MK2D De-classified 7-window TSO

[longdavey]

Hi all,

 

I have some surplus Airfix/GMR MK2D FO that i want to find a use for.

 

I intend to repaint one as a declassified TSO (56xx? i think).

 

Does anyone have any reference pictures that I can use as a guide? I have searched the interweb but can only find pictures of Hornby's effort (R4463B)

I'd like to see the real thing. Where they in Executive colour scheme or just the later 'INTERCITY' scheme ?

 

Thanks in advance!

John

[ISW]

Hi all,

 

I have some surplus Airfix/GMR MK2D FO that i want to find a use for.

 

I intend to repaint one as a declassified TSO (56xx? i think).

 

Does anyone have any reference pictures that I can use as a guide? I have searched the interweb but can only find pictures of Hornby's effort (R4463B)

I'd like to see the real thing. Where they in Executive colour scheme or just the later 'INTERCITY' scheme ?

 

Thanks in advance!

John

 

John,

 

The 56xx series numbers was already allocated to MkIId TSOs so that bit isn't right ...

 

The Harris 'British Rail Mark 2 Coaches' book says that by 1989 the majority of the MkIId FOs (Diagram AD105) were surplus. An appendix shows several (not all) were converted to SOs in 1989 to the 62xx series (Diagram AC217) and fitted with 2+2 seating (although the Airfix windows are so dark that I don't think anyone will notice the 2+1 seating inside!).

 

Wikipedia says that in 1989, 36 Mk2d coaches were converted to Second Open 6200-6235 TSO. 

 

I 'think' they would still be in BR blue & grey at that time.

 

If you want to go 'mad', one of the AC217's was repainted into Stagecoach livery for the Aberdeen to London overnight service ...

 

Ian

Edited January 13, 2018 by ISW

[crompton 33]

Hi john.welcome to the fourm  MK 2 coaching stock photos here is the link . https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock

Edited January 13, 2018 by crompton 33

[longdavey]

John,

 

The 56xx series numbers was already allocated to MkIId TSOs so that bit isn't right ...

 

The Harris 'British Rail Mark 2 Coaches' book says that by 1989 the majority of the MkIId FOs (Diagram AD105) were surplus. An appendix shows several (not all) were converted to SOs in 1989 to the 62xx series (Diagram AC217) and fitted with 2+2 seating (although the Airfix windows are so dark that I don't think anyone will notice the 2+1 seating inside!).

 

Wikipedia says that in 1989, 36 Mk2d coaches were converted to Second Open 6200-6235 TSO. 

 

I 'think' they would still be in BR blue & grey at that time.

 

If you want to go 'mad', one of the AC217's was repainted into Stagecoach livery for the Aberdeen to London overnight service ...

 

Ian

Thank Ian,

 

It looks like Hornby used the wrong numbers for their 7 window SO ..... hardly surprising

I see the stagecoach one, 6202.., very Garish colours!!!

 

I`ll do some more research with the diagram numbers you supplied,

 

Cheers,

John

[longdavey]

Hi john.welcome to the fourm  MK 2 coaching stock photos here is the link . https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Coaches/Mk2-Coaching-Stock

Thanks for the link, unfortunately no MK2D declassified, just MK2F in a Anglia livery.

[Flood]

As ISW has said 36 Mk2D FO coaches were converted to TSOs in 1989 (6200 - 6235). They had 58 seats so were more than 4 seats per window, the interior view in Harris shows tables for the end and centre two windows, unidirectional seats for all the others (please see my subsequent post).

 

The 1989 Platform 5 Summer Special has numbers from 6200 to 6235 but no allocation for 6218, 6219, 6226 - 6229 (i.e. they weren't converted yet). All the others were based at Old Oak Common and were all in InterCity* livery except for 6211, 6215, 6230 - 6233 and those listed above. Harris states that these were for the short-lived reintroduction of loco-hauled services from Paddington to Bristol, Cardiff and the West Country. He also states that from June 1990 they were being used on West Coast relief trains.

 

By 1992 all of the 62xx series were in InterCity* livery and were split between Old Oak Common (InterCity Charter stock), Wembley (InterCity West Coast stock) and Bounds Green (InterCity Charter stock).

 

*When first introduced in 1987 Swallow livery was only to be applied to Mk3 and Mk2F stock. A number of Mk2D and Mk2E coaches came out unbranded once the old InterCity transfers had been used up. The INTERCITY as used on Swallow livery was later applied to all newly repainted stock but I have no idea which branding these converted FO stock carried. Checking the 1988 Coaching Stock book some of the FO stock was repainted when converted, others were already in the old executive style anyway.

