Less steam on the mainline in 2018?

[adb968008]

Which sums exactly why standing

at windows is no longer allowed.

Yet again the few spoiling things

for the many.

 

I can stand at the windows in any country.

I HAVE to stand at the windows on MOST trains in this country as there's no seats.

You can stand at the window of any HST 125 mph service.

 

However as recording devices are not allowed at & you can't stand by a window and need sir's permission to use the potty, I've not done mainline steam in the UK for a few years now.

There's a difference between protecting the lunatic fringe from themselves, and keeping sensible enthusiasts in check. Its worth pointing out only one time since 1971 has a person lost his life at a carriage window on a steam special, that being c1992 on a Scotsman Railtour in a tunnel in North Wales, and even then the circumstances were unclear as to the sequence of events of it happened in a tunnel.

 

I do however have a responsible collection of recordings / videos from "dangerous" days to keep me happy.

 

Unlike the UK, European operations aren't maximum loaded to maximum weight to squeeze revenue down to the last carriage, then add a diesel at the back to disguise adding a few more, and push the whole train around at 30mph from siding to siding, most operations in Trier 2010 were 4-5 coaches, station to station, meaning some sprightly running as the locomotives were intended...

 

This year I'll be off to Trier in Germany for more sprightly 6am departures like this...

 

Later in the journey we were stopped for overspeed, the return actually had a SPAD, by loco + a  coach length, though after a 5 minute discussion we went on our way. Some countries still operate by common sense as well as safety. Following the SPAD the trains operators didn't meat out punishment on it's passengers and force them to close windows and sit down, I'm still alive to tell the tale, even if the defenders of the realm in this country would prefer to hunt me down and silence me for speaking such heresy and suggesting a utopia still exists overseas.

 

For once, we can't blame this one on Europe. if UK mainline steam continues on it's path, I think it'll end up like South Africa, the last mile on the front of a luxury train and the odd special here and there.

 

http://www.dampfspektakel.info

5000 miles of mainline steam, 9 locomotives, 4 days, 190 Euro. (And the food over there is pretty good too).

 

Whilst this is a major event, there is a regular calendar of Mainline steam in Germany, pretty much every weekend there's something somewhere.. (Lok Report via Google translate is a good source).

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.lok-report.de/&prev=search (Click on "Events" on the blue header at the top).  Then of course there is Poland and Wolsztyn, forget closing the windows, some trains there they forget to close the doors too.. and of course what would our operators make of German Thunderboxes ? (4 wheeled coaches, where the exit doors are actually steps on a veranda outside, with a metal open air chain link between each coach).

(Taken from a Thunderbox as we slipped almost to a stand.. yes it happens over seas, and those coaches are really loud)

 

For those who like to see, hear, smell and feel mainline steam its still possible overseas, than to put up with little more than the occasional wisp of steam passing the seated sealed window and a shove from the diesel behind as you sit in your chair looking at a siding full of freight wagons being told how lucky you are and how great it is, to me though its not all bad news in the UK,  mainline steam is really good for the line side photographer... shorter trains, no one at the windows, and despite belief tend to be more reliable and on time than of old.

Edited January 29, 2018 by adb968008

[Mallard60022]

How come then that when we have steam through 36E that there are often the Biggles Brigade at some of the windows, not leaning or waving like complet tw@ts either?

Phil

[Mallard60022]

I can stand at the windows in any country.

I HAVE to stand at the windows on MOST trains in this country as there's no seats.

You can stand at the window of any HST 125 mph service.

 

However as recording devices are not allowed at & you can't stand by a window and need sir's permission to use the potty, I've not done mainline steam in the UK for a few years now.

There's a difference between protecting the lunatic fringe from themselves, and keeping sensible enthusiasts in check. Its worth pointing out only one time since 1971 has a person lost his life at a carriage window on a steam special, that being c1992 on a Scotsman Railtour in a tunnel in North Wales, and even then the circumstances were unclear as to the sequence of events of it happened in a tunnel.

 

I do however have a responsible collection of recordings / videos from "dangerous" days to keep me happy.

