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Martin Finney 7mm LNER A3





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#1 PAD

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 20:26

Having recently completed the building of my Gladiator Duchess and with my L1 from the  same stable going through the paint shop, my thoughts turned to what to get  next. I was leaning towards the  Scorpio Std 3 2-6-2 when purely by chance, I came  across this unbuilt  Martin Finney A3 plus non corridor tender and a full set of Slaters wheels for  a very good price  on ebay. Long story short, the Std 3 will have  to wait.

 

Having said the price was very good, it was still a considerable outlay and therefore a bit of a gamble, although the  seller stated that as far as was know  it was complete. I have  checked  all the etchings , castings and  other  bits and  bobs and  all is  there. There is  a slight  problem with the  Slaters wheels  which I was aware of  before  purchasing, but  I'll come  to that.

 

Here are the  loco etchings. There was some minor damage to a few of  the  smaller more delicate parts which I have  easily straightened and  which will cause no issues in construction.

20180115_154956.jpg

 

20180115_155210.jpg

 

20180115_160422.jpg

 

20180115_161009.jpg

 

20180115_161346.jpg

 

20180115_160721.jpg

 

And the castings etc. plus the  wheels.

20180115_162029.jpg

 

No problem  with the  driving wheels, but  the  leading  and  trailing wheels are the  standard type with 3/16 axles instead of the  special Finney variety with 5/32 axles. I am confidant  I can use the  leading  wheels without problem by opening out the  holes in the bogie frame to accept  larger bushes. I am not  sure  if  that is  the  case with the  trailing wheels as I do not  think there  is  enough metal on the cartazzi slider arrangement to take 3/16 bushes, but we will see.

 

Now the  tender etches.

20180115_181852.jpg

 

20180115_182112.jpg

 

20180115_182635.jpg

There is  an extra loose part in this photo which is  a duplicate of the coal hole and front panel. This  was taped over the  corresponding part on the  fret but  is  slightly  different  in terms  of  having  some  extra tabs. I believe this may  have  been added to correct an error in the original artwork  but as yet my  scanning of the instructions has not spotted any reference  to it.

 

20180115_183232.jpg

 

As with the  leading and trailing wheels, the  tender wheels are the 3/16 axle standard Slaters type. They are  also spoked wheels not  disc. However, I believe I can use these also by widening the  slots in the  inner tender frame to except the  larger diameter axles, and  converting them to discs should just be  a  matter of  making some  disc inserts.

 

My initial impression of  the kit  was WOW!!  I never expected to ever purchase a Finney pacific kit due  to the  high cost which puts them outside my budget, or  at least what I am willing to spend on a locomotive kit. In this  case, with the  inclusion of the wheels (even if I replace the  leading and trailing wheels), the cost of the loco and  tender works out at less than the cost of  the  Gladiator Duchess, so I am very lucky to have spotted it.

 

However, some  of  the  etchings  are very thin and  quite fragile, so  extra care will be needed to avoid damage.  I was also surprised to see that the couplings are supplied as etchings, and the brake rigging and crossbeams are very thin and  will need replacing or beefing up, but  we'll see.

 

Luckily I had already amassed all the relevant works of reference mentioned in the  instruction and I have  found and  bookmarked three builds on here, which is  always useful.  I need to get my head  around all the  information and decide which prototype to model. However, my preference is for single chimney variant running in BR Green in the 1950s. Happy days!

 

Cheers,

Peter


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#2 Craigw

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 20:57

Congratulations on your purchase!

 

I saw that and was very sorely tempted to make an A3 my second 7mm scale indulgence (I purchased one of the very last Rover kits)

 

I have a finney A4 in 4mm scale that is a similar Ebay indulgence.

 

Looking forward to this one, your builds are always a pleasure to watch and learn from.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W


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#3 dibateg

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:38

Nice one Pete -

 

Looking forward to the build. I enjoyed the Finney V2 build. I never thought I'd do a Finney - but sold something and decided to get the V2 whilst I had the money..

 

Regards

Tony



#4 JeffP

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 09:35

AFAIK, Slaters will sell you the correct axles for the wheels you have?

 

Look carefully at photos, some A3's had disc wheeled tenders.



#5 Silverstreak

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 15:16

Pete

 

You will find this a very rewarding kit to build resulting in a very accurate 7mm A3. As you have already noted some etchings are quite thin including many small delicate etches that need to be soldered into place and which appear to have built in wings that take flight,,,,, so beware  

 

The great thing about Finney kits is that if formed correctly all etched parts fit with a high degree of precision and the castings whether white metal or lost wax are superb

.

