Please tell me about your experience with loft layouts

[Lacathedrale]

Hi all,

 

The more I keep considering my options for a larger layout, the more my loft appeals. It's got power, lighting, a proper floor with carpet and only two horizontal joists at waist height. It's a bit chilly now in the cold, but no more so than the garage would be (which is realistically the only other site for a large layout unless I want an out-and-back in my already somewhat-congested garden office). Both the garden office and the shed are at the other end of the garden, and I've found it quite a challenge to motivate myself to get down there in freezing rain and in the dark.

 

Other than the aforementioned susceptibility to the weather is the rather small hatch - I think I could get a 4' x 2' x 6" module up there in one go, but other than that it would have to be constructed in-situ.

 

I would be really interested to hear about the ergonomics of this - do you find yourself going up there to work on it? Or avoiding it in favour of a workbench? All things being equal would you have found somewhere to build it other than there? Is it made in order that it can be transported to another location (i.e. exhibition, livingroom, etc.) or permanently attached? 

 

All the best,

Edited January 28, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Andrew P]

My experience include a Wasp Nest, extreme Cold, extreme HOT, and a FIRE.

 

I was up in a Loft one day and smelt something funny, when I turned around the Florescent Light above the escape hatch was ON FIRE, there is only one way out. Next day I bought a Fire extinguisher.

 

Also dust and sawdust below whenever I came down.

 

Also some crack / lines on the Plasterboard ceilings below and board nails showing, so had to fill and hide them when we put the place on the market.

 

I now have a warm and insulated Shed, but it is only 3 paces from the Conservatory door, so I don't get to wet making a dash to it.

 

All the best Bill.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Andrew P

[rab]

Hi all,

 

The more I keep considering my options for a larger layout, the more my loft appeals. It's got power, lighting, a proper floor with carpet and only two horizontal joists at waist height. It's a bit chilly now in the cold, but no more so than the garage would be (which is realistically the only other site for a large layout unless I want an out-and-back in my already somewhat-congested garden office). Both the garden office and the shed are at the other end of the garden, and I've found it quite a challenge to motivate myself to get down there in freezing rain and in the dark.

 

Other than the aforementioned susceptibility to the weather is the rather small hatch - I think I could get a 4' x 2' x 6" module up there in one go, but other than that it would have to be constructed in-situ.

 

I would be really interested to hear about the ergonomics of this - do you find yourself going up there to work on it? Or avoiding it in favour of a workbench? All things being equal would you have found somewhere to build it other than there? Is it made in order that it can be transported to another location (i.e. exhibition, livingroom, etc.) or permanently attached? 

 

All the best,

Ooh you've just taken the lid off

a can of big fat juicy worms!

[lezz01]

Hi there.

Lofts are very hot in the summer and very very cold in the winter. Its also a faff if you don't have a proper staircase and can also fall foul of building regs. I remember from somewhere that you need a certain proportion of window area...an article in the toddler many years ago I believe where some chap had to install windows and a staircase or it wouldn't comply with building regs. My ex brother in law built one in his loft and it had dreadful problems with expansion of the rails. You really need to insulate it to help with the swings in temp.

Regards Lez.Z.    

[Andrew P]

Hi there.

Lofts are very hot in the summer and very very cold in the winter. Its also a faff if you don't have a proper staircase and can also fall foul of building regs. I remember from somewhere that you need a certain proportion of window area...an article in the toddler many years ago I believe where some chap had to install windows and a staircase or it wouldn't comply with building regs. My ex brother in law built one in his loft and it had dreadful problems with expansion of the rails. You really need to insulate it to help with the swings in temp.

Regards Lez.Z.    

IF, it doesn't comply with Building Regs, would it affect the House Insurance, especially if there were to be a Fire?

[Lacathedrale]

Gosh, maybe too much of a bother - but on the other hand how will i deal with temperature fluctations in an uninsulated, unheated garage?  The garage is a 6m x 5m x 3m quadrilateral so in theory perfect for railways, but it'll set me back a couple of grand to get it to a workable state (currently it's just plain concrete block construction, concrete floor, leaking roof, etc.).  

