Is it OO or 00 gauge?

[Jol Wilkinson]

I agree with Pat that 00 looks better, although that may depend to some extent on the font used. Wikipedia give both choices referring to OO or 00 gauge, whereas Gaugemaster (who should know better) refer to OO Scale.

 

00 is also narrower than OO, which is rather appropriate. 

 

 

Edited for typo and also to point out that there are other retailers besides Gaugemaster who are equally in error.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[Joseph_Pestell]

When I was a kid it was still quite common in certain places - mainly European countries I believe - for 1 and 7 to be distinguished in handwriting by putting a horizontal dash across the middle of the 7.  That was because the digit 1 was written as it appears in Arial (ie RMWeb's default font) with one short slanting upstroke followed by a full-height vertical downstroke.  The absence of the "foot" such as in Tahoma ("1"), Verdana ("1") or Times New Roman ("1") means that, written clumsily, a 1 can easily look like a 7.

 

For a while at school I took to writing my 7s with the crossbar, as a sort of teenage affectation.  My maths teacher soon persuaded me of the error of my ways!

 

There seem to be very few computer fonts that use the crossed seven.  On my Mac only Lucida Blackletter, Handwriting Dakota and Bradley Hand Bold use that form of the 7.

 

EDIT: According to Wiki, the use of the crossbar to differentiate 7 from 1 is still common in continental Europe and "increasingly in the UK and Ireland".  That latter statement I would seriously question, based purely on my own observation and experience.  I can't remember seeing a crossed 7 on a handwritten document from anyone in the UK since the I stopped doing it myself in the 1970s!

 

My late mother always crossed her sevens.

 

I, too (born 1957), still cross my sevens as does my wife (born 1971).

[BernardTPM]

Simple really: written as 0, pronounced 'oh' (oh one for London, nineteen oh one, etc.).

I only cross sevens (or any other numbers) if they're wrong (also born 1957).

[ejstubbs]

Embarrassingly, I remember first seeing the crossed 7 on the hand-written score-boards of European editions of It's a Knockout. The continental European judges were in charge of those. It looked strange and exotic to me.

 

Paul

 

That's probably where I got the idea from, too, as a callow youth!  Arthur Ellis (ex professional football referee - and English in case you hadn't guessed!) was also a judge for Jeux Sans Frontières - which was an international franchise based originally on a French game show called Intervilles.  I think Arthur may have used the crossed 7 as well - probably to avoid confusing our friends from over the Channel/North Sea.

[MarkSG]

It has to be double "owe".

 

My logic comes from ww2 Royal Artillery signalling procedure. "Zero" is the line set by the survey team from the battery position to the target to which all the guns are aligned. "Owe" is used when giving target map references as in 202345, which would be said "two, owe" "two, three" "four,owe". Any corrections to the ranging shot as observed would be "4 degrees right of zero".

 

Yes, if we're going to be pedantic (and this seems like the perfect opportunity for it!), "zero" is the name of a value, not the name of a digit. Zero is another word for the quantity otherwise expressed as "nil", "nothing", etc. In the same way that you wouldn't describe "30" as  "three nil", historically, it wouldn't have been described as "three zero" either - it would, instead, be "three oh". But, on the other hand, if you are talking about a sport score, you wouldn't say "oh", you'd say "nil" (or, in tennis, "love"), because you are describing the value, not the digit.

 

The use of "zero" as a name for the digit is more recent, and has entered into popular practice mainly as a result of the need to distinguish between 0 and O in writing. If you're making a distinction in writing, then it helps to make a distinction in speech.

 

Computer terminology also has a lot to answer for, in this respect. Binary numbers are always expressed as ones and zeros, never as ones and ohs. But that's because a binary number represents a sequence of individual bits, each of which has either a value of one or a value of nothing. There's no word for the binary equivalent of, say, "twelve" or "twenty" (or even, for that matter, "two"). Every bit is enunciated separately. 

[MarkSG]

It's a bit like telephone numbers.

Is the first digit oh or zero?

 

It's "oh". And telephone numbers aren't actually numbers. They're words (technically, strings), but made up solely of digit symbols rather than letter symbols. Because a true number can't have a leading zero. In mathematics, 0345 is exactly the same as 345 (three hundred and forty-five). But if you try dialling 345, instead of 0345, you won't get the recipient you expect.

