Hornby Grange Class

[7007GreatWestern]

A few points on the above....

 

There is an excellent article on the differences between and evolution of different GWR tender types by a gentleman called Jim Champ:-

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-tenders.html

 

He modestly describes it as a "Beginner's Guide". My mind boggles at what the 'Expert Guide" would be like!

 

Regarding Hornby's claim that four Granges were initially attached to "tenders with higher sides and longer fenders": I am guessing (but don't know) that they are referring to the so-called "Intermediate" tenders. They are discussed in the above article.

 

Regarding the Hornby "Overton Grange" model I must contradict the post above - they were fitted with vacuum pump spindles as were all the early Sander Kan era releases of the Grange (e.g. Derwent Grange, Hardwick Grange, Frankton Grange). If anyone is interested I recently did a blog article on replacing the cylinders, slidebars, crossheads and connecting rods on an "Overton Grange" showing that they did feature the pump spindle:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2308/entry-20572-new-cylinders-sliders-crosshead-for-Hornby-grange/

 

Railroadbill is quite right when he says that the pump body and spindle are difficult to see behind the Automatic Train Control conduit. In real life they were far more prominent:-

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1806.htm

 

Contrast the above photo of the real "Crynant Grange" with Railroadbill's photo of the Hornby model. I believe that the designers of the model had to make certain trade-offs once the decision was made to represent the ATC conduit as a separately fitted component. If it were truly reduced to scale size it would be too fragile to handle by the operatives on the production line. The conduit is therefore overscale in thickness as is the clearance between the conduit and the lower edge of the running plate. The vacuum pump body has also been moved in from the edge of the running plate to make space for the overscale conduit. When the Hornby Hall was released a decade later as a "Design Clever" model, refinements like ATC conduit were dispensed with. That did however enable the designers to give greater prominence to the vacuum pump components:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103783-gwr-hall-class/?p=2083409

 

Andy.

[tarifa]

Regarding the Hornby "Overton Grange" model I must contradict the post above - they were fitted with vacuum pump spindles as were all the early Sander Kan era releases of the Grange (e.g. Derwent Grange, Hardwick Grange, Frankton Grange). If anyone is interested I recently did a blog article on replacing the cylinders, slidebars, crossheads and connecting rods on an "Overton Grange" showing that they did feature the pump spindle:-

 

Andy.

Hello Andy,

Just to be clear, I am looking at my Hornby "Overton Grange" and it is not fitted with the vacuum pump spindle.  There is a "slot" on the crosshead extension bar to fit one but for now I will give it a miss.  Can't see it when the loco is in motion.

 

Mike

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Mike

 

Overton Grange was manufactured by Hornby with vacuum pump and spindle.  Buckleberry Grange was the first 'new', model that came without a vacuum pump spindle (but it did have the correct shape crosshead and plastic cylinder).  The latest incarnation appears not to have the cylinder (more cost cutting).

 

..Just to be clear, I am looking at my Hornby "Overton Grange" and it is not fitted with the vacuum pump spindle.  ..

 

I wrote a Blog Post about fitting the spindle.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/880/entry-14897-a-more-refined-grange-%E2%80%93-Hornby-bucklebury-grange/

 

There were also a couple of other manufacturing faults to be dealt with - notably the body did not sit level at the cab end.  Having moved the digital chip to the tender Hornby had to reroute the wires beneath the cab but had failed to provide any recess / channel to accomodate them.

 

Easy sorted.

 

Ray

[tarifa]

Hello Mike

 

Overton Grange was manufactured by Hornby with vacuum pump and spindle.  Buckleberry Grange was the first 'new', model that came without a vacuum pump spindle (but it did have the correct shape crosshead and plastic cylinder).  The latest incarnation appears not to have the cylinder (more cost cutting).

There were also a couple of other manufacturing faults to be dealt with - notably the body did not sit level at the cab end.  Having moved the digital chip to the tender Hornby had to reroute the wires beneath the cab but had failed to provide any recess / channel to accomodate them.

 

Easy sorted.

 

Ray

Hello ray,

 

Interesting and knowledgeable comments but they don't change the fact that I'm still looking at my Overton Grange and it is still without the vacuum pump spindle, the state it was in when I bought it.

 

Maybe I have the exceptional model as the body sits square on the chassis even though it has sound chip installed in the loco.  I have the speaker wires running from the loco under the cab to the tender without them interfering with the alignment.

 

Mike

[7007GreatWestern]

Back in post #22 Railroadbill included a quote from the Hornby website:-

 

"Originally the class were paired with Churchward 3,500 gallon tenders, many coming from the withdrawn ‘4300’ class locomotives, including four with modified higher sides and longer fenders and in time Collett’s own 3,500 gallon tenders were used." 

