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Size differences between Japanese 'N' and UK outline

peak experience

By peak experience,
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peak experience

peak experience

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Hi all, 

I'm interested in modelling somewhere on the Japanese 3'6'' network. I believe this is the most common gauge in the country; 22, 000+ Km compared to 4000+ for standard gauge. 

Kato and Tomix would seem to be the most popular model manufacturers for Japanese models. There track is the same gauge as our standard Peco 'N' gauge track.

Are Kato/Tomix Japanese narrow gauge models therefore larger in scale than UK models? I couldn't find a photo online showing say, for instance, an 'N' gauge Japanese suburban unit alongside a UK, 'N' gauge DMU or are the same size and run on the wrong gauge track? 

 

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rab

rab

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Why did we go (or stick with) with OO instead of HO which is more accurate proportion wise and they get all the mechanisms in their smaller bodies including sound?

No, please not again! :(

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Joseph_Pestell

Joseph_Pestell

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Let's get back to the topic. 9mm x 150 = 1350mm, so way above what it should be for 3'6 (1071mm) gauge. Japanese manufacturers have compromised so that their models of standard gauge and 3'6" gauge prototypes all use the same track. I don't know whether "rivet-counters" exist in Japan but you can imagine the uproar on RMWeb if Hornby or Bachmann decided to produce some Isle of Man 2-4-0T locos at 4mm scale to run on 16.5mm track.

 

If you could find suitable chassis, a better option to model Japanese 3'6" prototypes would be to get some non-motorised 1:150 bodies and mount them on Z gauge mechanisms. 6.5mm x 150 works out at 975mm, a bit too narrow but closer. Or, if you have the space, built 1:64 bodies and put them on H0/00 mechanisms (1056mm).

Edited by Joseph_Pestell
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Joseph_Pestell

Joseph_Pestell

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Actually 1067 mm.

I doubt you will be able to find Z gauge mechs with wheelsize and wheelbase anywhere near so will look worse than the wrong gauge.

Regards

 

Quite right. I knew my figure was off slightly but could not quite remember the right one.

 

Worth a bit of study on the Z mechs. Railcars/DMUs certainly should not present a problem. I would be surprised if there were no suitable loco mechs though I take your point about wheel diameter.

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Pacific231G

Pacific231G

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Why did we go (or stick with) with OO instead of HO which is more accurate proportion wise and they get all the mechanisms in their smaller bodies including sound?

It's a long and very very contentious story going right back to the 1920s but in this topic suffice it to say, without opening the whole can of worms, that Britain has an unusually small loading gauge so, though there were other justifications, the reasons were partly to accomodate the mechanisms  then available to manufacturers at the time each new smaller gauge was introduced, starting with 00 and followed by TT-3 and British N scale.  Of course, a few years after each new scale/gauge was introduced, smaller mechanisms would have become available. The result is that British models generally run on underscale track though for British N, with a scale of 1:148, the compromise is far less than it is for 00 or TT-3..

 

In Japan the reasons may have been similar as they're using the same 9mm gauge track and mechanisms to represent prototypes that mostly run on the Japanese  "standard" gauge of 3ft 6ins (1067mm) also used in New Zealand and much of Africa. However, using a scale of 1:150  only reduces the gauge to the equivalent of 4ft 6ins (1350mm) which is a long way from 3ft 6ins so it may have simply been the smaller physical size of prototype  3ft 6in gauge locos that led to its use. I understand that for models of Shinkansen (bullet trains) which do run on standard gauge track (1435mm) the Japanese manufacturers do use the more common international N scale of 1:160. What I don't understand is why manufacturers of British prototype opted for the awkward scale ratio of 1:148 rather than the apparently simpler 1:150. Does anyone happen to know?

 

I believe that some Japanese modellers use N gauge track and mechs. but a modelling scale of 1:120 (TT scale outside Britain) to model 3ft 6ins gauge prototypes and this is very close to true scale.

Edited by Pacific231G
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Joseph_Pestell

Joseph_Pestell

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I believe that some Japanese modellers use N gauge track and mechs. but a modelling scale of 1:120 (TT scale outside Britain) to model 3ft 6ins gauge prototypes and this is very close to true scale.

 

Yes, that would be a good option. I think that there is quite a bit of 1:120 Japanese stuff on Shapeways. Had not through the significance of that when I saw it.

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dullsteamer

dullsteamer

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Or, if you have the space, built 1:64 bodies and put them on H0/00 mechanisms (1056mm).

Or, if you have the money:

 

https://www.imon.co.jp

 

If I understand things correctly Japanese N scale tends to be 1:150 for 3ft6 lines and 1:160 for std gauge (both on 9mm track). I think that was what Mr Kato explained to me!Cheers, Mike

That's correct.

 

Mark.

Edited by dullsteamer
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Pacific231G

Pacific231G

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If I understand things correctly Japanese N scale tends to be 1:150 for 3ft6 lines and 1:160 for std gauge (both on 9mm track). I think that was what Mr Kato explained to me!

