Far North Line Modelling - Sutherland Landscape & Buildings

[Marly51]

Working on two layouts in N Gauge based on Sutherland 1930s - 1940s. Currently experimenting with various scratchbuilding techniques for the 2mm scale buildings, but mainly card and paper at present. Trees feature in both layouts and I have been checking out various topics on the subject in RMWeb Forum. My first attempt is similar to http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117427-the-tree-modeller/?hl=trees having an endless supply of dried twigs and roots, which will need to be treated to ensure they last. There is the question about realistic height of trees as many commercial trees are often under scale. My specimens are a bit generic but should be OK as a group, once the trunks have been bedded into the landscape and the colouring modified to resemble the more muted tones of the landscape in Sutherland. I have constructed non-railway models, in the past, with some organic materials and they are still intact without evidence (yet) of insect attack or deterioration. The station building is card with commercial brick and stone papers. I hope to create some texture paper of my own from photographs of the actual stone and brick finishes in subsequent buildings.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Marly51

[Daddyman]

Very nice and an interesting area to model. Are you aware of Gordon Gravett's books on trees? They're published by Wild Swan. 

 

There are also some suggestions for good propriety trees here - I wasn't aware such things existed - post number 32: . 

also http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129453-kinlochmore-%E2%80%93-west-highland-4mm-p4/page-2 

 

I wonder if at the moment your trees are too tall? I can't find any pictures of trees whose lowest branches are above the height of a building - but it's hard to tell, seeing your models in isolation like that.  

[37Oban]

Working on two layouts in N Gauge based on Sutherland 1930s - 1940s. Currently experimenting with various scratchbuilding techniques for the 2mm scale buildings, but mainly card and paper at present. Trees feature in both layouts and I have been checking out various topics on the subject in RMWeb Forum. My first attempt is similar to http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117427-the-tree-modeller/?hl=trees having an endless supply of dried twigs and roots, which will need to be treated to ensure they last. There is the question about realistic height of trees as many commercial trees are often under scale. My specimens are a bit generic but should be OK as a group, once the trunks have been bedded into the landscape and the colouring modified to resemble the more muted tones of the landscape in Sutherland. I have constructed non-railway models, in the past, with some organic materials and they are still intact without evidence (yet) of insect attack or deterioration. The station building is card with commercial brick and stone papers. I hope to create some texture paper of my own from photographs of the actual stone and brick finishes in subsequent buildings.

Hi, at last, some-one who agrees with me about the height of commercially available trees, no matter what scale they are modelled in!

Of course, it depends on the conditions the trees are growing in, but Scots Pine and oak can reach 115ft, sycamore and birch 100ft, larch 130ft, sitka spruce 165ft and Douglas Fir 200ft!  Even the humble rowan makes 50ft and holly 65ft!

If you use commercially available trees then look more at those available for 4mm otherwise make your own.  That way you'll know they're right!

 

Roja

Edited January 30, 2018 by 37Oban

[justin1985]

These look good, and it sounds like a very interesting project! But I'd agree with Daddyman that while trees should be a lot taller than we often see them modelled, they seldom have such a long bare section of trunk and a canopy that starts so high up. I'd also associate the upward curving branches with smaller trees and branches - larger trees tend to have branches that are closer to horizontal.

 

Scots Pine is the most obvious exception to this, in having tall bare sections before you reach the canopy. But the branches tend to be very much horizontal, or even downward sloping.

 

It might be worth looking for another source of armatures for larger trees, and using the plant that supplied those mainly for smaller ones?

 

Another recommendation for the Gordon Gravett's pair of books on modelling trees. The techniques are written for O gauge, but almost all can be adapted for N!

 

J

[Marly51]

Very nice and an interesting area to model. Are you aware of Gordon Gravett's books on trees? They're published by Wild Swan.

 

There are also some suggestions for good propriety trees here - I wasn't aware such things existed - post number 32: .

also http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129453-kinlochmore-–-west-highland-4mm-p4/page-2

 

I wonder if at the moment your trees are too tall? I can't find any pictures of trees whose lowest branches are above the height of a building - but it's hard to tell, seeing your models in isolation like that.

