Imaginary Rolling Stock

[Fat Controller]

I have a book called Londons Lost Riverscape, basically a photographic album of both sides of the River Thames from London Bridge to Greenwich taken in 1937. In one photograph it shows containers being loaded onto a ship, these containers appear to be the same size as the contemporary railway containers, the principle difference being they all had a flat roof.

 

The fish-belly frame appears to be the same as contemporary bogie flat wagons.

The fish-belly underframe followed American practice; I believe the wagons were built by Leeds Forge, who would later build Warflats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Forge_Company suggests they had a patent on this design of wagon underframe. Samson Fox, the founder, was an ancestor of James, Edward, Emilia and Laurence Fox.

Apart from the Stonebridge Park hoppers, and the Consett traffic similar wagons were used for aggregate traffic around Chichester; these would be the last survivors, lasting well into the 1980s. https://www.flickr.com/photos/64657021@N07/24823317493 shows them. The advantage of all these wagons is that there is no need for a hopper, and conveyor belts, just some flat space either side of the tracks. Similar wagons are still found on coal and iron-ore traffic in France and Germany.

[Corbs]

Relevant...

[LNWR18901910]

bogie-train5.jpg

bogie-brake-van.jpg

I like that brake van, I really do.

[LNWR18901910]

Relevant...

I bet that would've made the Guiness Book of World Records.

[LNWR18901910]

ah, this one?

 

I like that brake van. I wonder how it can be made? I'd like one to make one myself, please.

[Nile]

There's a Falcon Brass kit of it.

[LNWR18901910]

There's a Falcon Brass kit of it.

Really? Where can I obtain said kit?

[Corbs]

Really? Where can I obtain said kit?

I belieeeeeve it is here my chum

http://www.falconbrassworks.com/details.php?code=WK206

[The Johnster]

Hmm, I think I have a redundant CCT body and Bogie Bolster E. Presumbly using longer bogies would mean the centres would need to be moved inward? Did your plan have the end doors replaced by plain metal?

Also, I get the impression that you were thinking externally mounted lamps? Any reason why they shouldn't be internally mounted, just inside a window?

 

No reason at all, T, other than a paucity of creative imagination at the time.  I may have been influenced by the thought that a guard on a van still has to go outside onto a balcony to signal to the loco crew that his train is complete and to signalmen that he is 'inside clear' loops and sidings, but internal electric lamps would have been a boon on a cold night when you had to remove the shade from one of the side lamps transferring from the main to the relief between Cardiff and Newport at 40mph.

 

The ends were to be wooden, as metal induces condensation and the door frames need a bit of 'give' to prevent draughts, the bane of a goods guard's life.  

 

If paraffin lamps were being used, one would still have to have them outside to disperse the fumes, which also lead to condensation inside a space.  

 

This sort of project is what Imaginary Rolling Stock is all about; it is unlikely to have ever been built given the trend of the time, which was towards fully fitted trains without vans.  The only brake van attempt which post dates the (flawed in my view) choice of the LNER 20 tonner as the standard van was the abysmal little fibreglass thing they loaded on to Freightliner trains in the short period before the single manning agreement allowed guards to ride in the back cab of the loco on fully fitted trains.  It fell rapidly foul of the NUR, which was prepared to tolerate some pretty grim working conditions as a rule; better was possible but there was not much point by the early 70s.  Good 'might have been' modelling territory, imagine one on an express freight hauled by a BR Standard 2-8-2 8MT...

[Tic-toc]

Such an interesting thread. I'm particually interested in the thought of a much more widely adoption of containerisation.

Of course, the interest of the potential acceleration of goods trains through the use of longer conflat wagons, allowing multiple containers per wagon, would allow the acceleration of passenger services, too. Considering that it was the slow, loose coupled, unbraked goods trains which caused the greatest congestion in steam days.

The conflats would be braked, together with longer wheelbase, as well as bogied conflats, therefore able to be hauled, potentially, at express train speeds.

 

The issue, or reason behind the 9ft wagon wheelbase was due to limitations imposed by wagon turntables. This would obviously be done away with, as containers would be hoisted from the wagon, and distributed around by road.

 

There's a number of other benefits, but I won't go through all of them.

[DavidB-AU]

A Mk4 BG.

 

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

After cutting and shutting lots of Pullman cars together I had some left over bits and so I made a 49' and 63' Pullman style full brake cars. I think the short one looks better somehow. I might even get around to painting them both properly once I finished my Pullmans proper.

 

 

Gibbo.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Gibbo675

[PhilJ W]

Hi Folks,

 

After cutting and shutting lots of Pullman cars together I had some left bitss and so I made a 49' and 63' Pullman style full brake cars. I think the short one looks better somehow. I might even get around to painting them both properly once I finished my Pullmans proper.

 

DSCF0524.JPG

 

Gibbo.

Metro-Cammel built some very similar brake vans for Wagon-lits, to the British loading gauge but longer than your model.

Edited December 27, 2018 by PhilJ W

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

With the relatively low occupancy of the UK Pullmans even with every seat taken, and the target market business travel, I suspect the fairly generous baggage space in the brake ends was adequate. Was a railway company full brake added at need during the big four period??

[Gibbo675]

Metro-Cammel built some very similar brake vans for Wagon-lits, to the British loading gauge but longer than your model.