 

Edit: I've found a photo on the internet of 1C71 18.47 Paddington - Bristol Temple Meads in July 1990. All the stock except the Mk2D FK and Mk2D TSOT has Swallow style INTERCITY branding. http://www.hondawanderer.com/47808_Shrivenham_1990.htm

Edited January 14, 2018 by Flood

[timbowilts]

[

Edit: I've found a photo of 1C71 18.47 Paddington - Bristol Temple Meads in July 1990. All the stock except the Mk2D FK and Mk2D TSOT has Swallow style INTERCITY branding. http://www.hondawanderer.com/47808_Shrivenham_1990.htm

 

That photo by Martin Loader reminds me what a nice looking livery it was when the train was uniform. Much better than the dull dark green we suffer nowadays

 

Tim T

[longdavey]

Fantastic information Flood, I really appreciate the detailed info and my first ever sighting of a declassified mk2D in your pic

[Flood]

Just for completion (and the seating layout) here is the BR drawing for an AC217. The whole Coaching Stock Diagrams document is available from the Barrowmore website, Book 200. http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

[kintbury jon]

If you don't mind the fact that they are 2f's and not 2d's, there is the batch of 64xx coaches that retained blue/grey but declassified.  They were eventually converted into the 68xx series and repainted in IC colours.

 

http://www.railscans.co.uk/picture/_c48_36m.jpg

[sub39h]

Could anyone clarify which liveries the 62xx Mk2D TSO (ex-FO) coaches carried please? I’ve found loads lf photos of the Mk2F declassified coaches both in blue/grey and Intercity but am yet to find a photo of a declassified Mk2D FO?

 

Thanks

[Bomag]

Sub39h

 

As implied above they were not decassified in the same way the the 64xx Mk2c and Mk2f were i.e. the later retained 2+1.

 

Given that they were converted i.e. reseated and effectively refurbished they followed the corperate internal and external branding of the time. The colour scheme was IC swallow, whather all of them got the full branding with swallow logo when released is uncertain; however, if you cannot find a picture then it is unlikely that you will be challanged.

[Flood]

Could anyone clarify which liveries the 62xx Mk2D TSO (ex-FO) coaches carried please? I’ve found loads lf photos of the Mk2F declassified coaches both in blue/grey and Intercity but am yet to find a photo of a declassified Mk2D FO?

 

Thanks

See the photo linked in post #6. Those shown are in Swallow and as they were all converted in 1989 I doubt they carried anything else.

[The Fatadder]

See the photo linked in post #6. Those shown are in Swallow and as they were all converted in 1989 I doubt they carried anything else.

I think I am right in saying there carried Intercity (swallow) until repainted into FIrst Great Western fag packet around 2000

[sub39h]

See the photo linked in post #6. Those shown are in Swallow and as they were all converted in 1989 I doubt they carried anything else.

I wouldn’t be able to identify that as an Mk2D at that range lol

Edited November 23, 2018 by sub39h

[Pete the Elaner]

I wouldn’t be able to identify that as an Mk2D at that range

There are some clues but I don't quite know which belonged to which sub-class. I am sure someone will be along to clarify shortly:

Looking at the first 2 coaches, they both have 7 windows per side, so should be declassified 1sts. Red vestibules are visible inside the doors. I believe Mk2 B/C/D were the only ones with red vestibules. Possibly also some early Mk2Es because they did not always change everything immediately with the newer revision.

The coaches have air con style windows, so they can't be Mk2B/C.

Those in the photo also have both toilets on the same side. Didn't they change this to opposite sides at opposite ends? I am not sure if this change was from D-E or E-F though.

[sub39h]

There are some clues but I don't quite know which belonged to which sub-class. I am sure someone will be along to clarify shortly:

Looking at the first 2 coaches, they both have 7 windows per side, so should be declassified 1sts. Red vestibules are visible inside the doors. I believe Mk2 B/C/D were the only ones with red vestibules. Possibly also some early Mk2Es because they did not always change everything immediately with the newer revision.

The coaches have air con style windows, so they can't be Mk2B/C.

Those in the photo also have both toilets on the same side. Didn't they change this to opposite sides at opposite ends? I am not sure if this change was from D-E or E-F though.

Toilets on the same side is applicable to all air con FOs I believe. Mk2D TSOs also have the toilets on the same side, unlike the E/F which have them on opposite corners.