 

Thanks for your response. I have seen Gordon Gravett's book online, and think I may try and get a copy. These trees are very much a first attempt and delighted to receive such good feedback. I live in an old Highland crofthouse and we have a sycamore on a slope just below the house whose branches are above the roofline. But again it is a matter of scale and I do need to doctor these. I am multitasking on the various elements of the project and just need to stop and focus on each area a little more. There are some good examples of scrub birch, crack willow and Scots pine all around, so I have no excuse. Unfortunately the original woodland copse behind the old station building, being modelled, no longer exists as the land was acquired for a modern house. Height wise a good inch of the trunk will be bedded into the landscape, but I need to make more notes about canopy shape as well as the spread in relation to the height of the individual trees.

 

Marlyn

 

PS I see Kylestrome purchased his Scots pine trees from MBR Models and checked these online. Will keep experimenting with my basic materials, in the meantime.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Marly51

[Marly51]

Hi, at last, some-one who agrees with me about the height of commercially available trees, no matter what scale they are modelled in!

Of course, it depends on the conditions the trees are growing in, but Scots Pine and oak can reach 115ft, sycamore and birch 100ft, larch 130ft, sitka spruce 165ft and Douglas Fir 200ft!  Even the humble rowan makes 50ft and holly 65ft!

If you use commercially available trees then look more at those available for 4mm otherwise make your own.  That way you'll know they're right!

 

Roja

Thank you Roja - someone else suggested 4mm trees as a possibility too. Will persevere and post some more images.

 

Marlyn

[Marly51]

These look good, and it sounds like a very interesting project! But I'd agree with Daddyman that while trees should be a lot taller than we often see them modelled, they seldom have such a long bare section of trunk and a canopy that starts so high up. I'd also associate the upward curving branches with smaller trees and branches - larger trees tend to have branches that are closer to horizontal.

Scots Pine is the most obvious exception to this, in having tall bare sections before you reach the canopy. But the branches tend to be very much horizontal, or even downward sloping.

It might be worth looking for another source of armatures for larger trees, and using the plant that supplied those mainly for smaller ones?

Another recommendation for the Gordon Gravett's pair of books on modelling trees. The techniques are written for O gauge, but almost all can be adapted for N!

J

Hi Justin - I'm a canny Scotswoman, always looking for an inexpensive option for producing my models. As I mentioned to Daddyman, this is my first attempt and I shall see if I can adapt these. The trunk height will be greatly reduced, but I may still start afresh and try to take more care getting the trunk and branch skeleton proportions in scale before proceeding with foliage.

Appreciate all the advice - many thanks.

Marlyn

[sulzer27jd]

Looking at your trees in relation to the station buildings, I would suggest a reduction in total height and start the foliage much lower. When you study the landscape of Sutherland (and that varies because of its large area) many of the trees are planted deliberately to provide shelter. As you have them, the wind would simply whip through, past the trunks.

 

As a first 'port of call' I would suggest Google Maps and the exceptionally useful Streetview. Study the size and shape of the trees in the location that you wish to model, then try and replicate the general shape you see. Pay particular attention as many of our trees exhibit a clear 'lean', usually to the east, as the prevailing high winds come from the west. Over the years this causes a change in the tree shape.

 

I find it useful to start by modelling the basic shape as the tree would be without foliage. That is easily done if you photograph deciduous trees in winter. This will help get the proportions, overall shape and branch structure right before the foliage is applied.

 

John

[justin1985]

Hi Justin - I'm a canny Scotswoman, always looking for an inexpensive option for producing my models. As I mentioned to Daddyman, this is my first attempt and I shall see if I can adapt these. The trunk height will be greatly reduced, but I may still start afresh and try to take more care getting the trunk and branch skeleton proportions in scale before proceeding with foliage.

Appreciate all the advice - many thanks.

Marlyn

 

Nothing wrong with that at all! Wasn't suggesting you needed to go whole hog with the bundled wire method, but perhaps just try and find a different plant that branches in a different way as the source of your twigs. You could even take inspiration from the wire method and combine different twigs from different plants to get and get a fuller shape - cover the joins in a "trunk" coating of mixed Pollyfilla and PVA.  

 

I seem to remember a thread where a load of people tried to grow the "sea moss" "forest in a box" plant from seeds at home as a low cost source! I think it needed a greenhouse to be successful though. 

 

EDIT - found the thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71243-seafoam-im-growing-my-own/

Edited January 30, 2018 by justin1985

[Marly51]

Nothing wrong with that at all! Wasn't suggesting you needed to go whole hog with the bundled wire method, but perhaps just try and find a different plant that branches in a different way as the source of your twigs. You could even take inspiration from the wire method and combine different twigs from different plants to get and get a fuller shape - cover the joins in a "trunk" coating of mixed Pollyfilla and PVA.  

