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So How about a Class 88 Dapol?

DRS Class 88 Modern Image Electric Locomotive Bi-modal New model Freight West Coast Mainline




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#26 letterspider

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 23:34

What is the biggest gamble here?

 

1/ The manufacturer intends to make a model but they don't know how many to make so they could make a loss

2/ We want a Class 88 but we don't want to put our money upfront in case we lose it in a project that fails

 

It seems to me that both of these problems could be solved if Dapol start up a crowdfunder for the 88? Something along the lines of the SLW Class 24.

 

Dapol get the numbers in advance and, if they are willing to be generous I am sure the cash advances too.

We crowdfunders get the assurance of a reliable manufacturer

 

There are potential losers - the box shifters - and of course there is a gamble on the exchange rate going against the investors.

 

Whichever way you look at it - if we want to see this Class 88 made by Dapol (or any other manufacturer for that matter) then they need to be absolutely certain they can make as many and sell as many as possible and the only way they can do that is to engage with the buyers directly the same way SLW have done.

 

My fear is that manufacturers like Dapol are going to continue to release as few models as possible. The UK economy is in very choppy waters at present. Saying that they are really showcasing themselves - Dapol seem determined to be manufacturer of the year - and in OO they would certainly get my vote  (despite my own disappointment with the 73).

I like the way they took on something as mundane as a DMU and the latest 68 and went to town on both.

 

So come on Dapol - talk to us!


Edited by letterspider, 19 February 2018 - 23:35 .

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#27 YesTor

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 00:27

We crowdfunders get the assurance of a reliable manufacturer

 

Some interesting points but I'm not sure I agree fully with the above statement.  Don't hear me wrong, the second batch of 68s proved to be spot-on.  However, the first batch came with their own set of issues, so personally I don't think I'd be prepared to take a risk on paying upfront/crowdfunding any new Dapol project any time soon.  I was also stung by buying a number of the first batch of 73s, only to return them all due to many of the well-documented errors; and as a result held back on the 68 until the second batch, and I am mighty pleased that I did.  So too I'm not overly confident that Dapol will get everything right on the 59.  Of course, I sincerely hope that they do and if so I will be buying a few, but I'm going to wait until I've witnessed the goods firsthand. 

 

So, with the above in mind would I be willing to pay upfront for an unseen first production run of a potential new Dapol locomotive?  In short, no.


Edited by YesTor, 20 February 2018 - 00:28 .

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#28 sirwilliamfrs

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 11:42

I guess sooner or later someone with the skills is going to convert a 68 to an 88. The bodyshell may be able to be modified but the biggest problem would be the livery, any one up for it? 



#29 martin_l_jones

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 18:48

Some very good points, always a gamble, even with well known faults the 68s sold out pretty quick, and they rectified the issue not only by replacing the bodies on the first run but the second run was spot on.

I think the Class 88 is a little different in terms of an issue with the lack of livery variation which is a bit restrictive, I’m sure when a new loco is launched it is always a risk. On a positive with this being duel mode running it will fit in on any layout and look correct with the panto down unlike previous electric release which don’t appear to sell well.

I think it’s great that Dapol release so many numbered variants but they also have to be wary not to flood the market which I think this second batch of 68s has.

I’m sure we’ll have an announcement in the near future and I wouldn’t be surprised if Dapol take the plunge as they seem to be leading the way in modern image locos and wagon releases by a long way.

Edited by martin_l_jones, 20 February 2018 - 18:50 .

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#30 letterspider

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 22:40

Some very good points, always a gamble, even with well known faults the 68s sold out pretty quick, and they rectified the issue not only by replacing the bodies on the first run but the second run was spot on.

I think the Class 88 is a little different in terms of an issue with the lack of livery variation which is a bit restrictive, I’m sure when a new loco is launched it is always a risk. On a positive with this being duel mode running it will fit in on any layout and look correct with the panto down unlike previous electric release which don’t appear to sell well.

I think it’s great that Dapol release so many numbered variants but they also have to be wary not to flood the market which I think this second batch of 68s has.

I’m sure we’ll have an announcement in the near future and I wouldn’t be surprised if Dapol take the plunge as they seem to be leading the way in modern image locos and wagon releases by a long way.