Having completed an A4, A3 and V2 with a Duchess on the go you could say I'm a Finney fan

 

Incidentally my Finney A3 has a DJH highsided non corridor tender fitted with Spoked tender wheels while my DJH A3 with coal railed tender has disc wheels

 

So visual evidence of your chosen prototype is essential

 

Regards

 Bob

ps   This was 60051 before going off to the local Paintshops

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  • 60051.jpg

Edited by Silverstreak, 16 January 2018 - 15:33 .

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#6 Western Star

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 15:24

AFAIK, Slaters will sell you the correct axles for the wheels you have?

Not quite Jeff...  those wheels for Finney which are supplied with 5/32" axles have a different size of brass insert in the wheel boss.  The 3/16" axles do not fit into the boss for 5/32" axles.  If wheels with 3/16" axles cannot be used with the kit then those wheels and axles shall need to be exchanged and Slaters will do that provided that the offered wheels are unused.


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#7 PAD

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 15:40

Hi Tony,
I certainly never expected to buy any of the Finney Pacifics (including the V2). I was thinkng I might stretch to the GWR large prairie when it's re-introduced by F7, but I just happened to end up in the right place on eBay at the right time. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can make of a high end kit.

Jeff,
Thanks but I am aware that some had disc and some spoked tender wheels. Need to do the research before deciding.

As to changing the axles, that's not possible as the 5/32 axles and wheels are a push fitting. Slaters might swap the trailing wheel set for a nominal fee, or if not I don't mind buying one set if necessary, the others I can use. If I knew somebody with a lathe I could ask them to turn down one of the 3/16 axles for me.

Bob,
I agree the kit is superb. I'm in two minds whether to build it or frame the lot and hang it on the wall. It would certainly be more of a work of art than anything Tracy Emmin could do!

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PAD, 17 April 2018 - 21:49 .

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#8 Silverstreak

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 15:59

Pete

 

Just one minor point, I note that your tender kit represents one of the newer build Streamline type which limits you chosen prototype down to if I recall correctly five examples

 

60046 58 84 95 and of course 60103

 

Regards

Bob 


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#9 Rob Pulham

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 17:17

I am looking forward to this one Peter,  I am glad to hear that you got it at a good price too. Having had a similar experience with the recent purchase of my B16, I know how good it feels to get a bargain.

 

The Finney A3 is the one that I am missing (Chris had bought me a DJH A3 before discovering Finney so she bought me the A4, V2 and Duchess but I haven't yet persuaded her that I should have an A3 to complete the set). She has put her (my) name down for a Finney7 B1 though so I am certainly not complaining.


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#10 PAD

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 19:56

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info. I've got all the relevant reference works but I'll bear in mind what you say when doing the research.

Rob,
Yes I got lucky as I just stumbled across it when I was looking for drawing instruments which I collect. No idea how, but I then quickly checked the cost of the wheels, the F7 Duchess and V2 (to get an idea of what a new one might cost), and based on that decided that assuming all was OK, is was worth a punt. Fortunately apart from a slight issue with smaller wheels, all is in order.

Looking forward to destroying those beautiful etchings!

Cheers,
Peter
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#11 LaScala

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 20:55

I am looking forward to this one Peter,  I am glad to hear that you got it at a good price too. Having had a similar experience with the recent purchase of my B16, I know how good it feels to get a bargain.

 

The Finney A3 is the one that I am missing (Chris had bought me a DJH A3 before discovering Finney so she bought me the A4, V2 and Duchess but I haven't yet persuaded her that I should have an A3 to complete the set). She has put her (my) name down for a Finney7 B1 though so I am certainly not complaining.

Don't complain, I'm happy with gifts of socks AND underpants never mind a stellar stable of top notch kits...........


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#12 david.hill64

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:50

You lucky man! I am really looking forward to his build. It looks like there will be options for frame cut outs so I think it will definitely be a case of choose a number and build accordingly. I did the Finney A4 with a very similar chassis and i all went together well - just as you would expect. I was lucky enough to have a set of Alan Harris wheels for that build.


Edited by david.hill64, 17 January 2018 - 05:52 .

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#13 DougN

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:40

Congratulations on your purchase!
I have a finney A4 in 4mm scale that is a similar Ebay indulgence.
 
Looking forward to this one, your builds are always a pleasure to watch and learn from.
 
Regards,
 
Craig W


Well Craig I have the V2, A4 and an A3 all in 4mm all to be built at some time! If you lose interest I would be happy to offer another kit an Australian home... thank goodness I am 43years young just to get through the kits I have but as I have said people with additional things to do live longer!

The V2 tender went together like a dream too. Must get around to finishing it and the rest of the loco some time!

I too will be very interested to watch this build this year! In fact one of my New Years goals was to see if I can lose some weight and get fitter again... and finish some of the kits I have started but not yet finished! Most of the way through a D&S NER dia 15 coach.