 

I seem to remember a thread where a load of people tried to grow the "sea moss" "forest in a box" plant from seeds at home as a low cost source! I think it needed a greenhouse to be successful though. 

 

EDIT - found the thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71243-seafoam-im-growing-my-own/

I am happy to play around until I get a reasonable representation for the wooded areas on my layouts. Not afraid to go back to the drawing board, but usually find there is often a compromise. Don't think I'll go as far as growing my own sea moss though, enough projects on the go! There is such a wealth of experience on this forum - it's great! Good luck with your modelling.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi Marty,

 

I don't think your trees are too tall - just not the right sort of tree!

 

Have a look at this - just an example

 

 

or

 

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/4688/

 

or

 

https://www.workaway.info/143157843444-en.html

 

Should give some ideas

 

Thanks

[sulzer27jd]

Hi Marty,

 

I don't think your trees are too tall - just not the right sort of tree!

 

Have a look at this - just an example

 

 

Not exactly Sutherland though. The OP was specific and the area in question is a radically different landscape from the West Highlands.

[benachie]

I also live where I can access any amount of lichen, twigs etc. and I have tried growing sea-moss too but ended up thinking that various Chinese plastic jobs with extra foliage material added are as good as any and not too expensive.  e.g.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Green-Model-Trees-Train-Railway-Park-Street-Wargame-Diorama-Scenery-HO-N/281910567270?epid=1288799722&hash=item41a32de166:g:aAYAAOSwR2RaOosQ

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5x-Pine-Trees-Model-for-Wargames-Farm-Train-Railway-Scenery-Landscape-1-50-1-75/360784850698?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3Da983ecb7efa04c0386466cdacf0daa4a%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D8%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D201663439493%26itm%3D360784850698&_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25Pcs-Green-Trees-Model-Train-Railway-Diorama-Wargame-Park-Scenery-00-1-75-Scale/331610078474?epid=607908932&hash=item4d35803d0a:g:uFAAAOSw~gRVrJad

 

Various scales/sizes available.

 

Alan

Edited January 30, 2018 by benachie

[Marly51]

Hi Marty,

 

I don't think your trees are too tall - just not the right sort of tree!

 

Have a look at this - just an example

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWBPyJTYSFY

 

or

 

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/4688/

 

or

 

https://www.workaway.info/143157843444-en.html

 

Should give some ideas

 

Thanks

You’re right about species of trees - I just went with the flow of the material I had collected, without direct reference to structure of different local species. Have found some photographs I took about 15 years ago - relatively near the project location and at the same height above sea level. Will scan a couple and post later. It’s a fascinating subject. Thanks for all your suggestions.

 

Marlyn

[Marly51]

Looking at your trees in relation to the station buildings, I would suggest a reduction in total height and start the foliage much lower. When you study the landscape of Sutherland (and that varies because of its large area) many of the trees are planted deliberately to provide shelter. As you have them, the wind would simply whip through, past the trunks.

 

As a first 'port of call' I would suggest Google Maps and the exceptionally useful Streetview. Study the size and shape of the trees in the location that you wish to model, then try and replicate the general shape you see. Pay particular attention as many of our trees exhibit a clear 'lean', usually to the east, as the prevailing high winds come from the west. Over the years this causes a change in the tree shape.

 

I find it useful to start by modelling the basic shape as the tree would be without foliage. That is easily done if you photograph deciduous trees in winter. This will help get the proportions, overall shape and branch structure right before the foliage is applied.

 

John

Agree with you totally, John. My first shot at using the twig armatures, polyster fibre and various foam and flock scatters has given me a feel for the materials. Think I will draw a quick diagram for myself with buildings and tree structures drawn to scale as a guide. Many thanks for the feedback.

 

Marlyn

[Marly51]

I also live where I can access any amount of lichen, twigs etc. and I have tried growing sea-moss too but ended up thinking that various Chinese plastic jobs with extra foliage material added are as good as any and not too expensive.  e.g.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Green-Model-Trees-Train-Railway-Park-Street-Wargame-Diorama-Scenery-HO-N/281910567270?epid=1288799722&hash=item41a32de166:g:aAYAAOSwR2RaOosQ

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5x-Pine-Trees-Model-for-Wargames-Farm-Train-Railway-Scenery-Landscape-1-50-1-75/360784850698?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3Da983ecb7efa04c0386466cdacf0daa4a%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D8%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D201663439493%26itm%3D360784850698&_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25Pcs-Green-Trees-Model-Train-Railway-Diorama-Wargame-Park-Scenery-00-1-75-Scale/331610078474?epid=607908932&hash=item4d35803d0a:g:uFAAAOSw~gRVrJad

 

Various scales/sizes available.