 

Strangely the loft has actually got windows already, pics here: https://imgur.com/QhicrSn - I would in theory build the modules in the garage, lay the track and test/etc. in the garden studio and then schlep them up into the house and through the hatch, whereupon they'd be bolted together for actual use. Am I making things too complicated?

[NittenDormer]

Everyone will have their own opinion, but I opted for the garage rather than attic for ease of access, and because I would be tramping about above my sleeping children, whereas in the garage I can use power tools with impunity. In terms of temperature etc, the garage is still freezing and dusty, it isn't lined or insulated. I haven't laid any track yet, so I don't know about expansion issues.

[Andrew P]

Gosh, maybe too much of a bother - but on the other hand how will i deal with temperature fluctations in an uninsulated, unheated garage?  The garage is a 6m x 5m x 3m quadrilateral so in theory perfect for railways, but it'll set me back a couple of grand to get it to a workable state (currently it's just plain concrete block construction, concrete floor, leaking roof, etc.).  

 

Strangely the loft has actually got windows already, pics here: https://imgur.com/QhicrSn - I would in theory build the modules in the garage, lay the track and test/etc. in the garden studio and then schlep them up into the house and through the hatch, whereupon they'd be bolted together for actual use. Am I making things too complicated?

Your Garage sounds like the one I inherited when I move here, except the base of mine had broken it's back and so the Garage looked more like the Leaning Tower of Piza. I'm not sure Pre cast Concrete Garages can be properly insulated etc. Had you considered doing what I did, and biting the bullet and demolishing the Garage, (well actually I sold mine on e-bay for £100, Buyer dismantles and removes) and starting again?

[Andrew P]

Another tip if you can make the Garage waterproof, is to lay 2 inch Polystyrene on the Floor, then a layer of 3/4 Chipboard on top, I then laid a remnant of Lino on top of that so that the feet stayed warm. I also use the Halfords interlocking Rubber Floor Mats in the walking area in my Shed.

[Lacathedrale]

Unfortunately garage repairs have to go behind repainting the house (we've recently moved in), replacing the bathroom and boiler, etc. etc. - hence this idea of a loft site being a potentially good one. I certainly don't like the idea of having to build in massive expansion gaps, though!

 

I wonder how much layout I could fit on 8' or 10' (to fit on a shelf in my office or studio respectively)? There wouldn't be much in the way of operation but it would be 'here' as opposed to 'all the way out there', and a shelf underneath could hold the staging or scenic extension boards.  The reason I say that, is the longest dimension for my livingroom is 22' and that 'straight line' is basically never used, so I could in theory get SWMBO's permission to lay it up for a "proper" operating session from time to time. Also, easy access to the patio in better weather. 

[TerrySVR]

We bought our house over 30 years ago mainly because it had huge loft obviously a railway room but only advice I would share would be have it converted properly so you don't have the heat in summer and cold in winter.

 

Nice quiet me space.

[Andrew P]

Unfortunately garage repairs have to go behind repainting the house (we've recently moved in), replacing the bathroom and boiler, etc. etc. - hence this idea of a loft site being a potentially good one. I certainly don't like the idea of having to build in massive expansion gaps, though!

 

I wonder how much layout I could fit on 8' or 10' (to fit on a shelf in my office or studio respectively)? There wouldn't be much in the way of operation but it would be 'here' as opposed to 'all the way out there', and a shelf underneath could hold the staging or scenic extension boards.  The reason I say that, is the longest dimension for my livingroom is 22' and that 'straight line' is basically never used, so I could in theory get SWMBO's permission to lay it up for a "proper" operating session from time to time. Also, easy access to the patio in better weather. 

O.K. Here's a silly idea, If your thinking 22ft end to end in the Lounge, why not do end to end in your Office as a ''U'' shape, with the corner sections interchangeable for longer strait sections, so ''U'' shape in your office, strait at a show or in the Lounge.