 

Unlike the UK, European operations aren't maximum loaded to maximum weight to squeeze revenue down to the last carriage, then add a diesel at the back to disguise adding a few more, and push the whole train around at 30mph from siding to siding, most operations in Trier 2010 were 4-5 coaches, station to station, meaning some sprightly running as the locomotives were intended...

 

This year I'll be off to Trier in Germany for more sprightly 6am departures like this...

 

Later in the journey we were stopped for overspeed, the return actually had a SPAD, by loco + a  coach length, though after a 5 minute discussion we went on our way. Some countries still operate by common sense as well as safety. Following the SPAD the trains operators didn't meat out punishment on it's passengers and force them to close windows and sit down, I'm still alive to tell the tale, even if the defenders of the realm in this country would prefer to hunt me down and silence me for speaking such heresy and suggesting a utopia still exists overseas.

 

For once, we can't blame this one on Europe. if UK mainline steam continues on it's path, I think it'll end up like South Africa, the last mile on the front of a luxury train and the odd special here and there.

 

http://www.dampfspektakel.info

5000 miles of mainline steam, 9 locomotives, 4 days, 190 Euro. (And the food over there is pretty good too).

 

Whilst this is a major event, there is a regular calendar of Mainline steam in Germany, pretty much every weekend there's something somewhere.. (Lok Report via Google translate is a good source).

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.lok-report.de/&prev=search (Click on "Events" on the blue header at the top).  Then of course there is Poland and Wolsztyn, forget closing the windows, some trains there they forget to close the doors too.. and of course what would our operators make of German Thunderboxes ? (4 wheeled coaches, where the exit doors are actually steps on a veranda outside, with a metal open air chain link between each coach).

(Taken from a Thunderbox as we slipped almost to a stand.. yes it happens over seas, and those coaches are really loud)

 

For those who like to see, hear, smell and feel mainline steam its still possible overseas, than to put up with little more than the occasional wisp of steam passing the seated sealed window and a shove from the diesel behind as you sit in your chair looking at a siding full of freight wagons being told how lucky you are and how great it is, to me though its not all bad news in the UK,  mainline steam is really good for the line side photographer... shorter trains, no one at the windows, and despite belief tend to be more reliable and on time than of old.

I do appeciate what you are saying in many ways, however I will point out again that with the steam hauled specials I have travelled on and often see up here, there are often no diesels and if there are they are not pushing them all around the system. Also I have travelled at continuous high speeds for long distances on many of the journeys I have enjoyed, especially with Tornado.

Travel abroad is great of course and Wolstzyn was a wonderful experience for me when it was in full flow about 15 years ago, but many of us can't do that very often however much we might like to.

Phil 

[jjb1970]

The problem with common sense is that as it invariably pointed out, it isn't very common.

 

The litmus test for any H&S matter is this, if somebody gets decapitated could you honestly claim that it wasn't reasonably foreseeable that people sticking their heads out of train windows couldn't end up in a rather gruesome incident? That may be dismissed as backside covering and namby pambyism, but holding people to account and assigning responsibility for safety has been one of the most powerful engines behind the stellar improvement in industrial health and safety I've witnessed over my working life.

 

People might say it is their life and if they want to risk it hanging out of windows then it's their choice. In some things I'm sympathetic to that but in the case of trains it is rather distressing to members of staff, other passengers etc to witness somebody being decapitated.

[locoholic]

The problem with common sense is that as it invariably pointed out, it isn't very common.

 

The litmus test for any H&S matter is this, if somebody gets decapitated could you honestly claim that it wasn't reasonably foreseeable that people sticking their heads out of train windows couldn't end up in a rather gruesome incident? That may be dismissed as backside covering and namby pambyism, but holding people to account and assigning responsibility for safety has been one of the most powerful engines behind the stellar improvement in industrial health and safety I've witnessed over my working life.

 

People might say it is their life and if they want to risk it hanging out of windows then it's their choice. In some things I'm sympathetic to that but in the case of trains it is rather distressing to members of staff, other passengers etc to witness somebody being decapitated.

