Manning Wardle long boiler scratchbuild

[Barclay]

That's fantastic - thank you. Would like to see that model built, original cab or as she is now?

All power to those at the Foxfield for taking her on, although a long way from being operational again, sadly.

[PGH]

Would like to see that model built, original cab or as she is now?

 

So would I !  

 

It would have been (or maybe will be - who knows ?) built with the later cab.  I first saw it at Hafod Colliery, then several times at Gresford - a remarkable survivor.

[Barclay]

Now to the superstructure. The smokebox is a piece of brass tube, with a riveted 10 thou overlay soldered on. Can't resist popping the chimney on at this stage, not fixing it yet:

 

 

The chimney is  a Gibson product for a LMS 2-6-2T but I put it in the hand drill and 'turned' the shape slightly to represent the drawing as best as possible. For boiler fittings on industrial loco's I normally take the drawing to an exhibition to compare shapes with castings made for more mainstream loco's and then purchase a couple of likely examples, making the final choice later on and modifying if necessary. The front then added:

 

 

Now to the tank. We know its depth but little else, although we do know the type of shape that MW were using at this period. I started with the profile of the tank on 'The Welshman' from Don Townsley's drawing, although our tank is deeper. To keep the overall proportion about the same I have widened it a little, bearing in mind that MW tanks were quite narrow by comparison with those of other manufacturers. A plastic card template fitted to the structure was fettled until it seemed about right:

 

 

When I felt I was happy with it the plastic template was transferred to brass and two ends cut from 15 thou. A wrapper of annealed 10 thou was then formed around various rods etc until it fitted. A little work with emery paper has it looking reasonable but it may need refinement so hasn't been fixed yet. The bottom edge of the tank side is strengthened with the same square section brass tube as used for the valances.

 

 

The next picture shows it propped in position. The dome is from 247 I think, intended for an LNER A2/3 pacific.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ruston]

Nice work. Is the chimney a bought-in item, or did you turn it yourself?

[Regularity]

Nice work. Is the chimney a bought-in item, or did you turn it yourself?

  

The chimney is  a Gibson product for a LMS 2-6-2T but I put it in the hand drill and 'turned' the shape slightly to represent the drawing as best as possible.

 

[Barclay]

Nice work. Is the chimney a bought-in item, or did you turn it yourself?

Would that I had the skill or equipment. Just held a fine file against it whilst cranking furiously on the hand drill!

[avonside1563]

THE WELSHMAN at Gresford Colliery:

 

MW 1207 cab detail (1) © PGH.jpg

 

 

MW 1207 cab detail (2) © PGH.jpg

 

The injectors are inside the cab, fixed to the lower cab side sheets

 

I did start an 0 Scale model of THE WELSHMAN some years ago but only got as far as the wheels !

 

MW wheels © PGH.jpg

Liking the photos of the Welshman's cab, would it be possible for me to have a copy of them and any other shots of the loco you have for reference as we have her at Foxfield and she will be the subject of a long term restoration once we have done Ackton Hall and NSR No2.

[PGH]

Liking the photos of the Welshman's cab, would it be possible for me to have a copy of them and any other shots of the loco you have for reference as we have her at Foxfield and she will be the subject of a long term restoration once we have done Ackton Hall and NSR No2.

 

Yes, no problem.  Send me your Email address in a PM and I'll send them as a series of attachments.  The original scans from the negatives are approx 2Mb in size.  I took several photos during the 11 times I saw it in visits to Hafod and Gresford and I should be able to sort out reasonable RH and LH views of the whole loco.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by PGH

[Barclay]

Some fantastic detail shots there, but they have made me think twice about the shape of the tank. I think the demarcation between the side and the curve may be a little sharp on mine, so I'm going to try to re-profile it I think, or maybe just make a new one.....

 

For now though, the cab: Two pieces of brass were soldered together and the basic shape cut out with a piercing saw. Because of the low eaves there is very little 'meat' above the top of the cutout, so I soldered some wire across the back. I also left the bottom part uncut until I had soldered in temporary strengthening pieces across the opening:

 

 

 

The 'portholes' were initially small holes, opened up with a series of files until a sliver of brass tube just fit, then soldered in from the back.

 

Spectacles formed similarly. The front ones not too big because of the size of the tank and the restricted height. Also because of this the cab roof will have a very flat profile. 

 

 

 

Beading will follow, using similar contemporary loco's for guidance. 

 

 

[avonside1563]

Yes, no problem.  Send me your Email address in a PM and I'll send them as a series of attachments.  The original scans from the negatives are approx 2Mb in size.  I took several photos during the 11 times I saw it in visits to Hafod and Gresford and I should be able to sort out reasonable RH and LH views of the whole loco.

 

I took a further 5 detail shots and they may possibly be of interest for this topic - if not I'll happily delete them.

