Less steam on the mainline in 2018?

[Reorte]

It's stretching it a bit (sorry to some folks!) to talk about a younger generation being born after steam - it ended 50 years ago in regular service after all. I was born after that, and it certainly doesn't stop me being interested in it.

[locoholic]

Hi adb968008,

It is a shame that you didn’t come to talk to to me and my restoration team about this before making an assumption or publicly criticising our actions or assuming we aren’t getting anywhere. Sadly you didn’t - I don’t hide the fact on RMWEB that No. 4079 is my project... Just because we don’t publicise every thing we do doesn’t mean we don’t do it. The engine is coming on just fine and in a fashion concordant with the income and manpower available.

It’s done when it’s done. If you would be kind enough to look at ANY of the interviews I have given as project manager I have NEVER given an end date to the project. There is one in Steam Railway this month that says exactly this. This is to prevent the restoration of an internationally historically important Locomotive being rushed in the limited time that my team and I can give to her. It is really important to us and our desire to do right by the old girl is our number one consideration. I am aware that this might be frustrating for her fans but would anybody truly want it the other way?

I’m sorry to call you out on this but comments like this one above just aren’t helpful or motivating to people like myself and my team that have freely dedicated great amounts of our time, missing out on lots of other stuff at home and with family, scrabbling around in the filth, the cold, the heat, the dust, the wet, the soot, and any number of other far less than desirable conditions I could name that puts all but the most ardent supporters off. This is of course fine - it’s not for everyone and some simply can’t do it for any number of reasons, but to give grief to the guys that do and can for free is a bit much. I do my best with the resources I have.

If you want to come and look at our progress on the locomotive then you are most welcome to come along and inspect her this Saturday or any other one that is a fortnight on from that point when we are working on the locomotive. That way I can personally show you round and get you familiar with where we are. PM me if you want to come and I will organise it and get the kettle on so we can have a cup of tea! If you are an experienced steam guy or even as a novice, then please come and give us a hand - she might get there quicker! If not, if you have any spare cash to assist the charity I volunteer for then it would be most welcome too. If not, then that’s fine too.

I am immensely proud of and thankful for my team and their continuing loyalty to me and the project and the amazing amount of progress we have made.

All the best

Castle

PS: The above is my opinions and comments and not those of the GWS.

Whilst I take my hat off to anyone restoring a steam loco, I can't help thinking that you've taken four long paragraphs to say more or less the same as adb968008's original summary - i.e. 4079 will be ready when it's ready, but not any time soon. If it were otherwise, why have you been so careful to exclude any kind of factual information about the progress so far, and what remains to be done?

[Dava]

An interesting exchange..does 'adb968008' make any practical or financial contribution to mainline steam, as a donor, traveller or volunteer? Or just as an observer?

 

The fixed [7 yearly boiler overhaul] , compliance and running costs of mainline steam operation are very high and only increasing. That is why there are fewer locos in ticket. The objection to 'for profit' operators masks the reality that most of the profits of mainline operation of integrated operators such as WestCoast and I future Vintage Trains and the Birley operation will have to be reinvested in the loco and stock overhaul costs as above.

 

The days of the volunteer managed mainline steam loco operation could be numbered. Look at Prncess Elizabeth for example. Good luck to Didcot, the 4079 group and a number of others.

 

Dava

[Dava]

Restoring and keeping 80-100 year old locos on the main line is increasingly complex, expensive, challenging and frustrating. One can understand the burden on voluntary stewards of these locos, and I'm reticent about criticising them even when it may feel justified. It helps explain the reaction re 4079. Imagine how the custodians of 6201 and 6023 have felt in recent months when they'd expected their prides to be out on the main line.

 

My own response is to do everything I can to support the completion of an alternative main line; the GCR reunification. That's where we'll see more of these locos running in future years.

 

'adb968008' appears to have deleted all his posts which rather removes the argument of this thread. One wonders why?

 

Dava

Edited February 21, 2018 by Dava

[locoholic]

Restoring and keeping 80-100 year old locos on the main line is increasingly complex, expensive, challenging and frustrating. One can understand the burden on voluntary stewards of these locos, and I'm reticent about criticising them even when it may feel justified. It helps explain the reaction re 4079. Imagine how the custodians of 6201 and 6023 have felt in recent months when they'd expected their prides to be out on the main line.

