Cobalt Turnout Motor Problems

[orford]

Hi all,

 

I am wondering whether anyone else has the same persistent problems with Cobalt point motors?

 

I have about 30 of them, all 'first generation' Cobalt motors purchased around 6-7 years ago not that long after they were introduced.  All are operated using 'DC'.

 

12 were exchanged by DCC Concepts 5+ years ago not long after purchase under their 'lifetime warranty', due to various malfunctions - mostly noisy 'clicking' or running exceptionally slowly.

 

A further 12 were subsequently sent back to Australia (this was in the days before they had a UK outlet in Skipton) for the same reasons, where they were apparently 'refurbished'.

 

I am STILL getting the same problems on various motors, including on at least 2 of the 'refurbished' motors which DCC Concepts returned marked as 'good'.

 

Here is what happens (you need the sound turned on).......

 

https://youtu.be/Q0govasK1kE

 

The sheer cacophony when four or five Cobalts are simultaneously making this continual racket makes the layout frankly inoperable and I am forever having to change motors on the layout, involving scrambling on my back on the floor working above my head (it's a permanent layout - and I am 66 with heart problems) ...which is a nightmare.

 

This is a problem which has been on-going now for 6 years on and off, regardless of having Cobalts exchanged, refurbished, or whatever. It is driving me absolutely insane.

 

(For the record, the motors are operated on DC using the voltage and indeed, the regulated power pack actually recommended to me personally by Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts).

 

I will be the first to acknowledge that when performing as intended, these Cobalt turnout motors are excellent - but why oh why do so many keep developing this horrendous 'clicking' issue?

These motors are far from cheap - about 600 quid's worth in my case, I certainly cannot afford to replace them all....and this is a long-standing and on-going problem.

 

Any help or advice would be most gratefully received.  Thanks.

 

Don Mason.

 

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Without taking one to bits it is difficult to say exactly what the fault is but it sound like a gear has failed inside the motor and the motor is turning until it find a spot on the gear wheel that has some teeth.

 

I am working on the principle that I have had other motor assemblies fail in that way (not Cobalt or model railway motors), and the symptoms were very similar.

 

Either take one apart to see what the issue is, or ask for replacements (again) and get them to tell you what the fault is.

[Brian]

I would contact the UK DCC Concepts and seek a return under the Lifetime warranty.

[blueeighties]

The guys at DCC Concepts care about the products....You have no doubt already done so, but have a further chat with them explaining the issue in detail, I'm sure they will be happy to investigate and rectify.

[2ManySpams]

We had exactly the same problem with the DC Concepts point motors on Black Country Blues. A fair few failures and then the clicking noise. Our electrical expert Geoff eventually resolved the problem. I don't recall what the issue was (voltage?) but I've asked him for his solution.

[bgman]

About a year or so ago ( can't remember exactly ) I had a box of 12 Cobalt motors a few of which had a similar problem. 

I sent an e-mail to the company when they were based in Australia advising of the problem. Apparently there were some faulty manufacturing problems which are now addressed and I have new motors working satisfactorily.

 

Within 24 hours I had a positive response and was sent three new replacement motors direct from their factory which arrived here in the UK about 8 days later.

 

I asked what should be done with the faulty motors and was told to keep them, I had an attachment on a return e-mail which I have posted below.

 

Its a work around for motors if you are willing to open then up and make the alterations, however I was advised that it would be at my own risk and obviously invalidate any warranty.

 

 

 

Hope this is of some use to anyone facing the same problem.

 

Usual disclaimer etc.

 

Grahame

Edited February 1, 2018 by bgman

[Anthony566]

Hi all,

 

I am wondering whether anyone else has the same persistent problems with Cobalt point motors?

 

I have about 30 of them, all 'first generation' Cobalt motors purchased around 6-7 years ago not that long after they were introduced.  All are operated using 'DC'.