 

MW 1207 detail 1 © PGH.jpg

 

MW 1207 detail 2 © PGH.jpg

 

MW 1207 detail 3 © PGH.jpg

 

MW 1207 detail 4 © PGH.jpg

 

MW 1207 detail 5 © PGH.jpg

 

 

I understand that one of the major problems with restoring THE WELSHMAN is the centre crank axle.  Has that been resolved yet ?

 

It will be somewhat ironic if photos taken for building a model are actually used to assist the rebuilding of the full size loco !

The crank axle is indeed an issue but we think we have identified a spare, having said that the cracks may not be beyond repair with modern techniques. There's plenty of work involved but the boiler shouldn't be too costly as it was overhauled and retubed at Chatterley Whifield Mining Museum in the early 90s with a view to restoring the loco to steam until the crank axle issues were discovered.

[Barclay]

I have now produced the cab roof, although it still needs 2 holes drilling for the safety valves.

 

Smokebox door is a casting I had in the spares box, although the cast handles have been removed and replaced with a turned brass handle from Britrail models, who I have never heard of but I found it second hand in my local model shop, John Dutfields. The drawing suggests one handle and one wheel, which is borne out by photo's of contemporary loco's, so the second handle will be replaced by a wheel from a handy etch of wheels I bought a while back. Frame extensions have also been added, and the tank looks a little better I think, following a session with some wet and dry paper. It only started at 10 thou, so some of that metal must be pretty thin by now. At last we have something that is starting to look like a loco, although none of the bits have been attached to each other yet: 

 

 

If you are at the Ally Pally exhibition please do come and visit the EM gauge society stand - I'll be on it on the Saturday with the model, and a few other bits and pieces.

 

The stage I like best, the  basic metalwork, is now coming to a close, and I must drive myself on to finish the details, so posts may be a little further apart from now on, but we'll get there!

 

 

 

[Barclay]

I know it looks practically the same as it did before but this loco has absorbed a lot of modelling time over the last few weeks.

 

Firstly, I had some issues with the tank. When I marked it with a scriber to drill for handrail knobs I actually dented it, indicating that much of that 10 thou thickness had been rubbed away during shaping. Then I realised it was about 2mm too deep, and I still wasn't completely satisfied with the shape, so in the end I made a new one. The replacement wrapper is of 15 thou brass, annealed on the gas hob. The ends were re-used after a slight re-profile, as were the strengthening sections inside the bottom edges. The new one sat much better on the loco so it was worth the effort:

 

 

 

 

Then came detailing - handrail knobs, cab beading, sandboxes, and everything was soldered together so it no longer falls apart when you touch it.

After that the firebox was made up from sheet brass, with the backplate laminated from a number of pieces and filed to shape. the detail is rudimentary but I never go in for high levels of detail - this is what Iain Rice would call a 'layout loco', that's my excuse..

 

 

 

The safety valves came from the spares box, extended with brass tube, with their mounting made from a short piece of thick walled tube, filled with Araldite. There are now 2 holes in the cab roof where they almost protrude.

 

 

Still more fiddly bits will follow in due course, but I might work on the chassis soon - it would be good to see it move!

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Barclay

[Michael Edge]

You won't find any more Britrail models parts, they were imported from Hong Kong nearly 40 years ago along with the gold plated Jubilees etc. There were lots of other useful components like this, I still have a few odds and ends in my spares drawers. The Manning Wardle looks superb by the way.

[Regularity]

You won't find any more Britrail models parts, they were imported from Hong Kong nearly 40 years ago along with the gold plated Jubilees etc. There were lots of other useful components like this, I still have a few odds and ends in my spares drawers. The Manning Wardle looks superb by the way.

I once came across a Britrail set of screw link couplings. They were the best practical version I have ever seen: wish I could get more.

[Michael Edge]

I once came across a Britrail set of screw link couplings. They were the best practical version I have ever seen: wish I could get more.

They were a bit on the large side though, I used them for quite some time but they dangled well into the 4ft and had to be hooked up on the front end of locos. One of my customers was involved with importing all this stuff but he died in 1982 - it's all a long time ago now.

[Regularity]

They were a bit on the large side though, I used them for quite some time but they dangled well into the 4ft and had to be hooked up on the front end of locos. One of my customers was involved with importing all this stuff but he died in 1982 - it's all a long time ago now.

Well, they may have been a bit on the large size for 4mm scale, but I work in S...

[5050]

1982 - it's all a long time ago now.

Eee, we were nobbut lads then Mike, with a long future of happy kitbuilding before us.

 

What happened?  I've still got some of those kits!

[Michael Edge]

So have I....