 

​In a following post I speculated that the four tenders with modified high sides and long fenders may the the so called "Intermediate" type. I've had a dig around in my collection and turned up the following from Steam Days (January 2002) "Great Western Granges - A Case Of Better Late Than Never" by the very knowledgeable John Hodge:- 

 

"The 'Granges' ran exclusively with Churchward 3,500 gallon tenders from new until 1942, when 24 were paired with a Collett 4000 gallon tender by the end of the year.......In August 1944 No. 6811 became the first 'Grange' to be paired with a Collett 3,500 gallon tender (No. 2257) which then passed on to No. 6807 from November 1946 to June 1948. During 1948 these tenders progressively began to be paired with 'Granges', and gradually the whole of the seventeen tenders (Nos. 2242-68) were used with the class..."

 

Mr Hodge then goes on to kibosh my theory about Intermediate tenders being attached to the 'Granges':-

 

"None of the Intermediate tenders built by Collett were ever used with the 'Granges'."

 

All of which leaves unanswered Hornby's claim about the four non-standard tenders. Contributions from some of the GWR experts hereabouts would be appreciated.

 

As it happens four of early the 'Granges' did differ from the rest of the class, though the difference was not the tender. They were initially fitted with tapered cast iron chimneys without copper cap, possibly from the 4300 moguls they replaced:-

 

https://goo.gl/images/mCVgc3

 

As Micheal Caine might say, "Not a lot of people know that."  :-)

 

Andy.

Edited March 16, 2018 by 7007GreatWestern

[SMR CHRIS]

Hi all just a little info on the new Hornby Grange with a don’t believe what you see on the instruction sheet.

For DCC decoder fitting don’t open the loco to fit the decoder it is fitted in the tender.

 

When opening the box you will find a paper diagram on how to open the loco up with a diagram that show the location of the screws etc

 

It also show a 8 pin plug inside the loco on the chassis however this is not the case

The 8 pin plug is actually in the tender.

Also seems to show a tender of the type from the previous grange version the sheet could just be from the old model reprinted.

 

To open up the tender you will need to remove 2 screws located between the second and last axles these were found to have had some sort of glue on them and took some force to crack the bond.

Now you also have to be careful as there front handrails on the tender extend from the body into the chassis located in a very small hole and both were also found to have been glued and required some careful work with a fine tipped poker to tap the protruding tip from under the chassis to brake the glue bond

The tender top now comes away easily and a TCS DP2X-UK decoder can be installed into the plug and in this loco the marked Number 1 pin was actually correct (something quite random with Hornby modlels)

 

Care in refitting the body is required to locate the hand rails correctly so as to get the body to sit correctly on the chassis.

 

On test running the locos is very smooth without any decoder tuning

The only issue noted was the Center wheel/Axle of the tender is lower than the outer axles alignment, all the tender weight is therefore on it, so the tender rocks Slightly on the centre wheel set something that may cause issues if doing a lot of tender first running

 

Photos below of the installed decoder with loco on test on a Australian Layout.

 

[The Great Bear]

For DCC decoder fitting don’t open the loco to fit the decoder it is fitted in the tender.

 

 

Could be faulty memory, but could have sworn the older ones the socket was in the loco. Having it in the tender would make fitting sound a lot easier...

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi GB

 

As mentioned above Buckleberry Grane had the chip in the tender - there are pictures on my Blog Post showing where the palstic body moulding beneath the cab has to be pared away to allow the cab to sit properly over the extra wires to the tender plug.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/880/entry-14897-a-more-refined-grange-%E2%80%93-Hornby-bucklebury-grange/

 

Could be faulty memory, but could have sworn the older ones the socket was in the loco. Having it in the tender would make fitting sound a lot easier...

 

There are also some pictures of the engine deconstructed where you can make out the white plug fitting to the tender socket.

 

Ray

[SMR CHRIS]

Could be faulty memory, but could have sworn the older ones the socket was in the loco. Having it in the tender would make fitting sound a lot easier...

No your memory isn’t faulty the previous models had the decoder 8pin socket on the loco Chassis

With the zink deterioration any attempt on removing the body would often result in several pieces of loco chassis covering the bench.

Edited March 17, 2018 by SMR CHRIS

[OnTheBranchline]

Are they still pretty light? That's the one thing I really noticed when I bought a Hardwick Grange a few years ago.

[Silver Sidelines]

Just when you thought things were getting better.

