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HS High Speed TGV Hyperloop Maglev



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#1 Allegheny1600

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 19:57

Hi All,

Anyone else interested in high-speed rail?

By which I mean real high speed - above 300Mph.

 

How about this: https://carnewschina...h-record-train/

and: https://www.cnbc.com...technology.html

The Chinese have recently introduced this incredible train with what appears to be a top design speed (cruising speed) of 500Kmh(311Mph).

 

Obviously, the French took the current record of 574Kmh (357Mph) in 2007 but that was with a special train and special circumstances, the above Chinese train is a service train!

 

Meanwhile, in the USA, "Beardy Bloke", presumably along with Elon Musk, are working on a different sort of technology: https://newatlas.com...d-record/52668/ and https://www.wired.co...ne-engineering/

https://hyperloop-one.com/

This is "only" 387Kmh (240Mph) but for early days, I find it quite fascinating. The ambition with this is to go at or above supersonic speeds and eventually when that happens, the jet airliner should be doomed.

As someone who absolutely hates and detests the ''airport'' experience, I can't wait.

Please feel free to add to this in any way you can.

John.


Edited by Allegheny1600, 04 February 2018 - 12:40 .

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#2 AMJ

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 11:34

The French have realised that the existing LGV (line a grand vitesse) have a  minor flaw that to get a greater speed for service trains due to turbulence of passing trains they need to increase the separation between the parallel tracks.

 

Other than the fairly compact seaboard cities in USA I think that the plethora of low cost airlines have got the longer distances sewn up.  Having done NY, Chicago and thence to LA in September on Amtrak I think I'd do some of the long distances by plane in future.

 

Similarly low cost airlines have killed off the likes of the night trains in Europe as many know you can get a train to the airport at each end and a swift flight.

 

I'd rather travel by train but you have to be realistic when there are economically priced flights from say £10 on a certain Irish operator to many places in Europe.  There was once an article in a national paper indicating that a guy in Liverpool was going to see his team in London and he caught 2 planes one to Netherlands and thence to London cheaper than the fare on the train!  How can the train compete?


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#3 Allegheny1600

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 12:39

I agree that the French LGV's have relatively close parallel lines as you do get quite a 'thump' when passing another train!

 

But, low cost airlines? Really? What future do they have? I cannot see any "low cost" airline existing in their current forms much beyond the next ten years. I travel fairly regularly from the UK to Athens and costs have risen considerably beyond "cheap" over this past ten years and will only get worse.

 

I'm sure it will be much further into the future before Hyperloop technology becomes established beyond 'key' routes but I certainly believe it will happen. The fact that Richard Branson is investing in this mode of transport must mean that he is also keen?

 

I can well believe that Liverpool to Schiphol and then Schiphol to London would be cheaper than the Liverpool to London train, probably by a fair margin but how quick? Flying time would be quicker but the transfer? Schiphol is massive and if you have limited time and different legs of the hub to reach, it can get very stressful - I've done it!

Cheers,

John.



#4 Talltim

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 12:55

While China seems to leading on high high speed the are also the leaders on quantity of high speed. These pics are great
http://www.dailymail...let-trains.html
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#5 Edwin_m

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:09

Hi All,

Anyone else interested in high-speed rail?

By which I mean real high speed - above 300Mph.

 

How about this: https://carnewschina...h-record-train/

and: https://www.cnbc.com...technology.html

The Chinese have recently introduced this incredible train with what appears to be a top design speed (cruising speed) of 500Kmh(311Mph).

 

Obviously, the French took the current record of 574Kmh (357Mph) in 2007 but that was with a special train and special circumstances, the above Chinese train is a service train!

 

Meanwhile, in the USA, "Beardy Bloke", presumably along with Elon Musk, are working on a different sort of technology: https://newatlas.com...d-record/52668/ and https://www.wired.co...ne-engineering/

https://hyperloop-one.com/

This is "only" 387Kmh (240Mph) but for early days, I find it quite fascinating. The ambition with this is to go at or above supersonic speeds and eventually when that happens, the jet airliner should be doomed.