Yes I agree - being bimodal it seems a no brainer to buy this model as you can run it under the wires or not.



#31 YesTor

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 23:40

I think it’s great that Dapol release so many numbered variants but they also have to be wary not to flood the market which I think this second batch of 68s has.

 

A very good point indeed.  The rate that Dapol are going with the 68 they will run out of prototypes to model perhaps without achieving as good a return as maybe they could by simply pacing themselves more strategically.  As you say, nice that the alternatives are offered all at once but not necessarily the best move - if i recall correctly there were still Chiltern liveried 68s from the first batch on sale at reduced prices when the second lot came along.  I guess there's good reason why Hornby and Bachmann only tend to release one version of each livery at a time on any given prototype.


Edited by YesTor, 20 February 2018 - 23:41 .


#32 charliepetty

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 19:35

A very good point indeed.  The rate that Dapol are going with the 68 they will run out of prototypes to model perhaps without achieving as good a return as maybe they could by simply pacing themselves more strategically.  As you say, nice that the alternatives are offered all at once but not necessarily the best move - if i recall correctly there were still Chiltern liveried 68s from the first batch on sale at reduced prices when the second lot came along.  I guess there's good reason why Hornby and Bachmann only tend to release one version of each livery at a time on any given prototype.

Bring it on, as Legomanbiffo has recorded one!


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#33 letterspider

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 02:00

Some interesting points but I'm not sure I agree fully with the above statement.  Don't hear me wrong, the second batch of 68s proved to be spot-on.  However, the first batch came with their own set of issues, so personally I don't think I'd be prepared to take a risk on paying upfront/crowdfunding any new Dapol project any time soon.  I was also stung by buying a number of the first batch of 73s, only to return them all due to many of the well-documented errors; and as a result held back on the 68 until the second batch, and I am mighty pleased that I did.  So too I'm not overly confident that Dapol will get everything right on the 59.  Of course, I sincerely hope that they do and if so I will be buying a few, but I'm going to wait until I've witnessed the goods firsthand. 

 

So, with the above in mind would I be willing to pay upfront for an unseen first production run of a potential new Dapol locomotive?  In short, no.

 

Good point

but would we have seen these errors if crowdfunders had been asked to engage with the development from the first CAD designs, through to EP sample and tooling?

Other manufacturers have gone down this route and successfully achieved and delivered good models. It seems to me that these errors would be less likely to occur considering the experience of members on this forum; and you don't even need to be a rivet counter to spot mistakes. For example the windscreen wipers on the Dapol Class 73.

 

There are risks yes and like you I would rather hold back on pre-ordering from Dapol at the moment but this is bad for the manufacturers and in the end bad for the hobby if it pushes prices up and makes manufacturers less likely to innovate.

 

However crowdfunders would unlikely to be exposed ot the biggest danger of all - paying for a product that you would never receive.

 

Manufacturers it seems need a lot of help from us. They need cashflow and ideally interest free. We would be rewarded with the models we want - provided we are patient.



#34 Markwalker67

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 13:15

Dapol are looking at doing the class 88 at some point

Edited by Markwalker67, 29 March 2018 - 13:24 .

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#35 rob D2

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 21:36

Strange they got the licence before deciding if they make it or not ?

So it’s in one livery , does it do anything interesting or just intermodal stuff ?

#36 Craig1989

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 21:43

Strange they got the licence before deciding if they make it or not ?

So it’s in one livery , does it do anything interesting or just intermodal stuff ?

They have been used on flasks and I think moving engineers wagons between yards

#37 newbryford

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 22:28

Strange they got the licence before deciding if they make it or not ?

So it’s in one livery , does it do anything interesting or just intermodal stuff ?

 

Double headed diesel on flasks to Hartlepool.

https://www.flickr.c...-22MAv27-FTajgR

 

 

Railtours with a 68. The 88 was leading on diesel power.

88004 68016.jpg

 

It makes it a "desirable" model in quite a few folks eyes as although it's principally an electric loco, you do not need 25kV knitting to run one (or two) - especially on a short train such as a flask duty.

 

Cheers,

Mick


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#38 YesTor

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 22:31

So it’s in one livery , does it do anything interesting or just intermodal stuff ?