All the best
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#14 PAD

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 20:24

Bob,
Thanks for the photo of 60051. Feel free to post a few more.

From what I've read about Finney kits, it's seems that due to their complexity, to avoid cock ups, it's best to follow the sequence of events as laid out in the instructions. With that in mind, I've gone off on a tangent.

I wanted to settle how I was going to resolve the issue of the axle for the cartazzi slider. Having given it some thought and checked the diameter of the holes for the bushes for the Finney type axles, I decided it was possible to use the wheels that came with the kit. Here's what I settled on.

There are three sets of frame spacers sizes provided in the kit, large for scale 7, medium for finescale, and a third narrower set. I'm using the middle size ones and the bogie and cartazzi set up have corresponding size spacers.

First the axle bush holes in the slider were "reamed" slightly to accept the 3/16 axles without brass bushes. Then the slider sides from the scale 7 size were separated from the base and filed to fit inside the sides of the medium one I'm using. These were soldered in place to give more of a bearing surface for the axle, and the the top of the slider solder to the slots in the top of the unit to complete. Here is the medium slider base, top and the large base with the sides separated.
20180117_165705.jpg

And lined up with a spare axle for soldering.
20180117_154418.jpg

And soldered.
20180117_165336.jpg

The double thickness sides should provide enough bearing surface for the axle. It's not possible to fit a 3/16 brass bearing as there is not enough metal in the slider sides to enlarge the hole to fit them.

Here it is with the wheels in.
20180117_165828.jpg

That solved, I'm now going to build the tender. I made a start on the inner frames and here's where I got to before I ran out of time. The upper one is just snipped from the fret and the lower one has been de-cusped, had the lower part of the slots folded over and the front slot enlarged to take a 3/16 axle.
20180117_184555.jpg

The right angled tabs at the bottom of the slots will be folded over to make the axle keeps, once all the slots are enlarged.
So far so good and I'm now happy that I can use all the wheel sets that came with the kit.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PAD, 20 January 2018 - 13:18 .

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#15 Dave Holt

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 23:58

Peter,

It looks like you could extend your idea on the Cartazzi carrier by adding the uprights from the third (narrow) alternative to the outside of your structure, in place of some of the spacing washers, if you want even greater bearing area.

I must say, your opening out of the axle slot in the tender frame looks much neater than I would probably achieve.

Dave.


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#16 PAD

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 09:07

Peter,
It looks like you could extend your idea on the Cartazzi carrier by adding the uprights from the third (narrow) alternative to the outside of your structure, in place of some of the spacing washers, if you want even greater bearing area.
I must say, your opening out of the axle slot in the tender frame looks much neater than I would probably achieve.
Dave.


Morning Dave,
Yes that's a good idea. I was keeping the narrow one as a fall back in case things went pear shaped, but as you say I can add them to the sides and dispense with the washers.

The vertical slot was widened with a 3/16 chainsaw file. I normally use it to "ream" the holes in 3/16 brass bushes. They do the job better than the 3/16 parallel reamer which I have. I thought about getting a 7/32 reamer but they are very expensive, and then I read somewhere on here that the chainsaw file was good for this application. I got a pack of 3 on ebay for a few quid. So one slot down and seven to go!

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PAD, 18 January 2018 - 19:29 .

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#17 PAD

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 20:21

I've left the cartazzi assembly for now but will be taking up Dave Holt'suggestion to add the spare sides to increase the bearing surface and also negate the need for washers.

So pressing on with the tender inner frames, here is one side completed with the keeps in place and the other ready for the axle slots to be widened.
20180118_135908.jpg

And both sides completed.
20180118_144552.jpg

And with the frame spacers soldered in place.
20180118_190644.jpg
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I think I mentioned before that the etchings are very thin and need extra care to avoid distortion. With the tender frames, it creates a problem at the front end as the spacer has a cut out for the draw bar. The gap means that there is a lack of support at the top of the spacer which has a tendency to bend with handling. I will probably add the brake gear cross shaft temporarily to avoid further flexing.
20180118_190407.jpg

Here's one axle added to check the free vertical movement in the slots. They have all been fettled and operate smoothly.
20180118_190548.jpg

Cheers,
Peter
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#18 Dave Holt

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 21:27

Peter,

It looks like the chassis is designed to be compensated (hole for two cross shafts). Is it one single beam and a twin beam arrangement, to give three point suspension?

Dave.



#19 PAD

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 21:55

Hi Dave,
Yes that's correct. Two beams either side at the back and a centre one for the front. Not my cup of tea really, but simple to do so I'll go with it.