The flaw in your argument is that the same logic is not applied to other forms of transport. If it were, there would be speed limiters on cars, lorries and motorbikes, no radios and other distractions would be allowed, etc etc. The lack of common sense shown on the roads is quite staggering!

[locoholic]

Moving back on subject, am I right in thinking there are no 50th Anniversary of the End of BR steam specials scheduled? Seems a bit odd - normally any anniversary is an excuse for a steam special.

[jjb1970]

The flaw in your argument is that the same logic is not applied to other forms of transport. If it were, there would be speed limiters on cars, lorries and motorbikes, no radios and other distractions would be allowed, etc etc. The lack of common sense shown on the roads is quite staggering!

 

The railways are responsible for railway safety, safety on the roads is a completely different question. And there has been massive investment in improving road safety, from massively improved crashworthiness of cars, active safety technology, development of autonomous cars etc. However it is true that road safety is not in the same class as rail safety. The problem with using that as an argument that it is in some way unfair to expect trains to be safe is that if you make higher standards of safety one of the principal arguments in favour of something then it is entirely reasonable for people to expect that it is indeed safer than the alternative.

[cal.n]

Moving back on subject, am I right in thinking there are no 50th Anniversary of the End of BR steam specials scheduled? Seems a bit odd - normally any anniversary is an excuse for a steam special.

 

Not specifically named for the day, but on the 11th August (Fifteen Guinea Special day) there are 3 seperate steam charters on the S + C that day. I think thats a day I'll book off work.

 

None are planned to contain any Fifteen Guinea locos as the Riley pair are on Jacobite duties and 70013 is mid overhaul.

 

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs18.htm#aug

[caradoc]

I can stand at the windows in any country.

I HAVE to stand at the windows on MOST trains in this country as there's no seats.

You can stand at the window of any HST 125 mph service.

 

However as recording devices are not allowed at & you can't stand by a window and need sir's permission to use the potty, I've not done mainline steam in the UK for a few years now.

There's a difference between protecting the lunatic fringe from themselves, and keeping sensible enthusiasts in check. Its worth pointing out only one time since 1971 has a person lost his life at a carriage window on a steam special, that being c1992 on a Scotsman Railtour in a tunnel in North Wales, and even then the circumstances were unclear as to the sequence of events of it happened in a tunnel.

 

I do however have a responsible collection of recordings / videos from "dangerous" days to keep me happy.

 

Unlike the UK, European operations aren't maximum loaded to maximum weight to squeeze revenue down to the last carriage, then add a diesel at the back to disguise adding a few more, and push the whole train around at 30mph from siding to siding, most operations in Trier 2010 were 4-5 coaches, station to station, meaning some sprightly running as the locomotives were intended...

 

This year I'll be off to Trier in Germany for more sprightly 6am departures like this...

 

Later in the journey we were stopped for overspeed, the return actually had a SPAD, by loco + a  coach length, though after a 5 minute discussion we went on our way. Some countries still operate by common sense as well as safety. Following the SPAD the trains operators didn't meat out punishment on it's passengers and force them to close windows and sit down, I'm still alive to tell the tale, even if the defenders of the realm in this country would prefer to hunt me down and silence me for speaking such heresy and suggesting a utopia still exists overseas.

 

For once, we can't blame this one on Europe. if UK mainline steam continues on it's path, I think it'll end up like South Africa, the last mile on the front of a luxury train and the odd special here and there.

 

http://www.dampfspektakel.info

5000 miles of mainline steam, 9 locomotives, 4 days, 190 Euro. (And the food over there is pretty good too).

 

Whilst this is a major event, there is a regular calendar of Mainline steam in Germany, pretty much every weekend there's something somewhere.. (Lok Report via Google translate is a good source).

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.lok-report.de/&prev=search (Click on "Events" on the blue header at the top).  Then of course there is Poland and Wolsztyn, forget closing the windows, some trains there they forget to close the doors too.. and of course what would our operators make of German Thunderboxes ? (4 wheeled coaches, where the exit doors are actually steps on a veranda outside, with a metal open air chain link between each coach).