 

Ray

[7007GreatWestern]

Just when you thought things were getting better

 

Ray

 

Ray,

 

Just to be clear, is the above photo one of the newly released models (presumably Llanvair Grange)?

 

Andy.

[Silver Sidelines]

Yes Andy you are right - Llanvair Grange as it arrived in the Post this morning.

 

This is my second attempt at making a satisfactory purchase.

 

....Just to be clear, is the above photo one of the newly released models (presumably Llanvair Grange)?y.

 

Third time lucky do we think?

Ray

[IMB]

My Grange was supplied with an out of date Operating & Maintenance instructions, showing old style loco/tender drawbar with no DCC leaflet included.

 

I have spent the last week trying to get some sense from Hornby but until now had only managed to establish that socket is in tender. From Chris's comment & photos the tender appears be similar to the Hall Churchward tender but with coal load being different.

 

18 months late and inadequate instructions - I this was supposed to be issued when the 'betting shop bloke' was in charge.

 

Hopefully I can now fit my chip without damaging the model

 

Regards 

[SMR CHRIS]

Just when you thought things were getting betterDSC03887.JPG.Ray

Yep send it back.

 

the body is a tight fit my guess is that the wiring is trapped somewhere and will never be right after having spent months like that in transit

[The Stationmaster]

Back in post #22 Railroadbill included a quote from the Hornby website:-

 

"Originally the class were paired with Churchward 3,500 gallon tenders, many coming from the withdrawn ‘4300’ class locomotives, including four with modified higher sides and longer fenders and in time Collett’s own 3,500 gallon tenders were used." 

 

​In a following post I speculated that the four tenders with modified high sides and long fenders may the the so called "Intermediate" type. I've had a dig around in my collection and turned up the following from Steam Days (January 2002) "Great Western Granges - A Case Of Better Late Than Never" by the very knowledgeable John Hodge:- 

 

"The 'Granges' ran exclusively with Churchward 3,500 gallon tenders from new until 1942, when 24 were paired with a Collett 4000 gallon tender by the end of the year.......In August 1944 No. 6811 became the first 'Grange' to be paired with a Collett 3,500 gallon tender (No. 2257) which then passed on to No. 6807 from November 1946 to June 1948. During 1948 these tenders progressively began to be paired with 'Granges', and gradually the whole of the seventeen tenders (Nos. 2242-68) were used with the class..."

 

Mr Hodge then goes on to kibosh my theory about Intermediate tenders being attached to the 'Granges':-

 

"None of the Intermediate tenders built by Collett were ever used with the 'Granges'."

 

All of which leaves unanswered Hornby's claim about the four non-standard tenders. Contributions from some of the GWR experts hereabouts would be appreciated.

 

As it happens four of early the 'Granges' did differ from the rest of the class, though the difference was not the tender. They were initially fitted with tapered cast iron chimneys without copper cap, possibly from the 4300 moguls they replaced:-

 

https://goo.gl/images/mCVgc3

 

As Micheal Caine might say, "Not a lot of people know that."  :-)

 

Andy.

 

The one thing I would say in connection with many GWR?Wr things loco related is 'never say never' because that can be the time when somebody turns up a photo.  Hence, perhaps, no mention of Hawksworth 4,000 gallon tenders appearing behind a 'Grange' although photos of such a pairing do exist.  So did Hornby access some photos or did they read what someone else had written (probably the latter) when doing research?

 

Alas what does seem to be wrong tender wise is the pairing of 6825 with an earlier tender as according to all the phots of it which I can find (including my own) it very definitely spent its last years, in fully lined green with the final BR emblem on its Collett 3,500 gallon tender.  However there is one published photo of it, allegedly taken in 1958, of it paired with a 4,000 gallon tender so is the photo date incorrect or was there a tender swop?  as ever reliably dated photos are an essential aid if you're trying to get something as right as possible.

[railroadbill]

A few points on the above....

 

There is an excellent article on the differences between and evolution of different GWR tender types by a gentleman called Jim Champ:-

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-tenders.html

 

He modestly describes it as a "Beginner's Guide". My mind boggles at what the 'Expert Guide" would be like!

 

Regarding Hornby's claim that four Granges were initially attached to "tenders with higher sides and longer fenders": I am guessing (but don't know) that they are referring to the so-called "Intermediate" tenders. They are discussed in the above article.