As someone who absolutely hates and detests the ''airport'' experience, I can't wait.

Please feel free to add to this in any way you can.

John.

I think the China one may be something of a one-off too, driven by prestige rather than practicality.  The limit of economic operation of conventional rail looks to be somewhere around 300-400km/h due to things such as aerodynamics, wind resistance, noise and pantograph-wire dynamics.  Experience shows that when the rail journey between two cities is less than 3hr then rail captures most of the passengers from air, and a higher speed would obviously push that further out in distance times, but how many pairs of cities that far apart have enough passengers between them to justify a frequent service of large trains? 

 

I also think Hyperloop also hasn't been thought through as a transport system.  Like a railway it needs fixed infrastructure over the entire length of any journey, and needs to carry large numbers of passengers to justify this cost.  However the carrying capacity seems to be quite low.  Also, being a pressurised capsule running very fast and very close to the walls of an evacuated tube, its vulnerability to bomb attack is likely to be similar to that of an aircraft and therefore similar screening measures will probably be needed prior to boarding.  This means the relationship of journey time to distance is also very similar to flying, with the time to clear security making it uncompetitive for the sort of distances normally travelled by train in Europe.  It may have more of a role in America and places like Arabia where there are widely-separated cities with enough affluence to generate reasonable numbers of passengers travelling between them and perhaps to pay for the infrastructure. 


Edited by Edwin_m, 04 February 2018 - 13:14 .

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#6 Mike Storey

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:36

I would suggest that the technology for running trains at much higher speeds has been around for decades,as the French have already proven, whatever Chinese state-sponsored propaganda would try to have us believe.

 

The key issue is the economics of doing so, with energy requirements rising exponentially above around 350kph, as do the track geometry minima. This is why HS2 is being planned for a likely operational speed of about 360 kph although capability is proposed for around 400kph, unlikely ever to be used unless electric traction efficiency improves radically.

 

I guess we will never know the actual economics of the Chinese internal system, which has an ideological and strategic intent far beyond its immediate introduction. It is of note that the Chinese have claimed they have won the contract to design and build a high speed rail system for Indonesia, whereas the Indonesians state they have scrubbed this and are now seeking tenders for a conventional speed system. It will prove interesting as China seeks more export orders, as to when the real economics of operation begin to sink in with customers more used to having to deal with real world costs, and whether WTO rules will be applied to their pricing policy (unfair competition through significant state subsidy specifically prohibited under WTO rules). I guess countries like India (a declared customer) will not complain, but potential European and Japanese competitors, who have seen their technology effectively copied, after initial joint ventures, may well choose to do so, now that future joint ventures prospects are probably zero.


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#7 Allegheny1600

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 13:55

Hi Edwin,

You raise some interesting points, particularly regarding the "bomb" question. However, thinking of attacks on (at least) the French and Spanish networks, conventional railway networks (HS or not) have also proved vulnerable to terrorism, sadly. While conventional railways don't seem to have put in place the sort of screening that is in place at airports, it may be all too necessary in the future.

I suspect it may become necessary to enforce such procedures with any hyperloop system as any disaster at speeds of around 760Mph would be at least as catastrophic as an airliner hitting the ground at full speed. Even so with fully 'domestic' systems, sadly.

Certainly, wealthy, larger countries may be the first adopters but I believe "freer thinking" countries like Holland, Scandinavia and so on, are also interested.

I think the carrying capacity will be increased when such systems become more established with longer 'pods' or even 'trains of pods' or larger tubes for enhanced gauge pods. Remember, the current systems are very much experimental.



#8 Allegheny1600

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 14:04

Hi Mike,

Quite right - the Chinese will have us believe only what they want us to believe and I would bet on the likes of Alsthom and Siemens being pretty pee'd off that their technology has been "improved" by the Chinese state-owned corporations!