(Taken from a Thunderbox as we slipped almost to a stand.. yes it happens over seas, and those coaches are really loud)

 

For those who like to see, hear, smell and feel mainline steam its still possible overseas, than to put up with little more than the occasional wisp of steam passing the seated sealed window and a shove from the diesel behind as you sit in your chair looking at a siding full of freight wagons being told how lucky you are and how great it is, to me though its not all bad news in the UK,  mainline steam is really good for the line side photographer... shorter trains, no one at the windows, and despite belief tend to be more reliable and on time than of old.

 

Regarding the SPAD you experienced and operating by 'common sense as well as safety'; This (Germany) is the same country where 11 people were killed in February 2016 in a head-on collision on a single line. On balance, I think I prefer the British approach to rail safety.

[adb968008]

Regarding the SPAD you experienced and operating by 'common sense as well as safety'; This (Germany) is the same country where 11 people were killed in February 2016 in a head-on collision on a single line. On balance, I think I prefer the British approach to rail safety.

UK incidents since 2000: 28, since 2015 = 7

DB Incidents since 2000: 14, since 2015 = 1

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_rail_accidents

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom

Edited January 29, 2018 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

What are the comparative figures for fatalities and injuries?

[Mallard60022]

Apologies but....Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........

This has descended into a whole different world of discussion on people and how they behave and the consequenses. Yes I know I can just go away but maybe a few more leaps back to where has the steam gone (for example) from the ECML and why operationally, would be more useful for us observers and possible travellers.

Thank you,

Phil

Edited January 30, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Boris]

I'm afraid leaning out of windows at speed on trains isn't namby pamby health and safety gone mad, people really have lost arms and heads by hanging out the window and being bell ends.

 

The thing is the rail network in many places is running at capacity, or close to capacity and one off lower speed steam tours are a bit of a nightmare to fit in.  I've dealt with planning a few times and the distinct impression I get is that regular "service" type steam runs, like the Shakespeares or the Scarborough Spas (or whatever replaced them) are much easier to fit in.

[Mallard60022]

I've just been looking again and many tours, from London to the north in particular, are starting with steam from York. Sensible in many ways but disappointing for many of us.

Hey ho.

Phil

[caradoc]

UK incidents since 2000: 28, since 2015 = 7

DB Incidents since 2000: 14, since 2015 = 1

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_rail_accidents

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom3E09DB05-960B-4B82-A2B8-68B611329E3A.jpeg

 

Fatalities caused by collisions and derailments in the last ten years:

 

UK 0

Germany 22 (3 separate incidents)

 

Note also that the German figures only include incidents involving injury or death, whereas the UK figures also include minor incidents where no injury resulted.

[cal.n]

In say 10 years, will there be much opportunity to stick your head out a window? GWR and VTEC HSTs will be gone, any left will be modified with sliding power doors with no opening windows. Caledonian Sleeper mk2s and mk3s are being replaced with new (power doored) stock.

A1SLT will have a rake of mk3s with power doors. According to a thread on another forum, West Coast are looking to install that window bars that DRS fitted to Cumbrian Coast mk2s.

 

I fear it may take an accident to make these changes appear in law but if WCRC and others (SPRS, Riviera) add window bars, it may just stop.

[Paul.Uni]

From PMR tours:

Unfortunately we are not yet able to confirm any ‘PMR Tours’ trips with the Duchess for 2018. Whilst we had originally intended to run several of our own trips, this has become increasingly difficult due to various obstacles including:

• A growing shortage of main line steam drivers available to be provided by West Coast Railways, our Train Operating Company. WCR is understandably prioritising the operation of its own trips rather than third party organisations such as ‘PMR Tours’.
• Less availability of coaching stock for hire from WCR due to heavy demand from tour operators who operate on a regular basis and so get first priority.
• Increased costs involved in operating a main line trip, e.g. hire of diesel locomotives and coaching stock.
• The disruption to Derby railway station from late July to mid-October while it is re-modelled.

Added to this is the unforeseen work now required on the Duchess which means that she will be out of action for the first half of 2018. We will update you as and when we have more information.

[Georgeconna]

Yes as the door could fall open and you fall out of the train. These days what I understand you have to remain seated unless you are just going to the toilet. 