 

Surely just intermodal stuff is interesting...?  ;)


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#39 Ian_B

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 19:06

Strange they got the licence before deciding if they make it or not ?

So it’s in one livery , does it do anything interesting or just intermodal stuff ?

 

Intermodal is interesting and by acquiring the licence they secure the rights to the model allowing them to recoup csts for the 68 whilst stopping anyone else taking the 88.



#40 newbryford

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 21:20

Intermodal is interesting and by acquiring the licence they secure the rights to the model allowing them to recoup csts for the 68 whilst stopping anyone else taking the 88.

 

Way back when DJ Dave was Dapol Dave (I think in the 68 thread) , he did say that Dapol hadn't secured the licence for the 88.

 

Cheers,

Mick


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#41 YesTor

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 21:31

Way back when DJ Dave was Dapol Dave (I think in the 68 thread) , he did say that Dapol hadn't secured the licence for the 88.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Agreed, and I don't recall seeing/hearing it mentioned anywhere since that anything to the contrary had developed otherwise, which is why I adopted my stance in the discussion earlier on.  But still, others seem defiant that Dapol do indeed have the license, so I am/was happy to be corrected, if that's the case...



#42 rob D2

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Posted 08 April 2018 - 15:30

Surely just intermodal stuff is interesting...?  ;)


I find it a tad dull...

#43 QuarringtonColliery

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 08:19

Whilst an 88 model would be great especially since Dapol did an excellent job with the Class 68, I personally cannot see a model being made at present.

 

With only 10 locomotives delivered and no more orders on the horizon, recouping costs would be very hard. The current state of railfreight in the UK means orders for this type of hybrid locomotive is likely to be few and far between.

 

With the 68 fleet being in four current liveries (Yes this includes the Stadler built loco's), 34 locomotives and with DRS tendering for a further 10 locomotives the possibilities with this model are still big.



#44 Markwalker67

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 18:47

Whilst an 88 model would be great especially since Dapol did an excellent job with the Class 68, I personally cannot see a model being made at present.

With only 10 locomotives delivered and no more orders on the horizon, recouping costs would be very hard. The current state of railfreight in the UK means orders for this type of hybrid locomotive is likely to be few and far between.

With the 68 fleet being in four current liveries (Yes this includes the Stadler built loco's), 34 locomotives and with DRS tendering for a further 10 locomotives the possibilities with this model are still big.



#45 Markwalker67

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 18:59

When i spoke to Dapol at warley then said that then would look at the class 88 next year.
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#46 jools1959

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 16:19

As mentioned by others on here, I can’t personally see Dapol (or anyone else) producing the Class 88 for the above reasons as only ten loco’s and no livery variations, however, it never stopped Hornby producing the Clan 4-6-2.

These were a class of ten, again limited livery variation, restricted geography of operations but Hornby took the risk and was a instant success. I don’t know if they had glaring faults as I’m not remotely interested in steam but they sold out, rare as hens teeth to find and command high prices for good second hand models.

I asked the Hornby rep at a show about a reissue and he just smiled that knowing smile and said there are no plans. If Dapol did ever produce a Class 88, I’m pretty sure it would be a one off run with two or three different loco’s and that would be it, tooling would be put away never to see light again.

Just my thoughts!

#47 black and decker boy

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 18:09

An order for class 93s is expected from ROG which should be very similar to the class 88, slightly more diesel power.

Assuming common body shell, it doubles the number of locos and liveries!!
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#48 Markwalker67

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 18:15

Dapol are going to announce class 88 next year

#49 No Decorum

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 00:19

Dapol are going to announce class 88 next year

 

That sounds as if Dapol has announced the class 88 this year! If that is true, it will be very welcome.

 

Dapol has said that it intends to produce all of the 68s. Lovely as the models are, I should imagine that few of us have the desire and cash to buy every one. If Dapol thinks that is viable, I can see the 88 being regarded as viable too.


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#50 newbryford

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 00:31

When i spoke to Dapol at warley then said that then would look at the class 88 next year.

 

 

Dapol are going to announce class 88 next year

 

"Look at" is not quite the same as "announce"


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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: DRS, Class 88, Modern Image, Electric Locomotive, Bi-modal, New model, Freight, West Coast Mainline