Hi Phil,

 

Would the baggage cars mentioned have worked with the ten cars built between the Midland Carriage, and Birmingham Carriage Company's works in 1925 ?

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

With the relatively low occupancy of the UK Pullmans even with every seat taken, and the target market business travel, I suspect the fairly generous baggage space in the brake ends was adequate. Was a railway company full brake added at need during the big four period??

Hi 34 ... B&D,

 

You are almost certainly correct and from what I now only the Boat Trains on the Southern between London and Southampton, and London and Dover regularly had full brakes as baggage cars as part of the train.

 

Gibbo.

[PhilJ W]

Hi Phil,

 

Would the baggage cars mentioned have worked with the ten cars built between the Midland Carriage, and Birmingham Carriage Company's works in 1925 ?

 

Gibbo.

Likely as not, they were built c. 1930 for the Orient express. They had sleeping accomodation for the crew and a central birdcage guards lookout. I was wrong in what I said about them fitting the UK loading gauge, the birdcage lookout would have been too high.

[Corbs]

I like those pullman full brakes, Gibbo. Might try something similar as I am trying to come up with a ‘house style’ for my railway’s coaches that’s distinctly different from the Big 4, but not yet found what I’m looking for.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Corbs

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I so wanted vistadome carriages in the UK after I saw some amateur cine shot from American examples...

[Budgie]

I so wanted vistadome carriages in the UK after I saw some amateur cine shot from American examples...

Wouldn't they be too big for the loading gauge?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Wouldn't they be too big for the loading gauge?

No! It's a glass roofed carriage, built to the limit of the loading gauge with - the important bit - the seats raised above a regular height centre walkway, for a better view. (The reduced occupancy would mean quite a fare supplement.)

[Zomboid]

Hi 34 ... B&D,

 

You are almost certainly correct and from what I now only the Boat Trains on the Southern between London and Southampton, and London and Dover regularly had full brakes as baggage cars as part of the train.

 

Gibbo.

The Bournemouth Belle ran with a mk1 BG in the formation towards the end. Usually a borrowed WR Brown/ Cream one to match the Pullman paint job.

I think it was due to non-availability of the Pullman brake cars rather than for additional luggage capacity.

[Gibbo675]

I like those pullman full brakes, Gibbo. Might try something similar as I am trying to come up with a ‘house style’ for my railway’s coaches that’s distinctly different from the Big 4, but not yet found what I’m looking for.

Hi Corbs,

 

The good thing about Pullman cars is that cutting and shutting is easy because the sides are flat. You could use the later Hornby versions as main line stock with the Wrenn ones for secondary services and perhaps use the Triang ones as suburban versions by working extra doors into the sides.

 

Spare brake ends could be shortened and put onto long wheel base goods wagon chassis, even four wheeled passenger stock.

 

There are loads of Wrenn, Triang and Hornby Pullman cars on eBay better still some may be had for quite cheap such as this little selection;

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triang-Pullman-Coaches/183597559783?hash=item2abf446fe7:g:eW0AAOSwK5tcCnD6:rk:192:pf:0

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-00-Pullman-Coaches-X-4-With-Missing-Weel-Bogies-Vgc/223287892243?hash=item33fcfed913:g:G08AAOSw87lcF00g:rk:194:pf:0

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WRENN-W2234-NCB-DIESEL-SHUNTER-SPARE-BODY-3-x-BLUE-GREY-PULLMAN-COACH-BODY-SHELL/273612347493?hash=item3fb4911865:g:iEgAAOSwKfFblEmA:rk:195:pf:0

 

Avoid the Graham Farish Pullmans for they are acetate and are very often warped as a result.

 

Have fun with that lot,

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

No! It's a glass roofed carriage, built to the limit of the loading gauge with - the important bit - the seats raised above a regular height centre walkway, for a better view. (The reduced occupancy would mean quite a fare supplement.)

Hi 34 ... B&D,

 

I like the sound of your idea but I have to say loose bricks in tunnel linings could be fun for all of the wrong reasons !

 

Gibbo.

[PhilJ W]

Hi Corbs,

 

The good thing about Pullman cars is that cutting and shutting is easy because the sides are flat. You could use the later Hornby versions as main line stock with the Wrenn ones for secondary services and perhaps use the Triang ones as suburban versions by working extra doors into the sides.

 

Spare brake ends could be shortened and put onto long wheel base goods wagon chassis, even four wheeled passenger stock.

 

There are loads of Wrenn, Triang and Hornby Pullman cars on eBay better still some may be had for quite cheap such as this little selection;

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triang-Pullman-Coaches/183597559783?hash=item2abf446fe7:g:eW0AAOSwK5tcCnD6:rk:192:pf:0

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-00-Pullman-Coaches-X-4-With-Missing-Weel-Bogies-Vgc/223287892243?hash=item33fcfed913:g:G08AAOSw87lcF00g:rk:194:pf:0

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WRENN-W2234-NCB-DIESEL-SHUNTER-SPARE-BODY-3-x-BLUE-GREY-PULLMAN-COACH-BODY-SHELL/273612347493?hash=item3fb4911865:g:iEgAAOSwKfFblEmA:rk:195:pf:0

 

Avoid the Graham Farish Pullmans for they are acetate and are very often warped as a result.

 

Have fun with that lot,

 

Gibbo.

The Triang Pullmans are the correct length for the two Metropolitan cars. Unfortunately the window size and spacing is completely wrong.