 

12 were exchanged by DCC Concepts 5+ years ago not long after purchase under their 'lifetime warranty', due to various malfunctions - mostly noisy 'clicking' or running exceptionally slowly.

 

A further 12 were subsequently sent back to Australia (this was in the days before they had a UK outlet in Skipton) for the same reasons, where they were apparently 'refurbished'.

 

I am STILL getting the same problems on various motors, including on at least 2 of the 'refurbished' motors which DCC Concepts returned marked as 'good'.

 

Here is what happens (you need the sound turned on).......

 

https://youtu.be/Q0govasK1kE

 

The sheer cacophony when four or five Cobalts are simultaneously making this continual racket makes the layout frankly inoperable and I am forever having to change motors on the layout, involving scrambling on my back on the floor working above my head (it's a permanent layout - and I am 66 with heart problems) ...which is a nightmare.

 

This is a problem which has been on-going now for 6 years on and off, regardless of having Cobalts exchanged, refurbished, or whatever. It is driving me absolutely insane.

 

(For the record, the motors are operated on DC using the voltage and indeed, the regulated power pack actually recommended to me personally by Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts).

 

I will be the first to acknowledge that when performing as intended, these Cobalt turnout motors are excellent - but why oh why do so many keep developing this horrendous 'clicking' issue?

These motors are far from cheap - about 600 quid's worth in my case, I certainly cannot afford to replace them all....and this is a long-standing and on-going problem.

 

Any help or advice would be most gratefully received.  Thanks.

 

Don Mason.

Hi Don,

 

What voltage are you running your motors on ?

[10000]

Lifetime warranty they may have but I'll be looking to replace with Tortoise in future when they fail because I've had enough of them. I only have 18 so not as much investment as you.

I started with the original motors operating from their ( I think the number is correct) AD4 decoder boards. One board went back because one decoder exploded. 2 motors were replaced within the first 12 months. One for losing power, it was attempting to run but not enough power to operate the point. The other for the clicking noise. 

 

A third was then replaced again for the clicking.

 

I have since had another fail with more like banging than clicking when powered up and operated. That was replaced with one of the new motors for me to find that they don't work on the old decoder boards so I had to buy one of the decoders to fit on that motor. 

 

That motor has now started the clicking (banging)

 

At 67 years old I can do without having to get under the baseboard to keep replacing them.

[WIMorrison]

I am starting to worry about committing to these motors now - will have 26 of them.

[orford]

Hi Don,

 

What voltage are you running your motors on ?

 

Hi Anthony.  9 volts regulated DC, as advised personally by Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts. I even lashed out on the specific power packs which he personally recommended.

Edited February 2, 2018 by orford

[Anthony566]

Hi Don, is this one of the motors you have already had fixed ? Or is this one that has just started clicking ?

 

Also can I ask you which power supply you are using ?

Hi Don, is this one of the motors you have already had fixed ? Or is this one that has just started clicking ?

 

Also can I ask you which power supply you are using ?

[55020]

Hi Don,

 

It's a bit hard to tell what's going on with your video as you obviously command the point to throw one way and then the other.  The clicking happens once the switch blade hits right.  What is obvious is that other than the noise, the motor is working correctly in that is throwing the point fully in both directions.  It also doesn't appear to be slipping.

 

I'm wondering if you haven't set up the throw correctly, in that the switch blades move smoothly across then can't move any further but the motor is still active.  In this case the internal mechanism will "slip" and clicking will be evident.

 

The amount of throw is reduced by raising the "fulcrum bar" on the side of the motor.

 

Can you post another video just showing the point operating in one direction only?

 

 

Steve

[orford]

Hi Don, is this one of the motors you have already had fixed ? Or is this one that has just started clicking ?

 

Also can I ask you which power supply you are using ?

Hi Don, is this one of the motors you have already had fixed ? Or is this one that has just started clicking ?

 

Also can I ask you which power supply you are using ?