 

In fact, in telephony terms, 0 actually represents ten, not zero. The first automatic telephone exchange, the Strowger system, had a set of rotary switches with 11 positions: "off" (not connected to anything), and ten "on" positions, each connected to a different switch on the next rack, so that you can link a route through the switch bank by connecting the first switch to, say, the fifth switch in the next row, and that switch to the second switch in the next, and so on until you get all the way through. The switches are moved by pulses sent by the telephone (again, if you're old enough, you'll remember rotary dial telephones and recall hearing them send the pulses). Starting from zero (off), each pulse pushes the switch round one more position until the pulses pause, and that's where it stays. To get to the tenth position, the phone has to send ten pulses, but they are sent by the position marked '0' on the dial.

 

So, if we wanted to be really pedantic, we could express 0345 in speech as "ten three four five". But that's clearly not intuitive, and potentially very misleading (since that could equally be interpreted by a listener as 10345). So we use "oh three four five" instead, which matches what is written.It is not, however, "zero three four five", since that is wrong both mathematically and technically.

[Bernard Lamb]

It's "oh". And telephone numbers aren't actually numbers. They're words (technically, strings), but made up solely of digit symbols rather than letter symbols. 

 

So, if we wanted to be really pedantic, we could express 0345 in speech as "ten three four five". But that's clearly not intuitive, and potentially very misleading (since that could equally be interpreted by a listener as 10345). So we use "oh three four five" instead, which matches what is written.It is not, however, "zero three four five", since that is wrong both mathematically and technically.

In technical terms I do not doubt your explanation.

However the population at large refer to them as phone numbers. I suppose we all need re-educating.

Having read out my phone number in the format you approve of I will then move on to give my credit card number. Back to square 1.

I gave up long ago on trying to be correct and settled for trying to get my point across in a way that could be understood and acted on.

Bernard 

[kevinlms]

It's "oh". And telephone numbers aren't actually numbers. They're words (technically, strings), but made up solely of digit symbols rather than letter symbols. Because a true number can't have a leading zero. In mathematics, 0345 is exactly the same as 345 (three hundred and forty-five). But if you try dialling 345, instead of 0345, you won't get the recipient you expect.

 

In fact, in telephony terms, 0 actually represents ten, not zero. The first automatic telephone exchange, the Strowger system, had a set of rotary switches with 11 positions: "off" (not connected to anything), and ten "on" positions, each connected to a different switch on the next rack, so that you can link a route through the switch bank by connecting the first switch to, say, the fifth switch in the next row, and that switch to the second switch in the next, and so on until you get all the way through. The switches are moved by pulses sent by the telephone (again, if you're old enough, you'll remember rotary dial telephones and recall hearing them send the pulses). Starting from zero (off), each pulse pushes the switch round one more position until the pulses pause, and that's where it stays. To get to the tenth position, the phone has to send ten pulses, but they are sent by the position marked '0' on the dial.

 

So, if we wanted to be really pedantic, we could express 0345 in speech as "ten three four five". But that's clearly not intuitive, and potentially very misleading (since that could equally be interpreted by a listener as 10345). So we use "oh three four five" instead, which matches what is written.It is not, however, "zero three four five", since that is wrong both mathematically and technically.

Kiwi's will disagree, as their rotary dial phones were labelled backwards. For a '7' it actually dialled '3'!

 

That is why their Emergency Services are '111' and NOT '999'!

 

Strange but true! See photo 2/3rds of the way down the page here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial#Function

 

Today some features are not available on their phone system, that most of us take as universal.

Edited February 6, 2018 by kevinlms

[MarkSG]

Kiwi's will disagree, as their rotary dial phones were labelled backwards. For a '7' it actually dialled '3'!

 

That is why their Emergency Services are '111' and NOT '999'!

 

Strange but true! See photo 2/3rds of the way down the page here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial#Function

 

Today some features are not available on their phone system, that most of us take as universal.

 

That's a perfectly valid use of the Strowger system, of course, because there's no overriding technical reason why the number of pulses has to coincide with the digit dialled. And, in one sense, a formula that P = 10 - N, where N is the number dialled and P is the number of pulses sent, is simpler and more consistent than the British and US system where P = (N > 0) ? N : 10. 

[w124bob]

I would always go with the OO as in dublo etc

I know this annoys some people. but they seem to be the sort of people that annoying is fun

 

I am sure this thread will go on and on and round and round....rather like a figure 0 or O in fact!

6

I model in "ho" but should that be HO,H0,h0 or hlo, g00dbye.

[The Johnster]

I consider myself to model in 4mm to the foot scale, a somewhat hybrid thing between decimal and imperial units, or 1:76 if you want a ratio, to 00 (numerals, please) gauge coarse scale standards.  This is, IMHO, a reasonable description of modern RTR standard modelling.  I am happy to use the term 16mm for my track gauge, and while I have no objection to anyone using the term OO I prefer not to myself, while not imposing my standards or opinions on others who have every right to be wrong...