 

Cheers, Mike

Yes, that's my understanding too. For std gauge 1:160 is pretty well spot-on scaling up to a full size1440mm but with 9mm gauge track 1:150 is 1350mm which is 4ft 5ins so very much wider than the 3ft 6in gauge used by over 85% of Japan's railways. .  

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peak experience

peak experience

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Let's get back to the topic. 9mm x 150 = 1350mm, so way above what it should be for 3'6 (1071mm) gauge. Japanese manufacturers have compromised so that their models of standard gauge and 3'6" gauge prototypes all use the same track. I don't know whether "rivet-counters" exist in Japan but you can imagine the uproar on RMWeb if Hornby or Bachmann decided to produce some Isle of Man 2-4-0T locos at 4mm scale to run on 16.5mm track.

 

If you could find suitable chassis, a better option to model Japanese 3'6" prototypes would be to get some non-motorised 1:150 bodies and mount them on Z gauge mechanisms. 6.5mm x 150 works out at 975mm, a bit too narrow but closer. Or, if you have the space, built 1:64 bodies and put them on H0/00 mechanisms (1056mm).

 

Yes Joseph. I think this (Z gauge track) is the way to go for 2mm scale. What a shame though that both here and there we have this ridiculous situation. 

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Pacific231G

Pacific231G

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Yes Joseph. I think this (Z gauge track) is the way to go for 2mm scale. What a shame though that both here and there we have this ridiculous situation.

 

 

Interestingly there is a gauge called 'Zz' (Z scale on 4.5mm) which I understand is for modelling Japanese 3'6" gauge. If there are different scales for 3'6" and standard anyway then why didn't they just pick a larger one for the former to make the gauge closer to scale?

 

That is curious but I understand that ZZ, introduced by Bandai, uses a unique scale of 1:300 originally with 4,8mm gauge track but possibly  4.5mm now for 3ft6in gauge. That is a smaller scale than Z's 1:220.but larger than T scale's 1:450. Apparently though it's close to one of the scales used by wargamers

 

Z scale on 4.5mm gauge track is already defined as Zm in MOROP's NEM which is surely the most widely used system worldwide. In this each scale/gauge combination covers a band of gauges. for 850-1250mm, indicated by a suffix m,  which covers 3ft, metre and 3ft6in gauges, it uses the standard gauge of the next accepted scale down. For H0m that's 12mm gauge and for TTm (1:120) it's 9mm gauge.

 

Nm uses Z gauge's 6.5mm gauge but I assume that, when Japanese manufacturers starting making N scale models of Japanese prototypes, Z gauge if it existed at all, was still pretty well owned by Maerklin so they opted for N gauge track and adjusted the scale slightly in order to get the mechanisms to fit.

 

NEM010  http://www.morop.org/downloads/nem/fr/nem010_f.pdf that covers scales and gauges does now include 4.5mm T gauge track. For Japan's 3ft 6ins gauge that would offer Zm. With 4.5mm gauge track you can now also have, Ne, TTi (TTf if you speak German), and H0p. (The suffix p obviously comes from parkbahn and covers miniature/minimum railway gauges from 300-400mm)

 

The other main system of standards is that of the American NMRA but AFAIK that uses the "correct" gauge or close to it for each of the small range of narrow gauges widely used in North America so HOn3 uses 10.5mm gauge track but H0n 2 1/2 does use 9mm gauge. In practice 9mm gauge has also been widely used to represent 2ft gauge prototypes just as H0e and 0e has been widely used for 60cm prototypes in Europe even though the gauge is rather too wide.  

Does anyone know what flavour of N scale Japanese manufacturers use for buildings? If it's 1:150 wouldn't that make the 1:160 models of the Shinkansens look a bit underscale? 

 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
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jjb1970

jjb1970

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I'm guessing that Japanese modellers and RTR suppliers decided that pragmatic compromise and adapting to existing "scale" was preferable to starting again with a unique scale or gauge. Although clearly a true 3'6" system would have wider appeal Japanese modellers would still face the problem of a standard gauge system co-existing with narrow gauge. I think it quite telling that Bemo now offers some of their narrow gauge models for regular HO track.

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Pacific231G

Pacific231G

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Interesting to know that Bandai is actually 4.8 in 1:300 scale. Does anyone have one? Are they battery powered?

I found some comments about it on the Battletech forum of all places http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=40470.0

It appears that it was only ever made by Bandai and used battery powered trains on plastic track. It's not clear that it was ever intended for railway modelling as such but in any case the arrival of  the even smaller but more deveoped T scale seems to have scuppered it

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PhilJ W

PhilJ W

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Interesting to know that Bandai is actually 4.8 in 1:300 scale. Does anyone have one? Are they battery powered?

I actually have one and yes it is battery powered using a hearing aid battery. The power unit is a 'make and break' motor giving two speeds very fast and stop. I have run it only once and then put it back in its box.

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PhilJ W

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. What I don't understand is why manufacturers of British prototype opted for the awkward scale ratio of 1:148 rather than the apparently simpler 1:150. Does anyone happen to know?

 

I think its because they use a ratio of 2.2 mm to the foot.

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