My own response is to do everything I can to support the completion of an alternative main line; the GCR reunification. That's where we'll see more of these locos running in future years.

'adb968008' appears to have deleted all his posts which rather removes the argument of this thread. One wonders why?

Dava

I think the GCR is the way forward - the 21st century main line railway is becoming less and less able to cope with anything non-standard.

[adb968008]

'adb968008' appears to have deleted all his posts which rather removes the argument of this thread. One wonders why?

Dava

It was becoming personal, additionally it was steering towards 1 loco.

Neither of us had issue with each other.

 

As this isn’t meant to be an attack on any one loco, nor does it benefit the loco or the thread we *both* agreed to remove our posts, and asked another quoter to do the same, but they have chosen not to.

 

This way it continues back to the topic, and I would ask not to use my posts to attack any specific loco or group.

 

It was a misunderstanding resolved in a civilised way.. we communicated with each other, rather than hitting the keyboards.

 

—————————————————————

(That’s a line drawn).

 

Back On the topic in question, the only thing I can add, was yesterday I said my good byes to Oliver Cromwell in Stratford and Chelmsford (which still has an original GE signalbox elevated above the platforms, and lesser spotted is a 1949 electrification gantry (probably one of the oldest left in the country still in use)...

 

With 70013’s impending retirement, this reduces the pool of operational mainline class 7/8’s to 6 locos: 34053/35018/28/ 60009/60103/60163 .... +48151 (7)

is this the lowest number of class 7/8’s since the 1970’s ? (9 locos: 5051/6000/6201/46229/850/35028/4472/4498/60009 were all operational in 1979/80 +92220 (10)) -did 34092 run in 1980 also ?

 

Similarly there only looks to be possibility of 2 maybe 3 returning in the short term too, so I don’t see the status quo changing that much before 2020.

 

In class 6’s.. 45690/9/6100. (In 1979/80 we had 4771/5690/61306 too)

 

I excluded 5043/7029 as they dont really venture into any pool beyond Tyseleys operations, and until TYS becomes TOC they won’t be going anywhere... let’s not speculate.. they will be ready when they are ready.

 

Maybe there’s a chance of some irregular locos getting more variety in 2018.. it would be nice to see more of 61264/62005 and 76084... (though the days of 673/1000/1054/spinner/43106/3440 are behind us).

 

 

One interesting though, prior to Wootton Bassett. We had 2 TOCs going nationwide.

Post WB it’s emerging we will have 4 maybe 5 TOCs. but for the most part centred around their home base only, ..WCRC shrinking back to Carnforth/WHR with a limited South East operation, DB covering London/South West, TYS In Brum and LSL at Crewe, wasnt there DCR planning steam too or did that all come to nothing ?..

If this ends up being the case, then overall we’ve got a fragmented market (with each operator using their own dedicated self contained fleet) rather than a competitive or even the near monopolistic market we used to have... we used to complain before, but i’m not sure if it’s better now.

Edited February 23, 2018 by adb968008

[Zomboid]

Does 35028 do anything other than VSOE? I've seen it (by accident) on that a couple of times, but never doing anything else.

[adb968008]

Does 35028 do anything other than VSOE? I've seen it (by accident) on that a couple of times, but never doing anything else.

It had the VSOE contract (which was quite considerable) hence it didn’t do much else.

I understand now it’s still managing the contract (don’t know the ins/outs of it) but the outcome is it’s now more open to other locomotives so 35028 is increasingly seen on other work starting last year.

 

It went on a tour to Southampton the other week, it’s going to the WSR (I think it’s only ever 2nd preserved railway visit) on May 26th.

It’s also got 3 or 4 Torbays from Bristol in June and Yeovil in December.

 

It might only be 6/7 non pullman trips..but it’s 6 more than it used to be.

 

60163 is a regular substitute on the Pullman.

Edited February 23, 2018 by adb968008

[PhilH]

It was becoming personal, additionally it was steering towards 1 loco.

Neither of us had issue with each other.

As this isn’t meant to be an attack on any one loco, nor does it benefit the loco or the thread we *both* agreed to remove our posts, and asked another quoter to do the same, but they have chosen not to.

This way it continues back to the topic, and I would ask not to use my posts to attack any specific loco or group.

It was a misunderstanding resolved in a civilised way.. we communicated with each other, rather than hitting the keyboards.

—————————————————————

(That’s a line drawn).