 

This particular one is one which went back to Oz and which was 'refurbished'....although I have others which click which are still in original (ie unrefurbished) condition.

 

The power pack is a regulated pure DC power pack and is one personally recommended to me by Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts when these problems originally surfaced some 5-6 years ago. I have no idea of the make now but I do recall that it was pretty expensive compared to your average 'wall-wart'. It has separate little plugs which go into the side to change the output voltage. Here's a few pictures.

[orford]

Hi Don,

 

It's a bit hard to tell what's going on with your video as you obviously command the point to throw one way and then the other.  The clicking happens once the switch blade hits right.  What is obvious is that other than the noise, the motor is working correctly in that is throwing the point fully in both directions.  It also doesn't appear to be slipping.

 

I'm wondering if you haven't set up the throw correctly, in that the switch blades move smoothly across then can't move any further but the motor is still active.  In this case the internal mechanism will "slip" and clicking will be evident.

 

The amount of throw is reduced by raising the "fulcrum bar" on the side of the motor.

 

Can you post another video just showing the point operating in one direction only?

 

 

Steve

 

Steve - Having used 30 of these things over the last 6 years or so I do know that they are properly adjusted and am fully aware of the purpose of the fulcum bar. It's definitely not anything to do with that.

 

These things seem to start clicking at apparent random and with no warning. Sometimes after performing perfectly for years and sometimes almost from 'day one'.  I even have some which stopped clicking and behaved perfectly again - and then resumed clicking without warning.

 

I have others which have suddenly started to throw exceedingly slowly - like taking a full 60 seconds or more to throw - whilst others on the same circuit continue to work perfectly. Another mystery.

 

I would reiterate at this point what I said in my original question - These are all from the very batch of Cobalts which DCC Concepts made, when they were first introduced.  I have 6 more of them bought (and presumably therefore manufactured) made a year or two later and have no problems whatsoever with any of those ones. Neither do I have problems with the 12 from the original purchase which DCC Concepts replaced completely under warranty - without question..........I am only having these problems with 12 Cobalts which were later 'refurbished' by them (rather than being replaced), or those remaining few from the first batch which still remain in original condition. This suggests to me that problems with the initial batches were subsequently sorted - but I still can't afford to replace the 12 or so I still have and which are the ones giving the most problems.

Edited February 2, 2018 by orford

[PMP99]

About 6 years ago when I was installing Tortoise motors for my points, I bought a few of the Cobalts on the basis that they were more compact and would fit better in one particular area of the layout. From new none of them functioned well with the same loud clicking, gears disengaging etc...

 

As I had actually purchased them some time earlier I no longer had the receipts and I wasn't aware at the time of the 'lifetime guarantee'.

 

I therefore put them in the bin and standardised on Tortoise motors all round. 

 

Giving that problems still seem to be occuring, I'm glad I did.

 

Graham

[orford]

Here's a few more notes in an attempt to clarify the situation:

 

I originally purchased 24 Cobalts (2 x 12 packs).

 

12 of these soon developed faults soon after purchase (mainly 'clicking' as per the video) and these were all completely replaced by DCC Concepts in Australia without question.  5 years later, these 12 all remain perfectly good.

 

Within a year, most of the other 12 originals developed similar problems and these (I think 8 from memory) were sent back to DCC Concepts in Australia. This time, they did not replace them - but 'refurbished' them and returned them to me, marked 'good'. Some of these are also now fine - but 4 of these have started clicking again.

 

About 2 years after the original purchase I bought 6 more (6-pack). These were also fine...and remain so.

 

So the faulty ones now are three of the four remaining originals which never went back for attention - and 4 of the refurbished ones.  So seven now faulty in total.

 

Hope that clarifies the situation a little better.

 

I am personally convinced that there was some inherent fault in the early production - because ALL of the faults are/were with the original 24 purchased.  'Replacements' and subsequent additional purchases are fine.  Those which are still playing up are either remaining originals or refurbished units.  I am unsure why the second batch returned to DCC Concepts were refurbished and not simply replaced like the first. Because I think that would have solved it and saved me years of subsequent hassle with them.