 

Alan

Thanks Alan - it is always good to keep an eye on what is available commercially and decide which aspects of modelling I want to focus my time on. I love the detail in scratchbuilding structures and happy to spend a bit of time trying to get the atmosphere of the landscape just about right, but I definitely leave locomotive scratchbuild and small scale engineering to the folk who have those specialist skills.

 

Marlyn

[37Oban]

You’re right about species of trees - I just went with the flow of the material I had collected, without direct reference to structure of different local species. Have found some photographs I took about 15 years ago - relatively near the project location and at the same height above sea level. Will scan a couple and post later. It’s a fascinating subject. Thanks for all your suggestions.

 

Marlyn

Hi again,

 

there are some good views of trees around Forsinard Station through the years in google images that may provide inspiration.

 

Roja

[Marly51]

OK - I’m determined to give this another go. I’ve actually found some decent photos of Scots pine (which would be the tallest trees on the layout) - taken in the locality about 15 years ago!

 

Based on the ‘passing place’ sign this specimen is about 46ft high.

 

This is one of the oldest Scots pines on this stretch of road, but I would need to photograph it again with a survey pole or kind assistant to help with estimating the height.

 

I can still use some of the smaller trees and will add some extra detail and prune the larger ones for a 4mm scale project.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Marly51

[benachie]

This link tells us that Scots pine trees in Scotland grow up to about 65' though, of course, can be much less locally.   I'm guessing wind exposure in Sutherland might limit growth.

https://treesforlife.org.uk/forest/scots-pine/

 

Alan

[Marly51]

This link tells us that Scots pine trees in Scotland grow up to about 65' though, of course, can be much less locally.   I'm guessing wind exposure in Sutherland might limit growth.

https://treesforlife.org.uk/forest/scots-pine/

 

Alan

The older Scots pine in the second photograph is probably taller, Alan. I know one of the local foresters for Forestry Commission - might corner him and see if they have any statistics for the area which would be helpful. FC has changed its practice from planting large swathes of lodgepole pine, Norwegian spruce etc to a more diverse scheme with mixed indigenous species.

 

Marlyn

[Marly51]

Well I’ve been checking a few ‘how-to’ videos on YouTube and decided I would splash out on the two Gordon Gravett books. These are excellent. I am working to a deadline on two projects, so may not manage to produce all the trees required using Gordon’s precise techniques, but will certainly have a go while paint, glue, scenery is drying!

 

 

This is an ideal time of year, up here, to take photographs of the different trees, to get a silhouette of the basic tree structure. I need to go back later and identify some of the species from their leaves.

[PaulS]

Have only just caught up with this thread, which is very interesting to me as we have spent a week in Sutherland every year for the past decade! Sutherland is a remarkably treeless area, with few areas with even medium-sized trees, once you get away from towns. You can easily walk five miles cross-country and not see a tree more than a few feet high!

 

Are you basing your layout on a real location? That would certainly help pin down what is appropriate.

[Marly51]

Have only just caught up with this thread, which is very interesting to me as we have spent a week in Sutherland every year for the past decade! Sutherland is a remarkably treeless area, with few areas with even medium-sized trees, once you get away from towns. You can easily walk five miles cross-country and not see a tree more than a few feet high!

Are you basing your layout on a real location? That would certainly help pin down what is appropriate.

Hi Paul,

The two locations I am currently modelling are at the southern end of the county where there are plenty of trees, but the landscape is very rocky with a minimal soil cover. Since the first efforts at the beginning of my topic I have decided to adapt these for a 4mm scale project and am currently modelling smaller trees for the N gauge layouts, using a combination of natural materials and wire. Will post more images shortly. I am finding this forum a great help, but also enjoying learning about all aspects of railway modelling (even through the mistakes I make along the way).

Marlyn

[PaulS]

Look forward to seeing the pictures!

Edited February 16, 2018 by PaulS

[Daddyman]

There's an article on modelling budget trees in the current issue of the Model Railway Journal.