 

Blimey, could not be arsed going on one of these long haul trips again then, The last one I went on was a Duchess out of Crewe and I had me head out the window for most of the trip,Most enjoyable

 

As the chap said above I will settle for watching them go by should I be lucky enough to see one on my visits to England.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Georgeconna

[Reorte]

In say 10 years, will there be much opportunity to stick your head out a window? GWR and VTEC HSTs will be gone, any left will be modified with sliding power doors with no opening windows. Caledonian Sleeper mk2s and mk3s are being replaced with new (power doored) stock.

A1SLT will have a rake of mk3s with power doors. According to a thread on another forum, West Coast are looking to install that window bars that DRS fitted to Cumbrian Coast mk2s.

 

I fear it may take an accident to make these changes appear in law but if WCRC and others (SPRS, Riviera) add window bars, it may just stop.

Just on the Cumbrian Coast example I believe bars have been fitted to windows on stock used there for years (we're talking well before BR days AFAIK) due to limited clearances, so shouldn't be taken as indicative of any sorts of changes one way or the other.

[Boris]

I've just been looking again and many tours, from London to the north in particular, are starting with steam from York. Sensible in many ways but disappointing for many of us.

Hey ho.

Phil

Easy access to coal/water/ pit at York is the usual reason.

[luckymucklebackit]

Moving back on subject, am I right in thinking there are no 50th Anniversary of the End of BR steam specials scheduled? Seems a bit odd - normally any anniversary is an excuse for a steam special.

 

Just lets hope that the authorities don't celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the End of BR steam with a 50th Anniversary re-establishment of the steam ban, willing to bet that there are some who would gladly impose it.

 

JIm

[cal.n]

Just lets hope that the authorities don't celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the End of BR steam with a 50th Anniversary re-establishment of the steam ban, willing to bet that there are some who would gladly impose it.

 

JIm

And to answer the original question, we are very lucky to have 3 different tours on the 11th August and 8 different tours that week. With mainline steam today featuring a huge selection of locos with all of the ‘big 4’ well represented with numerous classes of each company. With 3 different TOCs running Mainline steam (and a 4th on the horizon), DBC running 90mph tours with 60163 and 60019, I am really excited for the future of mainline steam in the UK.

 

We are not really loosing locos either, as 46115 disappears, 35018 surfaces. When 60009 goes, 45596 will enter service. With 2007, 60532 and 60007 not in the too distant future, all looks good

 

Edit: loco number

Edited January 31, 2018 by cal.n

[Mallard60022]

And to answer the original question, we are very lucky to have 3 different tours on the 11th August and 8 different tours that week. With mainline steam today featuring a huge selection of locos with all of the ‘big 4’ well represented with numerous classes of each company. With 3 different TOCs running Mainline steam (and a 4th on the horizon), DBC running 90mph tours with 60163 and 60019, I am really excited for the future of mainline steam in the UK.

 

We are not really loosing locos either, as 46115 disappears, 35018 surfaces. When 60009 goes, 45596 will enter service. With 2007, 60532 and 60007 not in the too distant future, all looks good

 

Edit: loco number

What a great post to read first thing on a grey and rainy morning. Lovely. Really made my day Cal;n

Phil

[PhilH]

And to answer the original question, we are very lucky to have 3 different tours on the 11th August and 8 different tours that week. With mainline steam today featuring a huge selection of locos with all of the ‘big 4’ well represented with numerous classes of each company. With 3 different TOCs running Mainline steam (and a 4th on the horizon), DBC running 90mph tours with 60163 and 60019, I am really excited for the future of mainline steam in the UK.

We are not really loosing locos either, as 46115 disappears, 35018 surfaces. When 60009 goes, 45596 will enter service. With 2007, 60532 and 60007 not in the too distant future, all looks good

Edit: loco number

70000 will be in the mix as well, before 60532. Edited January 31, 2018 by PhilH

[Mallard60022]

70000 will be in the mix as well, before 60532.

Where has Brit been overhauled Phil? Also, have you had the chance to drive it?

Phil