[orford]

About 6 years ago when I was installing Tortoise motors for my points, I bought a few of the Cobalts on the basis that they were more compact and would fit better in one particular area of the layout. From new none of them functioned well with the same loud clicking, gears disengaging etc...

 

As I had actually purchased them some time earlier I no longer had the receipts and I wasn't aware at the time of the 'lifetime guarantee'.

 

I therefore put them in the bin and standardised on Tortoise motors all round. 

 

Giving that problems still seem to be occuring, I'm glad I did.

 

Graham

 

To be honest Graham - I have seriously considered doing exactly the same thing except that I am now 66 and have recently been diagnosed with heart failure - which makes working whilst lying on the floor and reaching up under the (permanently installed) baseboards to install them very awkward indeed ....especially as I understand Tortoise need soldered connections (not easy to do in those circumstances compared with just 'plug in' wiring to Cobalts).  Also I have around £600.00 worth of these things in use which is a considerable sum to effectively condemn to the dustbin and replace.

 

But if I have to I will. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by orford

[St Enodoc]

To be honest Graham - I have seriously considered doing exactly the same thing except that I am now 66 and have recently been diagnosed with heart failure - which makes working whilst lying on the floor and reaching up under the (permanently installed) baseboards to install them very awkward indeed ....especially as I understand Tortoise need soldered connections (not easy to do in those circumstances compared with just 'plug in' wiring to Cobalts).  Also I have around £600.00 worth of these things in use which is a considerable sum to effectively condemn to the dustbin and replace.

 

But if I have to I will. 

I think that you are right with your earlier statement that there appear to be design and/or manufacturing issues with early Cobalts. My understanding is that these have been rectified in the newer machines - those that include "iP" in the designation.

 

If you haven't already done so, why not ask DCC Concepts if they can replace the defective machines with the later design? Even if they charge a part-exchange fee it should be a better deal than starting again from scratch.

 

No connection with DCC Concepts other than as a customer.

[RFS]

To be honest Graham - I have seriously considered doing exactly the same thing except that I am now 66 and have recently been diagnosed with heart failure - which makes working whilst lying on the floor and reaching up under the (permanently installed) baseboards to install them very awkward indeed ....especially as I understand Tortoise need soldered connections (not easy to do in those circumstances compared with just 'plug in' wiring to Cobalts).  Also I have around £600.00 worth of these things in use which is a considerable sum to effectively condemn to the dustbin and replace.

 

But if I have to I will. 

 

Although the Tortoise needs soldered connections it's easy to do on the work bench first.  I soldered 6-inch wires to the terminals needed (2 for operation, 3 for frog polarity switch) and then terminated these wires in a choc-bloc. Once fitted under the baseboard you have screw connections just like the Cobalts. I'm 72 and soldering under the baseboard is a complete no-no!

 

I moved to slow-motion motors just as Cobalts came out. I thought about them, but needed DCC control and, although DCC Concepts had recommended Lenz LS150s or NCE Switch-8s, this advice was soon withdrawn when people found these decoders would not operate the Cobalts reliably. Then reports of Cobalt unreliability started to surface so I steered clear. I'm using RR&Co Traincontroller for automation, and turnout reliability is absolutely essential in such an environment. 

 

Instead I invested in just over 60 Tortoises and 7 NCE Switch-8s and in the 5 years since I purchased them there's only been one failure, and that was just a polarity switch on one unit going dead in one direction. Easy enough just to use the other switch. And that failure could well have been my fault due to ballast and/or PVA getting into the mechanism through the tie-bar hole.  Very pleased I took this route. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by RFS

[55020]

Hi Don,

 

Thanks for reading my input and responding.  I agree that the original Cobalt motors do seem to have had a few issues, that appear to have been modified out over time, especially with the current range of "ip" motors.  I also have had issues with the original batch, with some clicking and some eventually refusing to operate.  The number falling in to this category is small, but probably reflects your experiences.