Who knows, maybe they have developed a kind of railway 'supercruise'? (supersonic flight without needing to use afterburner). Such a technological advance could make 500Kph travel more economical, although the Car News article suggested more use of plastics and composites, leading to less weight.

Cheers,

John.


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#9 Mike Storey

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 19:39

Hi Edwin,

You raise some interesting points, particularly regarding the "bomb" question. However, thinking of attacks on (at least) the French and Spanish networks, conventional railway networks (HS or not) have also proved vulnerable to terrorism, sadly. While conventional railways don't seem to have put in place the sort of screening that is in place at airports, it may be all too necessary in the future.

I suspect it may become necessary to enforce such procedures with any hyperloop system as any disaster at speeds of around 760Mph would be at least as catastrophic as an airliner hitting the ground at full speed. Even so with fully 'domestic' systems, sadly.

Certainly, wealthy, larger countries may be the first adopters but I believe "freer thinking" countries like Holland, Scandinavia and so on, are also interested.

I think the carrying capacity will be increased when such systems become more established with longer 'pods' or even 'trains of pods' or larger tubes for enhanced gauge pods. Remember, the current systems are very much experimental.

 

Honestly, I doubt that advanced western economies will be the first adopters. I remember much the same hype about Dr Eric Brathwaite's hover train (maglev) technology in the 1970's, which the Daily Mail and similar reckoned the bloody Frogs then pinched and developed much further (because the same Daily Mail government did not believe in subsidising R&D). But even the French gave up because, despite building a very long test track to prove the tech, could not develop a viable business case to adopt it, due to its inherent incompatibility with anything other than discrete point to point journeys. They went with LGV/TGV instead.

 

if the "tube" goes any further, it will be against the prevailing philosophy of inter-operability. I am sure there will be the odd pairs of cities in the USA, and elsewhere with unencumbered access, that might give it a shot, in the next 30 years, but that is about all. 



#10 EddieB

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 20:38

I remember much the same hype about Dr Eric Brathwaite's hover train (maglev) technology in the 1970's, which the Daily Mail and similar reckoned the bloody Frogs then pinched and developed much further (because the same Daily Mail government did not believe in subsidising R&D). 

Eric Laithwaite, I presume?  Somewhere I think I have a copy of "Model Railways" with an article he wrote on "linear motors".


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#11 jjb1970

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 21:02

An impressive train but its not the best looker, though in fairness many high speed trains have been getting uglier IMO. Some of the newer Japanese Shinkansen trains look decidedly odd.

 

When hyperloop was announced I dismissed it as smoke and mirrors and a pipe dream (appropriately enough) but I've revised my opinion as if you want very high speeds then it makes a lot of sense as it resolves the air resistance problem. Regardless of how efficient you make the electric traction package or how light you make a train at high speeds it is never going to be efficient thanks to the power necessitated by overcoming air resistance.

 

On China, there have been some remarkable infrastructure projects there in recent years. A couple of months ago I took a taxi from Shanghai Pudong to Nantong which took me over the Shanghai Yangtze crossings, very impressive.


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#12 jjb1970

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 21:04

I would bet on the likes of Alsthom and Siemens being pretty pee'd off that their technology has been "improved" by the Chinese state-owned corporations!

 

 

They may well be but that is how most economies have industrialised and most corporations adopt technologies designed by somebody else. I think Alstom and Siemens would be on rocky ground to make too much of that one.


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#13 AMJ

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 23:34

Many foreign stations main line and under ground have metal detectors etc but I think they are designed to check for explosive devices.
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#14 Allegheny1600

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 14:35

I just want to place these picture links here, showing the relative HS networks in Europe and Asia.

https://commons.wiki...p_of_Europe.svg

 

https://commons.wiki...sia_HSR2016.svg

 

What is quite remarkable to me, is the density of the Spanish network, even in comparison to the French network, especially when you consider that Spanish HS train loadings are just 15% of their French counterparts.













Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: HS, High Speed, TGV, Hyperloop, Maglev