other threads (in particular, the one on the Hornby Duchess) the dyes in old colour film stock can degrade, or just change over time, so old photos aren't completely reliable as a guide to colour shades, even for something as apparently straightforward as black vs dark grey.

 

The caption to the photo you reference describes the wagons as: "two Locomotive Department coal hoppers in overall grey livery".  Whether that's based on the author's knowledge of the colour they were supposed to be, or just a judgement from the photo itself, is not stated. The Hall shunting the wagons also looks "overall grey" in the photo which, although the loco is obviously filthy, might suggest that the colour rendition in the photo can't be completely relied upon.  (The wagons look more or less pristine in comparison to the loco, though, going by the clarity of the lettering.)


Edited by ejstubbs, 13 January 2018 - 11:10 .


#16 Fat Controller

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:22

I seem to recollect being told almost 60 years ago (when there were people around who remembered these things) that the Loco Coal wagons were black because, being steel and carrying Welsh coal, the paint used had a bituminous content to mitigate against acidic corrosion, an explanation which seemed to fit well with what I was learning in Chemistry lessons at the time.

'Black Bituminous' paint was still around a few years ago- it was one of the finishes used on things like bridge girders, lorry chassis and so on. If you were lucky, it dried fairly quickly, but I used to find that, at this time of year, it used to take a week to 'go off' properly.



#17 Castle

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:31

'Black Bituminous' paint was still around a few years ago- it was one of the finishes used on things like bridge girders, lorry chassis and so on. If you were lucky, it dried fairly quickly, but I used to find that, at this time of year, it used to take a week to 'go off' properly.


Hi All,

Black Bituminous paint is still around - the inside of water tanks on the locos at 81E are recipients of said finish!

All the best,

Castle

#18 br2975

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 08:11

I was once informed that GWR 'non revenue' wagon stock was painted black.

.

Perhaps an expert, or more knowledgeable member can enlighten us ?

.

Brian R



#19 M.I.B

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:24

But things like the scales calibration vans were grey, but CORDONS were black.

 

Shunting trucks were grey,   but Departmental 6 wheel water tanks were black.................

 

The big cranes were black, but the smaller ones were grey, as were the Open C's which accompanied big black cranes.........

 

That is what makes GW modelling and finishing so interesting.


Edited by M.I.B, 17 January 2018 - 08:39 .

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#20 57xx

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 21:18

As has been noted on other threads (in particular, the one on the Hornby Duchess) the dyes in old colour film stock can degrade, or just change over time, so old photos aren't completely reliable as a guide to colour shades, even for something as apparently straightforward as black vs dark grey.

 

The caption to the photo you reference describes the wagons as: "two Locomotive Department coal hoppers in overall grey livery".  Whether that's based on the author's knowledge of the colour they were supposed to be, or just a judgement from the photo itself, is not stated. The Hall shunting the wagons also looks "overall grey" in the photo which, although the loco is obviously filthy, might suggest that the colour rendition in the photo can't be completely relied upon.  (The wagons look more or less pristine in comparison to the loco, though, going by the clarity of the lettering.)

 

However if you compare the black of the Hall's smokebox with the grey of the wagons, there is a clear difference.



#21 bécasse

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:39

However if you compare the black of the Hall's smokebox with the grey of the wagons, there is a clear difference.

 

Different types of paint. If you look at a photo of a recently outshopped loco in overall unlined BR black, the smokebox looks a different colour to the rest of the loco.


Edited by bécasse, 17 January 2018 - 12:20 .

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#22 Siberian Snooper

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 13:08

Heat affects the paint and smokeboxes are not lagged and thus susceptible to the effects of heat.
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#23 57xx

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 18:02

Heat affects the paint and smokeboxes are not lagged and thus susceptible to the effects of heat.

 

Yup, I know that.

 

Different types of paint. 

 

Yup, one black, one grey.

 

Doesn't matter how you spin it, the colour of the paint on the wagons is a lighter colour than the paint on the smokebox (which we know started off black) and the black of the footplate.