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Point machines on an SR branch line


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  • RMweb Gold

OK, so a bit of background first. I am modelling a Southern Region 3rd rail electrified branch terminus set around 1969. I currently have plans for it to be signalled by semaphore, but was curious as to whether the points would have still been operated manually from the signal box, or if point machines would have been fitted this early? I've got the Newhaven / Seaford branch in mind, but can't find out when they moved to machine operated points.

 

Secondly, if point machines were used, would the loco release point for the run-round be so fitted, or still operated from the signalbox / ground frame (undecided whether to have a ground frame).

 

The layout in question is Blackhurst, which has a thread in the Layout Topics section.

 

Many thanks, Chris

Edited by Geep7
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I think if you have a traditional signalbox - i.e not a SR glasshouse from the 1930s - then semaphore signals and manual, rodded points go together. Point machines tended to appear with a colour-light installation.

 

I would agree with that, especially after having looked up your layout. Outside of some of the main lines in the London area (and by no means all of them) and some major centres, colour light signalling and power operation came quite late to the Southern, so in your cause, full manual signalling would almost certainly be the order of the day.

 

Jim

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  • RMweb Gold

Full mechanical signalling before the days of major colour light schemes. Very likely a ground frame for the engine release crossover.

 

On a slightly larger scale, Windsor and Eton Riverside mechanically signalled. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/srr/R286.htm

Many thanks, especially for the link.

 

In the instance of a ground frame would this just be a single lever to operated both points (the fpl being released from the signal box?), 2 levers, one each to operate each point (again fpl released from the box), or a lever for the fpl and lever(s) for the points?

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  • RMweb Premium

I would agree with that, especially after having looked up your layout. Outside of some of the main lines in the London area (and by no means all of them) and some major centres, colour light signalling and power operation came quite late to the Southern, so in your cause, full manual signalling would almost certainly be the order of the day.

 

 

In some places they're still waiting, aren't they?

 

It's certainly only a few years since the Arun Valley line was modernised.

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Many thanks, especially for the link.

 

In the instance of a ground frame would this just be a single lever to operated both points (the fpl being released from the signal box?), 2 levers, one each to operate each point (again fpl released from the box), or a lever for the fpl and lever(s) for the points?

I can't see any GF/crossover on the track-plan in your Layout thread ? But, assuming that you mean a release crossover at the buffer-stop end of the platform line(s), then:-

 

1. Working from the signal-box or a local GF would depend upon (a) if the points were too far from the SB to worked mechanically at the time they were installed (in which case they might have been connected to the SB at a later date when limits were increased) or (b) sighting problems from the SB made it safer for the points to be worked localy by the guard/shunter.

 

2. Each 'crossover' pair of points would just be one lever.

 

3. Any trailing point in a platform line near to the buffer-stop might well not have a FPL - it varied.

 

4. If the line in which there was a facing point was not a passenger line then it would not need a FPL anyway.

 

5. Depending upon the presumed date of installation, then there might or might not once have been shunt signals worked from the GF which were later removed, hence leaving a spare lever. This was quite common on the L&SWR, but don't know about other companies, so you might want to ignore that :-)

 

6. Certainly in later SR installations with electrical releases there would be a 'release' lever in the GF itself (unlocked from the SB) which then unlocked the other(s).

 

It might be easier with an updated plan posted here :-)

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  • RMweb Gold

Windsor & Eton is shown as a mechanical release from the signal box. There would be a device between the signal box and ground frame, often known as a Midway Lock, which was like a piece of mechanical locking. Lever 30 pulled in the signal box would line up the notches at the lock allowing  lever 1 at the ground frame to be pulled. This would then allow the points lever to be pulled. Lever 30 at the box could not be replaced to normal without normaslising the points and Ground Frame lever 1

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  • RMweb Gold

It might be easier with an updated plan posted here :-)

I'll try a post an updated track plan this evening. Something i've been meaning to do for a while.

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Southern branches started to acquire machine-worked points from the late-1950s but only in conjunction with colour light signals - Sheerness and Bromley North come to mind, although I think that at the latter many points remained mechanically worked as the box opened for the goods and for rush hour working.

 

The more Southern branch terminals I have looked at, the more I have come to the conclusion that there was no laid down standard for how the engine release crossover was worked (unless it was facing to incoming passenger trains in which case it was worked by the box, had a fpl and a running shunt dolly and was fully interlocked). The simplest arrangement for a model of a fictional location that no one can argue with is a crossover worked by a 2-lever ground frame (1 lever release, 1 lever both points) without dollies.