[Barclay]

The only 3' 6" wheels Gibson seem to produce are 10 spoke which is 2 or 3 too few for a big hefty beast like this, judging by photo's of similar loco's. However the days of Sharman are long gone and we must be grateful for what we have. Wheeling up was quite straightforward, although some of the wheels were alarmingly loose on the axles. Superglue didn't seem to hold that well, so I ended up using Loctite 603, which will hopefully keep things in place. The rods require more shaping as you will see, but it runs pretty well straight away so I'm reasonably happy.

 

 

On the track it's a touch down by the stern which is easily fixed by tweaking the compensation beam. However, it's actually the front that appears to be at the right height and the back about 1mm too low. There's a hard way and an easy way to fix this, the hard way being to dismantle the chassis, de-solder the rear axle bearings, elongate their holes, and put it all back together. The easy way will be to pop a slip of plasticard between chassis and running plate at the back. Don't make me feel bad about this!

 

 

 

 

Once I have fitted some pickups I can start testing the mechanism in earnest:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Barclay

[stevejjjexcov]

Slip of plasticard seems OK to me why give yourself all that work. Keep it simple say I

Been following the build it looks great

All the best Steve

[Barclay]

I did try levelling the superstructure by spacing it off the chassis at the rear but it didn't look right, as the chassis was visibly tilted, so off it all came and the rear axle bearings were teased a little lower in the chassis before re-assembly. Didn't take too long and I'm much happier with it. Been doing some running in and it's nice and smooth.

 

 

 

It's so hot today - you could fry eggs on that Duette!

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Barclay

[Ruston]

That's looking really nice now. I bet it'll be a swine for buffer-locking with that short wheelbase and long overhangs and I can imagine that the real thing, had they built it, would have given a rough ride for the crew.

[Barclay]

I'm hoping the big buffers will help, but it wouldn't have been very stable at any kind of speed that's for sure!

[Barclay]

You do get the occasional Mashima motor where the bushes have been pressed in too far.  I came across two like that in fairly quick succession some years ago.  One was simply very stiff and got extremely hot but did at least run.  The other was even stiffer and would only run for a minute or so before seizing up. 

 

This was back in the early days of RMweb and a posting on what might well have been the original version of the forum got the problem diagnosed and a cure suggested within seconds.  Open the vice far enough to let the casing of the motor rest on top of the jaws with the motor shaft dangling down between them.  Tap the other end of the shaft with something suitable (I vaguely recall using the handle of a Stanley knife) and check again.  If you over-do it (within reason) a variation on the process but using a piece of tube of suitable diameter can be used to drift the bushes back in a bit.

 

I will admit that the first time I did it my teeth were gritted and my heart was in my mouth but Mashima motors are tough things and it did the trick very quickly and very easily.

One of those motors is still hard at work, powering my oldest, most-reliable, sweetest-running loco!

I've had a go at Mike's fix on the Mashima motor and can report that the shaft bearings are quite happy being drifted in and out. Sadly this wasn't the problem with my motor as even with considerable fore and aft play the motor was still seizing up after a couple of weeks' inactivity. I ended up taking it apart to reveal what looked like rust on the shaft at the commutator end. I cleaned this up with very fine wet and dry, added a little oil, and re-assembled. Several weeks later it still runs OK but just to be on the safe side I'll leave it for a couple of years before I use it!

Meanwhile I was on the EMGS stand at the Ilford exhibition on Saturday and the Manning Wardle ran all day on the rolling road with no problems. I reckon it's done 1 or 2 actual miles now, so it's time to get on with the detailing...

[Barclay]

Getting quite close now - I needed to see Gibson's at Expo-EM to obtain spring castings and a reversing quadrant. These have now been installed together with a handbrake column that was a duplicate from an ancient RM Evans kit. Other details have just been so much fiddling and faffing around until I couldn't bear it any more. Like I've said before, this phase isn't the bit that pleases me but I have had to plough on with it.  Brakes are some nice cast brass ones I got from an oddments box at Scaleforum - they needed slimming down to fit between the rear two sets of drivers, as this long boiler wasn't 'extreme' enough to warrant having the brakes fitted on the opposite side of the rear set of drivers.

 

I toyed with the idea of installing tank support brackets as per 'The Welshman' although they are not shown on the drawing. I did make them but this area was getting pretty full of somewhat overscale details so I left them off in the end.

 

Pickups are 0.33 brass wire on copperclad mountings, and I'm pleased to report that the loco has now moved on the layout under it's own power for the first time, and the running was very satisfactory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite blasting it with an airline I've still managed to get a few glassfibre bits stuck in the primer - typical.

 

Paint (I'm currently using GWR green) will follow when I have time, and then it will be left for a couple of weeks to harden off before weathering, worksplates and number plates, etc. I'm really looking forward to seeing it finished and taking its place in the loco stud. Then I can start the next one!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Barclay