Back On the topic in question, the only thing I can add, was yesterday I said my good byes to Oliver Cromwell in Stratford and Chelmsford (which still has an original GE signalbox elevated above the platforms, and lesser spotted is a 1949 electrification gantry (probably one of the oldest left in the country still in use)...

With 70013’s impending retirement, this reduces the pool of operational mainline class 7/8’s to 6 locos: 34053/35018/28/ 60009/60103/60163 .... +48151 (7)

is this the lowest number of class 7/8’s since the 1970’s ? (9 locos: 5051/6000/6201/46229/850/35028/4472/4498/60009 were all operational in 1979/80 +92220 (10)) -did 34092 run in 1980 also ?

Similarly there only looks to be possibility of 2 maybe 3 returning in the short term too, so I don’t see the status quo changing that much before 2020.

In class 6’s.. 45690/9/6100. (In 1979/80 we had 4771/5690/61306 too)

I excluded 5043/7029 as they dont really venture into any pool beyond Tyseleys operations, and until TYS becomes TOC they won’t be going anywhere... let’s not speculate.. they will be ready when they are ready.

Maybe there’s a chance of some irregular locos getting more variety in 2018.. it would be nice to see more of 61264/62005 and 76084... (though the days of 673/1000/1054/spinner/43106/3440 are behind us).

One interesting though, prior to Wootton Bassett. We had 2 TOCs going nationwide.

Post WB it’s emerging we will have 4 maybe 5 TOCs. but for the most part centred around their home base only, ..WCRC shrinking back to Carnforth/WHR with a limited South East operation, DB covering London/South West, TYS In Brum and LSL at Crewe, wasnt there DCR planning steam too or did that all come to nothing ?..

If this ends up being the case, then overall we’ve got a fragmented market (with each operator using their own dedicated self contained fleet) rather than a competitive or even the near monopolistic market we used to have... we used to complain before, but i’m not sure if it’s better now.

DB just supply crews, and are not limited to London/South East.

[rab]

One interesting though, prior to Wootton Bassett. We had 2 TOCs going nationwide.

Post WB it’s emerging we will have 4 maybe 5 TOCs. but for the most part centred around their home base only, ..WCRC shrinking back to Carnforth/WHR with a limited South East operation, DB covering London/South West, TYS In Brum and LSL at Crewe, wasnt there DCR planning steam too or did that all come to nothing ?..

If this ends up being the case, then overall we’ve got a fragmented market (with each operator using their own dedicated self contained fleet) rather than a competitive or even the near monopolistic market we used to have... we used to complain before, but i’m not sure if it’s better now.

It's beginning to sound like we're getting back

to pre-1948 with the not so big 4 (or 5).

[PhilH]

35018 has failed its load test due partly to a steam leak around the right hand cylinder which must have obstructed the drivers forward view. This could be a quick or a long fix.  

 

 

 

 

 

Not one of your Great Way Round things...driving position's on the left on these....

Edited February 27, 2018 by PhilH

[Metr0Land]

Tks. Where was the 2nd sequence taken?

[Metr0Land]

For those that don't know (but may have guessed) the 01March trip to Cardiff is cancelled - poss postponed to June.

[Dava]

Announced in 'Steam Railway' that agreement reached with the NRM for 70013 to be overhauled at the GCR for a 2nd period of mainline running from 2019. Also the new operators inc Saphos are running trains, Vintage Trains will be next. Plus a big feature on 10 years of Tornado with the loco very much in demand. Mainline steam is pretty healthy [though this weather is not ideal!].

 

Dava

[Reorte]

Tks. Where was the 2nd sequence taken?

Clapham according to the video, and it matches a quick Google peek. The site of the rather less well-known (and rather quieter!) Clapham Junction, long gone now though.

[cal.n]

Tks. Where was the 2nd sequence taken?

 

A farm not far from Clapham station gives the view shown of the horseshoe curve. Clapham is between Carnforth and Hellifield.

 

35018 had a sucessful test run on wednesday, the injector leak on the firemans side still present, but didn't appear to be affecting performance.

 

[adb968008]

Saw the cat hex to Salisbury yesterday, sadly they’ve given up with steam from Horsham altogether, and I guess the load is a reflection of losing steam off what was the more interesting steam section in the past.

 

9 coaches... including 1 Support coach, 1 buffet and a BSK, so 6 revenue vehicles, which looked like 2 dining, 2 first and 2 standard...