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  • RMweb Gold

Many thanks, especially for the link.

 

In the instance of a ground frame would this just be a single lever to operated both points (the fpl being released from the signal box?), 2 levers, one each to operate each point (again fpl released from the box), or a lever for the fpl and lever(s) for the points?

Engine release crossovers shouldn't need FPLs as there won't be passenger movements over them.

 

The release from the box would just unlock the GF.

 

John

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Engine release crossovers shouldn't need FPLs as there won't be passenger movements over them.

 

 

You might think that, but....

 

If the train is shunted back to the stop-blocks after the run-round, then at least one if not two (or more) coach bogies will run over the trailing point in a facing direction when the train departs again. Certainly there were instances where a FPL was provided, but without knowing the arrangements everywhere I can't comment further than to say that my impression is that those were in a minority.

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  • RMweb Gold

The engine release crossover is on the main platform. I run Multiple Units, which can run right up to the buffer stops (sometimes through them if I forget how much momentum i've put on them  :no: ). So my thought was that there should be at least an FPL on the point on the platform road.

 

I'll just get a track diagram drawn up, and post it up here, which should give a better idea of things. Also, I may need some advice on the signalbox positioning, as i'm not sure where I currently have it is correct.

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Bognor Regis, as I understand, was due to have had point machines fitted in mid 80's. One set (32 points) was done and then machines were used in Littlehampton; which still has mechanical platform stater signals. Bognor had a groundframe controlled run round on platform 3. Release from signal box and NO FPL on crossover. This was regularly used in late 80's by Pullman train on race specials. Bognor is still a mechanically signalled box with full point machines (bar sidings) with the exception of the 'home' signal. Hope this helps. Puck

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The engine release crossover is on the main platform. I run Multiple Units, which can run right up to the buffer stops (sometimes through them if I forget how much momentum i've put on them  :no: ). So my thought was that there should be at least an FPL on the point on the platform road.

 

I would suggest that you need to try to visualise what the operational arrangement would have been at the time that the GF was installed originally. That would determine what was provided initially. Then you decide how - if at all - the installation would have been changed to reflect the 'current' mode of operation.

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  • RMweb Premium

In some places they're still waiting, aren't they?

 

It's certainly only a few years since the Arun Valley line was modernised.

 

On the other hand both Horsham and Dorking got colour lights + motored points in 1938 (and one of those 'Glasshouse' style boxes to control them).

Edited by phil-b259
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  • RMweb Gold

As promised here is a roughly drawn track diagram. I haven't put any signalling on it yet.

 

post-13704-0-52321700-1516909375_thumb.png

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  • RMweb Gold

I would suggest that you need to try to visualise what the operational arrangement would have been at the time that the GF was installed originally. That would determine what was provided initially. Then you decide how - if at all - the installation would have been changed to reflect the 'current' mode of operation.

I think the answer may partly lie in the Board of Trade Requirements. There was a subtle change of wording on 1902, from 'should be' to 'must be' regarding the provision of facing point locks. Before that railways may have been able to argue the case for not providing on engine release crossovers. Changes were not retrospective, the same document raised the minimum height for platforms from 2' 6" to 3'. I don't think everywhere has caught up yet. Edited by TheSignalEngineer
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The LBSCR had very few country branch terminals. A quick check on the signalling arrangements at all of them confirms that there was absolutely no standard pattern. Hayling Island had a hand-worked release crossover outside platform limits, Kemp Town had a 2-lever GF which is shown as working bolt-locks on both points (which makes me suspect that the points actually had economical fpls which were quite widely used on the LBSCR). Most other terminals were shown as having bolt-locks AND dollies - I suspect that the dollies might have been removed by the Southern when due for renewal.

Edited by bécasse
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I think the answer may partly lie in the Board of Trade Requirements. There was a subtle change of wording on 1902, from 'should be' to 'must be' regarding the provision of facing point locks. Before that railways may have been able to argue the case for not providing on engine release crossovers. Changes were not retrospective, the same document raised the minimum height for platforms from 2' 6" to 3'. I don't think everywhere has caught up yet.

That may be but the fact is that there were plenty, perhaps the majority, of engine release crossovers on the Southern which didn't have bolt-locks including Allhallows-on-Sea built brand new in the early 1930s.

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I think Hayling, and some others, had sprung/weighted points on the engine release, but that option can only be used if there is a stop board or mark that prevents (except for ‘incidents’) passenger vehicles being taken over the points.