The options for the loco are the same, or rigid rear axle and two beams either side for middle and front. Of the two I would go with the latter, but I may go for my usual simple method of fixed front and rear and sprung middle. We'll see.
Cheers,
Peter

#20 Dave Holt

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:34

Hi Dave,
Yes that's correct. Two beams either side at the back and a centre one for the front. Not my cup of tea really, but simple to do so I'll go with it.

The options for the loco are the same, or rigid rear axle and two beams either side for middle and front. Of the two I would go with the latter, but I may go for my usual simple method of fixed front and rear and sprung middle. We'll see.
Cheers,
Peter

Peter,

It's your model, but I would definitely go with the single front and twin rear beams. None of the other arrangements give proper compensation. On the other hand, perhaps 7 mm doesn't need working suspension because of its mass? Although it would give better electrical contact with the track.

Dave.


Edited by Dave Holt, 19 January 2018 - 10:35 .


#21 PAD

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 21:53

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the comments. However, I am not convinced (and I'm probably in the minority here) of the benefits that compensation, sprung hornblocks or csb etc offer in 7mm. Apart from one or two of my early builds which have rigid chassis albeit with articulated coupling rods, most of my build have rigid front and rear drivers with simple wire springing on the centre axle. They all run and haul well even on poor track whenever I have had the opportunity to test them at shows. I have built a couple with rigid rear axles and two beam compensation on the middle/front, and they perform the same but not any better. I'm still undecided but unlikely to go with the fully compensated option. Yes, I know I'm a modelling philistine (or maybe a dinosaur). Whether in 4mm with a lower mass, there is a benefit I cannot say.

Anyway, on with the tender which is fully compensated as per the instruction. Here are the frames with the three beams added. Two either side at the rear and one in the centre at the front as Dave mentioned earlier. There are two separate mounting tubes at the rear so the beams can move independently on the 1/8 inch brass rod pivot.
20180119_191511.jpg
20180119_191555.jpg

I prepared the wheels and axles and put them in for a quick check, and all works well and the chassis sits level. There is a bit of side play even using the widest spacers, which will be taken up with washers.
20180119_191231.jpg

Having decided to add the sides of the remaining cartazzi frame to the assembly as Dave suggested, I then came up with a slight variations. I took a couple of 3/16 top hat bearings and cut the flanges off with the piercing saw. After cleaning up I fitted them in place of the washers and carefully tack soldered them to the sides of the cartazzi frame. After removing the wheels and axle, I clamped the unit in a machine vice and added more flux and solder to complete the joint. Here's the unit after cleaning up and reaming to get the axle running free. The remains of one of the bearings is on the left.
20180119_191420.jpg

So now there is extra bearing surface and the washers are no longer needed. Here it is with the wheels in.
20180119_191320.jpg

So that just leaves the bogie wheels to deal with which will be quite simple as there is plenty of metal in the frames to ream out the axle holes and fit larger bearings.

Cheers,
Peter


Edited by PAD, 21 January 2018 - 21:58 .

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#22 dibateg

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 08:58

I've not been a fan of three point compensation Peter, since dabbling with it in my 4mm days, I just find it too unstable. For an 8 wheel tender I use pairs of beams, I know its not the perfect solution, but it works for me. WD tender - ignore the incorrect pull rods - they were changed! :-

P1040400.JPG

 


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#23 PAD

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:39

Hi Tony,
Thanks for the comments.

In my 4mm days I built a K's Princess Royal with an etched brass 3 point compensation chassis on the tender. That wasn't very stable as I recall. That said, the A3 seems to be OK. I rolled it over an uneven surface could see the beams moving but the actual frames seemed to be stable. No body work of course so I reserve judgement.
Cheers,
Peter

#24 PAD

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:06

I have now completed the tender chassis and although straight forward was a bit fiddly. The brake hangers and forward pull rods need to be laminated and are a bit fragile until everything is soldered in place. The 0.8mm rods for the brake hangers foul the compensation beams so I had to grind some clearance with a dental burr. Easier to do in the flat and Finney 7 have highlighted this in their revised instructions.
20180126_172908.jpg
20180126_183240.jpg
20180126_183323.jpg

And with the wheels in. I can get them in and out with a little bit of fiddling and may grind a little off the brake shoes to ease things. I'm glad I stuck with the 3/16 axles as it would be much on impossible to get the push on ones off with the brake gear on. Mick Davies from Finney 7 has made the brake gear detachable and those who are interested can see how he did it on my Western Thunder thread.
20180126_183653.jpg 20180126_184755.jpg 20180126_184851.jpg 20180126_184937.jpg

Well that's the first main sub assembly completed. Next up is the tender running plate and outside frames etc.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PAD, 27 January 2018 - 10:09 .

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#25 JeffP

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:08

Might be a candidate for the 3-D printed brakeshoes that ModelU do?