 

I don’t know how full it was later, but when I saw it, after Cheam, it was mostly empty, well off the 13-14 coaches fully laden that 70013 took a few years back, with what must have been close to 500 on, I have to assume hundreds of people jumped on at Clapham (the last loading point).

I saw it return later in the evening too, but it was a ghost train then too.

 

By all accounts a good trip for photographers, all windows and sidelights closed, no diesel, nice weather, loco gets to stretch its legs without too much load behind.

Edited March 9, 2018 by adb968008

[ba14eagle]

This mornings Torbay Express is headed by 60009, with a class 66 tucked inside - no doubt to assist with traction, without setting fire to the countryside.

But what's the point? If you'd booked this excursion, I expect, many want the steam haulage - but you're not really getting it - are you?

Is there any point in the train running with the steam loco, when its not really doing anything. With all the attendant costs and wear and tear, is there any point in the loco owners even lighting the engine up?

For different reasons, I see all these West Coast Railway charters - pretty much all of them have a diesel somewhere in the consist and often, the diesel loco is actually doing a lot of the work. As a passenger, wouldn't you feel a bit cheated? Its not like you can gauge the steam loco's performance (if that's your thing) when its being assisted.

What do others think?

[royaloak]

The Torbay Express is aimed at Mr and Mrs Normal and their disposable income, as long as they can hear the chuff, see the steam and tuck into their din dins they will be happy.

 

Edit-

Of course the alternative to no diesel is no train due to the high fire risk, what would you prefer if you had booked on the train?

Edited July 15, 2018 by royaloak

[Dava]

No-one wants to risk a lineside fire and steam locos often get blamed, remember the ECML a couple of years ago?

 

I'd like to say it's different on the preserved Great Central mainline, but it's not:

 

"Due to the increased risk of lineside fires due to the recent hot and dry weather, our regular steam passenger service will be operated by diesel traction on Sunday 15th July 2018."

 

Enjoy the heritage diesels till it rains.

 

Dava

[faulcon1]

Blimey you lot are so lucky and yet you're whinging and moaning like an old lady at a country fair with her knickers round her ankles. How would like to live in a country where mainline steam tours are few and far between. Where there a no heritage railways in your part of the country and its a two to three days drive just to get to one not six.

Well I live in that country and that state is New South Wales Australia. I had a holiday last year in England and Wales visiting preserved railways. I can't do that in Australia. None of our steam locos run in the summer months and due to the fire risk which runs from October through to April, it's diesels only for any mainline runs whether you like it or not.

Puffing Billy at Belgrave in the state of Victoria runs steam on a 2'6" narrow gauge and the full run from Belgrave to Gembrook isn't cheap either. There's the Victorian Goldfields Railway at Maldon and that's broad gauge of 5'3" from Maldon to Castlemaine and back and then there's the 2'6" gauge railway at Walhalla from Walhalla to Thomson but that's diesel only. Puffing Billy's 7A a 2-6-2 tank loco did visit but it's not a permanent loco at Walhalla. That's about it. 

The Zig Zag railway hasn't operated for years and may still be years from resuming operations and the loop line at Thirlmere. But once you've filmed a train on that line on the small part that the trains run on there's nothing else close to home. 

 

There may come a time in the not too distant future where Network Rail having faster trains may tell mainline steam loco operators, sorry but all of your mainline ticketed locos are just too slow for today's modern railway. They can't do 100mph up hill and down dale and they're getting in the way of the TOC's. So due to their lower speed compared with the TOC's trains they're barred from the mainline. I can see you lot foaming at the mouth if that comes to pass. 

[Dava]

"Blimey you lot are so lucky and yet you're whinging and moaning like an old lady at a country fair with her knickers round her ankles. How would like to live in a country where mainline steam tours are few and far between. Where there a no heritage railways in your part of the country and its a two to three days drive just to get to one not six."

 

Calm down and have a beer? Canada and much of the US are quite as steam deprived as Australia, if not more so.

 

Yes we are lucky in the UK and preserved diesels have their uses. Anyway it's looking like rain later this week. Meanwhile much of humanity has to learn to live with dangerous levels of heat and fire risk, so let's put it in perspective and enjoy what we've got.