 

Whole swathes of the territory that I think you are setting Blackhurst in were signalled, and the points controlled, in traditional manner at your dateline. The Oxted Lines, Hastings Line, including IIRC Hastings itself, onwards to Ashford via Rye, I think all of the ‘old’ line via Redhill, most of the Tonbridge to Reading route, mid-Sussex Line. I’m hazier on the bits further in to London, but West Croydon to Wimbledon was deeply trad, West Croydon had semaphores, and ‘proper’ boxes, but I have a feeling that it might have had motor-operated points/signals using some ancient design of actuator. Addiscombe and that back route to Sanderstead were also stuck in the C19th. Caterham Branch, Tattenham Corner Branch, Epsom Downs Branch, I think also. Most of the coast lines, except the immediate environs of Brighton. The Medway valley line.

 

OD will, I’m sure, confirm/deny/supplement my recollections.

 

Non-Southern enthusiasts used to knock BR(S) as being ‘boring, just a load of emus’; but actually it was a fascinating working museum until the 1980s, partly because the SR-proper was very clever at not spending money on things where there was no return in doing so. There were many beautifully kept signalboxes, and much traditional operating ...... I always used to enjoy watching the working of the single line sections, especially the little bit through the back-gardens of Tunbridge Wells.

Edited by Nearholmer
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I think Hayling, and some others, had sprung/weighted points on the engine release, but that option can only be used if there is a stop board or mark that prevents (except for ‘incidents’) passenger vehicles being taken over the points.

Hayling did have sprung points with a hand lever (much like catch points, in fact), there was no STOP board but the point was beyond platform limits so it isn't relevant to the OP's layout where the crossover clearly is within limits. [Previous post corrected in this respect].

 

New SR branch terminal stations (but not within the Central Division) that had release crossovers within platform limits (and which were definitely traversed by departing passenger stock since both lines were normally worked by pull-and-push trains) were Allhallows (1932/1935) and Seaton (1936) and in both cases the release crossovers were worked by the box, at Seaton a fpl (but without a bar) was provided but not at Allhallows.

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  • RMweb Gold

Thank you for all the replies so far.

 

So, I think the consensus is that it would most likely have still been mechanical operation of the points and signals. Which means that i'll have to get around to doing the point rodding.

 

Which brings me to the subject of the signalbox location. Currently it is sited in a cut out of the embankment behind the loco stabling siding (the line off the bay). This however means, a) sighting along the whole platform isn't great, there being a canopy for a fair length of the platform, b) the rodding runs will be rather long and complicated.

 

Now if I relocate the signalbox to the other side if the lines, just by the double slip, I think this reduces the length of the rodding runs, and also the number of tracks the rodding has to run under. Does this make sense? Also, if it was moved to be by the double-slip, there would be visibility of the release crossover to be operated from the box.

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The other very SR option would be to move the lever frame to the platform and either create a little signal box there (Allhallows, Seaton, Sheffield Park etc), or put the frame in a simple open pen, and the instruments in the station office (Cowden, Hever, Ashurst I think, but check).

 

It saves staffing costs, but might make a layout less visually interesting.

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  • RMweb Gold

Kevin is spot on with his observation that trad signalling survived longer on Southern than the electric trains might have implied. It worked, it was simple to maintain - only the costs of manning multiple block posts eventually began to tell against it. So, during my time as Senior Planner at Waterloo in the mid-80s, Portslade - Angmering and Chichester - Havant schemes were developed and implemented. Grove Junction - Eridge closed and that enabled wholesale rationalisation of the Hurst Green - Uckfield section, tacking on to Oxted box which had been renewed for East Grinstead electrification. All this is only circa 30 years ago.

 

Other minor observations include Epsom Downs only being resignalled in about 1970, not least, I think, because the box was falling down. The truncation to the present single platform in a housing estate occurred later, I think. Phil’s point about Dorking and Horsham getting glasshouses for 1938 is valid - but absolute block was still in use, despite all those colour lights. And both Bognor and Arundel did get a glasshouse at the same time. I think Bersted Crossing box may have been abolished then.

 

When Kent Coast electrification was introduced, 1959 - 61, there were lots of resignallings and small panels introduced, but track layouts often remained steam-age. Paddock Wood comes to mind, where crossovers from the Maidstone West line were still in place, and any train entering the up platform from Ashford was severely approach-controlled due to a 20 mph restriction. It was the mid-80s before rationalisation there took place.

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