 

I particularly object, though, to 00/H0 or any of it's derivates, even in connection with some Trix stuff that was modelled to a hybrid 3.8mm to the foot scale.  You can have 00 or H0, but not both at the same time.  I strongly support the concept of British outline H0 as a means of disposing of all this EM/P4/S4 nonsense (runs for cover), but not the reality which sounds far too much like hard work to me!

[ejstubbs]

Yes, if we're going to be pedantic (and this seems like the perfect opportunity for it!), "zero" is the name of a value, not the name of a digit.

 

What's this then: "0".  It's a numerical digit, and it's not the same as this: "O".

 

Wiki says: "0 is both a number and [my emphasis] the numerical digit used to represent that number in numerals."

 

Pretty much the whole point of zero in place value number systems is that it is a digit: it means "there is no quantity of this power of the base number".

 

The use of "zero" as a name for the digit is more recent, and has entered into popular practice mainly as a result of the need to distinguish between 0 and O in writing. If you're making a distinction in writing, then it helps to make a distinction in speech.

 

Oxford reckons the word "zero" in English dates back to the early 17th century (although Wiki says late 16th), derived from either the French or Italian equivalent word, via Old Spanish from Arabic ṣifr ‘cipher.  I don't know if that's what you had in mind by "more recent"?

 

Computer terminology also has a lot to answer for, in this respect. Binary numbers are always expressed as ones and zeros, never as ones and ohs. But that's because a binary number represents a sequence of individual bits, each of which has either a value of one or a value of nothing. There's no word for the binary equivalent of, say, "twelve" or "twenty" (or even, for that matter, "two"). Every bit is enunciated separately. 

 

People who can read binary are very likely to read the binary number "10100" as twenty: the string of binary digits represents exactly the same quantity as it does expressed in decimal as "20", in octal as "24" and in hexadecimal as "14".

 

I suspect you and I might both be justly accused of over-thinking this...

 

FWIW, my mobile number begins with a "zero" but my landline begins with an "oh" - at least, they do when I recite them for other people to note down.  No idea why, just habit I guess!

[andytrains]

To me, if you are wanting to emphasise that it's a number rather than a letter, then it's 'Zero' rather than 'Oh'...

 

... but then, that's my training in correct RT through:-

work, where correct RT procedure, even on our hand-held radios, is encouraged

being a licensed Private Pilot (my CAA RT licence number, believe it or not, is 45678 - my friend who did the course at the same time got 45679 - he was not happy...)

Amateur Radio, where I hold a Golf Zero callsign...

 

But when referring to 4mm scale, 16.5mm gauge, it's always been 'double-oh' - I must be of that certain age 

Your callsigns should be De Robeck and your friends Armada.

 

Jubilees. Coat Hat Door.

[MarkSG]

 

Oxford reckons the word "zero" in English dates back to the early 17th century (although Wiki says late 16th), derived from either the French or Italian equivalent word, via Old Spanish from Arabic ṣifr ‘cipher.  I don't know if that's what you had in mind by "more recent"?

 

 

Zero has been around a very long time as a word for the quantity of nothing (or nil). The use of the word as a name for the digit 0 is more recent. 

 

To give an example of the difference, consider the number 30. If you were saying that as individual digits (ie, not as "thirty"), you'd say either of these:

 

three oh

three zero  

 

but you wouldn't say either of these:

 

three nil

three nothing

 

But now consider the result of some sporting competition, using the same digits: 3 - 0. You'd say that in one of three ways:

 

three nil

three nothing

three zero

 

(the first is most common in British football, but you'd hear the others in other sports, particularly in the US where "zero" is common)

 

You would not however, say:

 

three oh

 

There's an interesting comparison there. When we say "three oh", it's clear that we mean a sequence of consecutive digits that form part of the same number. But when we say "three nil" or "three nothing", it's equally clear that we're referring to two different numbers.

 

The odd thing is that "three zero" can be used either way. It can either be consecutive digits of the same number (eg, as in 30), or it can be two separate numbers (as in 3 - 0).

 

What's happened is that, over time, the word "zero" has evolved from being purely a synonym of "nothing" or "nil", and become a synonym for "oh" (in the digit sense), while still retaining its original sense. And one of the main drivers of that evolution has been the need to distinguish between the digit 0 and the letter O in print. Which is a relatively recent thing, dating mainly from the mid to late 20th century, although you can find isolated examples of it earlier.