 

I thought the Mk2D FOs had bump stops which those coaches don’t?

[Flood]

I'll agree that from that range it is virtually impossible, there is a hint of red inside the passenger doors to denote the red vestibules as stated by Pete. Mk2D FO stock from 3189 to 3216 did not have bump stops. This was the batch initially for the London Midland that required 800V train heating supply.

 

The two main reasons for identification are the service worked and liveries. They are on a Paddington to Bristol service and all of those converted were initially allocated to Old Oak Common. As also quoted in post #6 "Harris states that these were for the short-lived reintroduction of loco-hauled services from Paddington to Bristol, Cardiff and the West Country." The remaining 64xx series Mk2F declassified firsts were all allocated to Wembley in 1989 (apart from one at Polmadie) and they were all still in blue and grey. A fair few of the Mk2F FO declassified stock had already been converted to 12xx series RFB stock.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Flood

[sub39h]

Ok great thank you. I think i’ll have to butcher one of my Hornby Mk2E FOs into a declassified MK2F SO to bolster my rake. So it can be blue grey, I need to steal a fan off a scrap Lima Mk2F I have and remove one of the underframe boxes. I know I also should replace the roof hatch (Mk2Fs were bigger were they not?) and all of my Hornby Mk2Es need their roe-vacs replacing with the ones I got from Shawplan.

 

Would different Mk2 air con types run in the same rake commonly on the WCML? The WCML got Ds, Es and Fs didn’t it?

[Flood]

It depends when you're modelling. From 1983 onwards the splits stated below were about the norm for each type apart from the fact that the Western Region still also had some loco hauled air con trains until 1986.

 

By 1988 most of the Mk2D TSOs were on Anglia (there were a few Cross Country allocated ones), about 2/3rds of the Mk2E TSOs were on Cross Country services and based at Polmadie or Longsight with the remainder being West Coast and most of the Mk2F TSOs were on the West Coast based at Longsight or Oxley.

 

The Firsts were complicated. Anglia had some of the early batch of Mk2D FOs (up to 3188) and about a 1/4 of the Mk2E FOs. West Coast used the late Mk2D FOs along with the majority of the Mk2E and Mk2F FOs and Cross Country had a small number of Mk2F FOs (Cross Country trains tended to use Mk2D FKs or BFKs). All the types were also allocated to the Charter fleet and also by East Coast on their Sleeper trains (until May 1988).

 

So for West Coast you are looking pretty solid Mk2F and some Mk2E for Seconds with virtually any air con First Open possible. All types of the BSOs were solely used on West Coast apart from eleven of the sixteen Mk2D BSOs which were on Anglia.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Flood

[sub39h]

It depends when you're modelling. From 1983 onwards the splits stated below were about the norm for each type apart from the fact that the Western Region still also had some loco hauled air con trains until 1986.

 

By 1988 most of the Mk2D TSOs were on Anglia (there were a few Cross Country allocated ones), about 2/3rds of the Mk2E TSOs were on Cross Country services and based at Polmadie or Longsight with the remainder being West Coast and most of the Mk2F TSOs were on the West Coast based at Longsight or Oxley.

 

The Firsts were complicated. Anglia had some of the early batch of Mk2D FOs (up to 3188) and about a 1/4 of the Mk2E FOs. West Coast used the late Mk2D FOs along with the majority of the Mk2E and Mk2F FOs and Cross Country had a small number of Mk2F FOs (Cross Country trains tended to use Mk2D FKs or BFKs). All the types were also allocated to the Charter fleet and also by East Coast on their Sleeper trains (until May 1988).

 

So for West Coast you are looking pretty solid Mk2F and some Mk2E for Seconds with virtually any air con First Open possible. All types of the BSOs were solely used on West Coast apart from eleven of the sixteen Mk2D BSOs which were on Anglia.

Great thanks Flood - so i’ve just noticed from one of your old posts on another thread that Mk2F FOs could have Stones fans same as Mk2Es.

 

I don’t suppose you happen to know which declassified Mk2Fs had the Stones equipment please because it makes converting a Hornby Mk2E that much easier? Similarly do you know which RFBs had Stones and which had the Temperature ones?

 

Thanks again

[Bomag]

Stones fitted Mk2F FO 3277-3318 (lot 30845) and 3358-81 (part of lot 30859)

 

RFB

1200, 01, 03, 06, 11, 14 - 17, 20, 21, 50, 52, 55, 56, 59

 

SO ex FO

6418, 20, 21, 23 - 33, 45 - 47, 58-61, 64