[Lacathedrale]

That was the general thought for a 2mmFS layout for the studio, but with a minimum radius of 2'6" or so it meant a significant portion of the layout would exist in these transient bridge sections, and having to hand lay all the track meant it wasn't quite as simple as tacking down some flex! I reckon if the visible section of the layout can incorporate enough length of headshunts/etc. to do an inglenook, pose some locomotives, etc. then it would be fine almost as a semi-static display in between 'getting the trains out to play' in the living room. 

 

Thank you kindly for your thoughts

[ColinK]

In our previous house we had the loft professionally converted into my railway room. In practice having to open the hatch and close it every time was a pain, plus when the access ladder was down, it was an annoying obstruction. Getting the layout out for exhibitions and back in afterwards needed two people and was a pain too. The lighting on the layout wasn’t good either. Hence the railway room was little used and I did very little modelling.

 

In our current house we had the loft converted too, this time The plan was for it to be the railway room, but instead we use it as our bedroom with the railway having front downstairs room. This works really well (except the central lighting means working in your shadow). I can easily nip in and do just a few minutes modelling, indeed tonight I painted some model gutters between getting home from work and our evening meal.

 

So, if your loft has a proper staircase you’ll probably be fine, if it a case of opening the hatch and using a ladder, you may struggle.

[Lacathedrale]

That's exactly what I mean - it is indeed a hatch with a concertina ladder. 

 

Now I just need to figure a way that I can get the whole visible section of a layout into 8' in O-gauge. 

[RFS]

I converted my loft into a dedicated railway room using a firm that specialises in converting trussed lofts.  Basically I turned this

 

 

Into this

 

 

I justified it on the basis that the improvement in the value of the house, plus the subsequent rises in house prices in the years since, have made it a better investment than leaving the money in a savings account. 

 

I now have a warm room with a reasonable headroom (just over 6ft in the centre - fine for me), plus it's far more secure than an outbuilding. The only issue I've had is preventing it being used as storage for non-railway items - ie the sort of stuff that ends up in lofts anyway!

Edited January 28, 2018 by RFS

[Bergmann]

When we planned our house in 1974, we wanted to build an angular bungalow with a flat roof. The house had to be built with basement and there was a hobby room for me. After many considerations, we had submitted a draft to the building office which we liked. Only it was promoted that we would have to build a normal roof with bricks. So it came that we also constructed a hipped roof above everything, which even enabled the development of another apartment. It would also equal a normal stairs planned up there only there was only a hallway with 3 doors, which complete the empty rooms behind it. Since I had built a lot on our house myself, one room served as a workshop and another as a warehouse. Of course no room isolated and heated. So I tinkered on my N-Bahn in the basement in a room with heating and the very rough and dirty work such as welding and sawing wood for example in the attic. Unfortunately, the basement of our house on the slope, flooded 3 times by heavy rain and I lost it by my N-Bahn. Only one LGB train had survived the flood in the basement. So I first isolated the attic and moved with the workshop into the dry, isolated room under the roof, which also has no heating to this day. My eldest daughter grew up and she wanted a bigger room. So I isolated another room under the roof built a beautiful large skylight and heating. Also the further ground would be isolated, received a roof window, this time however also a heating. This space I finished as a plant room for my LGB modular system, with whose construction I had already begun in 1977. Children grow up and move out and I made an office out of my daughter's room where I worked 6 years until retirement. Today this is my hobby office in which my PC etc. is. That 's how I feel about the hobby room, but I still have not enough time in retirement. Because there are still children and grandchildren and after all 3 dogs but everything makes me happy.

[LBRJ]

Lofts are ok for storing things in. Thats the sum total of my views on lofts, in condensed form.

[teaky]

I guess if you've only just moved in then there are probably other priorities for what to spend money on first.  The subject of lofts has come up a number of times on RMweb and, as rab says, it's a can of worms.  My preference, budget permitting, would always be to opt for a proper conversion which complies with Building Regulations and adds to the value of your property.  You can opt for a professional conversion like RFS' smart example above or do it yourself which happens to be what I am currently up to (see link below if you're interested).