 

----------------------------------

 

Apropos nothing in particular, here's another interesting fact. The blood group O is always pronounced 'oh'. But it actually derives from the digit 0, meaning nothing. Because blood can contain two different types of agglutinogens, type A and type B. Blood can have both of them (blood type AB), only one of them (blood type A or blood type B), or neither of them (blood type 0). It should, therefore, really be spoken as "blood type zero". But nobody ever does.

[Happy Hippo]

Embarrassingly, I remember first seeing the crossed 7 on the hand-written score-boards of European editions of It's a Knockout. The continental European judges were in charge of those. It looked strange and exotic to me.

 

Paul

I still do it, a lot of emphasis being placed in crossing the seven and slashing the zero when you are trained in military signals.

[Happy Hippo]

It has to be double "owe".

 

My logic comes from ww2 Royal Artillery signalling procedure. "Zero" is the line set by the survey team from the battery position to the target to which all the guns are aligned. "Owe" is used when giving target map references as in 202340, which would be said "two, owe" "two, three" "four,owe". Any corrections to the ranging shot as observed would be "4 degrees right of zero".

Military signals have changed since the A for Able days.   It was definitely zero when I was serving with an air defence regiment.

[Free At Last]

And then there is nought.

[Dunsignalling]

Zero (verbally) for nought is likely to have originated in aviation and/or military radio protocols but has been adopted wherever communication is safety critical.

 

J0hn

 

[who tarried t00 l0ng in the pub to catch One-Lima-Six-Zero and came home on One-Oscar-Six-Eight instead.]

Edited February 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Ozexpatriate]

Zero (verbally) for nought is likely to have originated in aviation and/or military communications but has been adopted wherever communication is safety critical.

There's a potted history here. Much of it was aviation driven, in particular the IATA and US FAA.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[steve1]

Why not say 4mm and avoid the problem altogether?

 

steve

[Ozexpatriate]

My club is to produce a promo poster and it will include the term 00 - but should it be OO?

I believe that Hornby and Bachmann print 00 on their boxes.

 

I'm sure someone can check.

[Andy Hayter]

For the pedants who claim that zero is the only acceptable form of the number, I have always found that when asked the time three oh five beats three zero five for five minutes past three.

 

If Tony Wright ever takes his Little Bytham layout to a GOG meeting, what are the public going to say?

 

OO its a 00 layout

or

00 it an OO layout?

 

Frankly 2 pages of nonsense answers to the OP based on what people want to think.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Why not say 4mm and avoid the problem altogether?

 

steve

Because most people, including those who may have had train set when younger, will have some idea of how big a OO/00 model is, but not may relate to 4mm:ft or 1/76 scale.

 

I help out a 4mm scale etch kit manufacturer at several shows each year. At those where the general public are a significant number of the visitors they often ask if these are 00 models, but never say 4mm or one seventy sixth scale.

[Clive Mortimore]

Military signals have changed since the A for Able days.   It was definitely zero when I was serving with an air defence regiment.

 

Hi Richard

 

They had changed by the time I was a gun fitter attached to 31 Bty, 47 Fld Regt, R.A.

 

My posting wasn't serious, but in WW2 to stop confusion 0 was "owe" and the guns were set on zero lines.

 

From Nigel Evans wonderful and informative site http://nigelef.tripod.com/artycomm.htm

 

Fire Orders followed the rules of Voice or Telegraph Procedures but with some key differences.  All messages were automatically repeated back by the recipient to the sender, and if incorrect the sender repeated their message prefixed by the proword 'Wrong'.  This was a critical element in the system of preventing mistakes and associated with it was the practice that fire orders were always written down by both sender and recipient, but usually destroyed within a day or so.  Numbers were spoken without the proword 'Figures' and 'owe' was used instead of 'zero' (to avoid confusion with zero lines).  Observation Posts (OP) could call gun troops by their troop name - eg 'Able Troop', 'Easy Troop', etc, - on a battery or troop radio net.  Call signs were dropped altogether for troop and battery targets after the initial call, unless 'rotation' procedures were being used (one or two OPs engaging different targets on the same net at the same time).  The term 'net' wasn't officially used, 'wireless group' was the official term, but 'net' became vernacular probably from the 'netting call' procedure used to establish communications in a 'wireless group'.

 

Sadly Nigel doesn't include coastal, anti-tank or anti aircraft regiments.

 

Hornby Doublzero doesn't roll off the tongue

Edited February 6, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[TEAMYAKIMA]

As the OP I have followed this thread with interest and some amazement.

 

I agree that there is a version that we should call it for historical reasons - 00 but what do we in 2018 actually call it?

 

So I tought I would find out some stats

 

I looked at ebay

 

There are 144,768 items listed as OO and 21,511 listed as 00

 

I think that convinces me that, no matter what it was in 1935, today it's OO.