 

My comments were trying not to jump to a conclusion with regard to reliability, but to simply respond to the video.  Your reply shows I was off the mark!  Hopefully you didn't think I was being too critical.

 

As many others have suggested, I think an email to Richard at DCC Concepts might be an easy a hopefully fruitful way forward.

 

As something of an aside, I've been using Cobalts for many years and will continue to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

[orford]

Although the Tortoise needs soldered connections it's easy to do on the work bench first.  I soldered 6-inch wires to the terminals needed (2 for operation, 3 for frog polarity switch) and then terminated these wires in a choc-bloc. Once fitted under the baseboard you have screw connections just like the Cobalts. I'm 72 and soldering under the baseboard is a complete no-no!

 

I moved to slow-motion motors just as Cobalts came out. I thought about them, but needed DCC control and, although DCC Concepts had recommended Lenz LS150s or NCE Switch-8s, this advice was soon withdrawn when people found these decoders would not operate the Cobalts reliably. Then reports of Cobalt unreliability started to surface so I steered clear. I'm using RR&Co Traincontroller for automation, and turnout reliability is absolutely essential in such an environment. 

 

Instead I invested in just over 60 Tortoises and 7 NCE Switch-8s and in the 5 years since I purchased them there's only been one failure, and that was just a polarity switch on one unit going dead in one direction. Easy enough just to use the other switch. And that failure could well have been my fault due to ballast and/or PVA getting into the mechanism through the tie-bar hole.  Very pleased I took this route. 

 

Hmm - That's a good idea to save soldering upside down. Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't thought of it.

[orford]

Hi Don,

 

Thanks for reading my input and responding.  I agree that the original Cobalt motors do seem to have had a few issues, that appear to have been modified out over time, especially with the current range of "ip" motors.  I also have had issues with the original batch, with some clicking and some eventually refusing to operate.  The number falling in to this category is small, but probably reflects your experiences.

 

My comments were trying not to jump to a conclusion with regard to reliability, but to simply respond to the video.  Your reply shows I was off the mark!  Hopefully you didn't think I was being too critical.

 

As many others have suggested, I think an email to Richard at DCC Concepts might be an easy a hopefully fruitful way forward.

 

As something of an aside, I've been using Cobalts for many years and will continue to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

I would but I managed to lose his e-mail address and all of the 'contacts' on the web site now point to the Skipton UK address, where I don't know anybody.  Unless things have changed Richard is in Oz ???

[RFS]

I would but I managed to lose his e-mail address and all of the 'contacts' on the web site now point to the Skipton UK address, where I don't know anybody.  Unless things have changed Richard is in Oz ???

 

DCC Concepts, including Richard Johnson, have relocated to the UK - contact details here https://www.dccconcepts.com/contact-us/

[orford]

DCC Concepts, including Richard Johnson, have relocated to the UK - contact details here https://www.dccconcepts.com/contact-us/

 

I didn't know that thanks.

 

In the meantime, I have just received a message from DCC Concepts offering to look into this for me. So many thanks to them for that.  Hopefully we can get it sorted.

 

- Don

[PMP99]

To be honest Graham - I have seriously considered doing exactly the same thing except that I am now 66 and have recently been diagnosed with heart failure - which makes working whilst lying on the floor and reaching up under the (permanently installed) baseboards to install them very awkward indeed ....especially as I understand Tortoise need soldered connections (not easy to do in those circumstances compared with just 'plug in' wiring to Cobalts).  Also I have around £600.00 worth of these things in use which is a considerable sum to effectively condemn to the dustbin and replace.

 

But if I have to I will. 

Hi Orford,

 

Yes £600 is rather a large investment to completely replace.  Fortunately for me, if it can be called that, I was probably only scrapping about 10% of that!

 

Graham