Edited January 29, 2018 by teaky

[Bergmann]

Here as a supplement to my contribution still some pictures of my hobby room under the roof.

 

 

 

 

 

[Legend]

I've had my layout up the loft for 25 years . It does suffer from extremes of hot and cold , which for me means its too easy just to sit downstairs in the warmth watching layouts on YouTube instead . That said it has been very successful for me . I do enjoy operating it , it doesn't seem to need a lot of cleaning , but I do have two HF track cleaners ( I'm firmly DC) . I'm only an occasional user , maybe 2-3hours a week.  Some of my boards have warped slightly over time but that was my own fault because I didn't put in as much cross bracing as I should have  and really to correct this now would be an absolute pain .

 

I have a fluorescent light but did not install mains wiring . the whole thing runs from an extension run from the hall the cable coming down the access hatch . While that may seem pretty rudimentary it does mean that I can't leave anything on by mistake as I have to take the plug out to close the hatch when finished!

 

The family joke that I'll not be able to get up there much longer . They jest , hopefully I've got a bit to go yet , but that could be a factor in years to come . That being the case I've got my home study which is a converted garage (integral to the house). It was originally a bedroom . once I retire that's probably where the next layout will be.

[Joseph_Pestell]

If you really must use the loft, only do it after taking advice from someone who knows about building. Most just are not fit for that purpose. Note Andy P's problems with the ceilings below.

 

And definitely only for fixed layouts. Even with a staircase in place, moving layout modules up and down is a pita.

[Andrew P]

Here's another idea, Have you got room in the Drive or by demolishing the old Garage for a Touring Caravan, I've seen them used many times in Mag's and you can pick an old one of a decent size very cheaply, £200 to £400 ish.

[chris p bacon]

Unfortunately garage repairs have to go behind repainting the house (we've recently moved in), replacing the bathroom and boiler, etc. etc. - hence this idea of a loft site being a potentially good one. I certainly don't like the idea of having to build in massive expansion gaps, though!

 

 

If you've only just moved in, I'm intrigued as to how the loft was sold as part of the house ? 

 

Looking at the pictures it does not in anyway conform to building regs, and I suspect the floor is just laid on the original ceiling joists, also with what looks like hardboard on the underside of the joists I doubt the underside of the roof tiles are vented. What did your house survey say about it ?

 

There are lots of threads here about lofts with Teaky's being a good example of what to do.  As a carpenter/House builder my thoughts are that unless they are converted correctly and covered by building regs so they become an integral part of the house (which means covered by your insurance in case of fire etc) then they are just the void between the upstairs ceiling and the underside of the roof, with at best a xmas tree and a couple of suitcases in them.

 

Personally I would look at an insulated shed/garage if there is insufficient room in the house, this is a cheaper option than a loft conversion.

Edited January 29, 2018 by chris p bacon

[LNER4479]

20+ years of being in the loft with layout depicted. Encountered most of issues highlighted but still managed to build a run a railway reasonably successfully. A couple of points (building on what others have said):

 

I built it all in situ, piece by piece - a would agree that the modular approach is a PITA

 

The loft depicted was unconverted, uninsulated, etc. Such a space is legally regarded as a storage space only and not suitable for human habitation. The other option, as depicted by others, is a conversion to latest building regs standards. I had this done at another house, very similar to those shown. Very enlightening experience, as at least one cowboy offered to do the work at a cut down price which would have not been compliant and would probably have caused the roof to collapse (eventually). Fortunately, I was sufficiently suspicious to check it all out and I sent him on his way. There is no halfway house - a loft is either a storage space or is a fully, functioning additional room in the house, with fixed staircase, linked smoke alarms and an alternative escape window.

 

My conversion cost @£10k and that was 15 years ago. How does the cost of your garage repairs and upgrade compare?

Edited January 29, 2018 by LNER4479