[Ncarter2]

 

 

There may come a time in the not too distant future where Network Rail having faster trains may tell mainline steam loco operators, sorry but all of your mainline ticketed locos are just too slow for today's modern railway. They can't do 100mph up hill and down dale and they're getting in the way of the TOC's. So due to their lower speed compared with the TOC's trains they're barred from the mainline. I can see you lot foaming at the mouth if that comes to pass.

 

Not likely, the amount of freight that shares the tracks which runs at no more than 75mph means they are not going to cause such issues. What is more liable is it becomes cost prohibitive and/or network capacity reaches saturation and it’s not possible.

Of the latter, capacity is not yet an issue, there are plenty of locations in which Steam can be accommodated.

[adb968008]

I don’t the Network Rail will ban steam, it doesn’t have an agenda either way.. train is a train.

As long as there’s a path available any train can run in it.

 

I think though the future is less about preserved steam and more about commercial oppourtunity.

 

If you look how the pieces are falling, we see self contained, self centred “steam” businesses emerging, with their own locos, stock, crews and maintenance, if your not in the club, your out of the club.

 

The last few years has seen a marked drop off of enthusiast owned steam locomotives on the Mainline, and a marked drop off of enthusiast catered tours. the “fun” aspect of preservation has gone to hard nosed commercialism...

 

What have we lost.. in recent times anything below a class 4 is now a memory, odd ball jollys that make the hobby fun have gone.. those one offs.. branchline trips, freight line excursions, or routes where steam took over a line for a series of shuttles for a weekend.. LTS, Beaconsfield etc are gone, even the “off piste” one off runs like the A4 and Duchess trip round Scotland, Wandering 1500 etc are but memories.

 

It looks to me like the future will be high end commercially profitable operations of dining trains, using show pony steam to provide a profit to the operations owners along well established routes. In that sense the 2nd class coach has no mainline future, and oppourtunities for volunteer run preserved steam will be lost. It will be a staple diet of set steam fleets in the future and the rest of the preserved fleet will be plinthed or stored unless they find lines that are willing to take on the big locos.

 

A number of volunteers I’ve spoken to have expressed unease at going Mainline in the future due to the changed landscape, some comments are more scathing than others and few out it into words for fear of damaging their chances with a toc, however a good tame example of the issue is this on the 6233 website..

 

http://www.prclt.co.uk/pmr-tours.html

 

Quote:

 

Unfortunately we are not yet able to confirm any ‘PMR Tours’ trips with the Duchess for 2018. Whilst we had originally intended to run several of our own trips, this has become increasingly difficult due to various obstacles including:

 

A growing shortage of main line steam drivers available to be provided by West Coast Railways, our Train Operating Company. WCR is understandably prioritising the operation of its own trips rather than third party organisations such as ‘PMR Tours’.

Less availability of coaching stock for hire from WCR due to heavy demand from tour operators who operate on a regular basis and so get first priority.

Increased costs involved in operating a main line trip, e.g. hire of diesel locomotives and coaching stock.

 

 

In short, the days of enthusiasts celebrating the efforts of volunteering for fun are gone, and if cannot pay it won’t play.. business / profit first. I don’t think this is what enthusiasts envisaged back in 1968 and may have acted differently if it were known their thousands of hours efforts, thousands of pounds unquestioned donations, will someday belong to some entity that takes a dividend for their past hard work, donations and free labour, but that at least to me looks like where things are going on the Mainline.

 

What does concern me is the lack of passenger dissent / complete acceptance of diesels on the back, on the front and a steam loco just there with a small fire to make the lubrication work, blow the whistle and exhaust some white smoke.. if that’s all people want, why bother Mainline registering steam at all ?

Maybe You could register it as rolling stock instead, remove the regulator handle, reduce the boiler pressure and push it with the diesel... much cheaper.. maybe that’s how we get anything below a class 4 back on the Mainline ? - Thomas The Tank may yet take 12 air-con sealed door windowed coaches over the S&C, with a 47 tucked inside doing the work.. and i’m Sure that will be a repeat sell out success.

 

Will there be Mainline steam in the future.. yes as long as theirs profit to be made.

There will be continued Mainline steam into the future, and quite a lot of it, routine workings but with a smaller pool of locos, but I’m not sure i’d call it Preserved Steam, in the sense we knew it.., these will be working machines with cost centres and revenue goals attached like any other form of modern traction and over time will source their spares from former working preserved locos that are no longer operational.

Edited August 7, 2018 by adb968008