 

Regarding the Hornby "Overton Grange" model I must contradict the post above - they were fitted with vacuum pump spindles as were all the early Sander Kan era releases of the Grange (e.g. Derwent Grange, Hardwick Grange, Frankton Grange). If anyone is interested I recently did a blog article on replacing the cylinders, slidebars, crossheads and connecting rods on an "Overton Grange" showing that they did feature the pump spindle:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/2308/entry-20572-new-cylinders-sliders-crosshead-for-Hornby-grange/

 

Railroadbill is quite right when he says that the pump body and spindle are difficult to see behind the Automatic Train Control conduit. In real life they were far more prominent:-

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1806.htm

 

Contrast the above photo of the real "Crynant Grange" with Railroadbill's photo of the Hornby model. I believe that the designers of the model had to make certain trade-offs once the decision was made to represent the ATC conduit as a separately fitted component. If it were truly reduced to scale size it would be too fragile to handle by the operatives on the production line. The conduit is therefore overscale in thickness as is the clearance between the conduit and the lower edge of the running plate. The vacuum pump body has also been moved in from the edge of the running plate to make space for the overscale conduit. When the Hornby Hall was released a decade later as a "Design Clever" model, refinements like ATC conduit were dispensed with. That did however enable the designers to give greater prominence to the vacuum pump components:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103783-gwr-hall-class/?p=2083409

 

Andy.

Thanks for the information, Andy, and for your later post  #30. The Jim Champ tender site is very interesting. One point he makes is that GW tenders were repaired separately from the locos during heavy repairs - when the loco was ready it was attached to the next available appropriate type tender from the repaired tender pool.  Also tender bodies (which could need longer repairs) were lifted off the chassis which could quite easily have a different repaired tender body fitted. So since there appear to be an earlier shallow frame and later deeper frame chassis for 3500 gal tenders, it's difficult to say exactly what tender any Grange had at a particular time without a dated side on photo. 

I shall have to do some more research on my chosen loco....

 

 

Also Frankton Grange model, I found that the pump spindle had dropped out of the pump moulding so had to push it back. Think it will need something fixed across back of pump body to keep it in place.

 

 

 

Posted this at same moment as The Stationmaster so hadn't read his post #41 which makes some similar points.

Bill.

Edited March 18, 2018 by railroadbill

[7007GreatWestern]

The one thing I would say in connection with many GWR?Wr things loco related is 'never say never' because that can be the time when somebody turns up a photo.  Hence, perhaps, no mention of Hawksworth 4,000 gallon tenders appearing behind a 'Grange' although photos of such a pairing do exist.  So did Hornby access some photos or did they read what someone else had written (probably the latter) when doing research?

 

 

Hi Mike et al,

 

I've done John Hodge a disservice in Post #30 by not going on to quote what he had to say about the Granges being attached to Hawksworth tender, but I did so only for the sake of clarity since that happened much later in their careers.

 

The quote from the Hornby website appears to say that four Granges were allocated non standard tenders when new, the operative word here being "originally":-

 

"Originally the class were paired with Churchward 3,500 gallon tenders, many coming from the withdrawn ‘4300’ class locomotives, including four with modified higher sides and longer fenders and in time Collett’s own 3,500 gallon tenders were used  From 1942, Collett’s larger 4,000 gallon tenders were used and, just occasionally, Hawksworth straight sided tenders.." 

 

​I'm not saying that either Hornby or Mr. Hodge are definitely wrong. I'm simply puzzled that there was no reference to it in Mr. Hodge's very detailed article and I'm interested to know what tenders Hornby are referring to. Given the depth and breadth of expertise on RMWeb I'd be amazed if someone hereabouts didn't know ;-)

 

In case anyone is interested, John Hodge's article has the following to say about 'Granges' being paired with Hawksworth tenders. It occurred on three occasions. In September 1953 6863 'Dolhywel Grange' was attached to Hawksworth tender No. 4087 and the pair remained together until the loco emerged from Swindon in August '54. 6853 Morehampton Grange was paired with Hawksworth tender No. 4037 at Tyseley for the grand total of twelve days in March/April '54 while its own tender was repaired. Finally 6844 'Penhydd Grange' was paired with Hawksworth tender No. 4008 from July '62, probably until withdrawal in April '64.

 

​Mr. Hodge closes his account with the following caveat which agrees with Mike's point about the fallibility of official records and the importance of photographic evidence:-

 

"Some caution must be observed in treating official tender details as sacrosanct as some changes never appear to have been officially recorded and there are no details after 1964."

 

Andy.

[7007GreatWestern]

 

Alas what does seem to be wrong tender wise is the pairing of 6825 with an earlier tender as according to all the phots of it which I can find (including my own) it very definitely spent its last years, in fully lined green with the final BR emblem on its Collett 3,500 gallon tender.  However there is one published photo of it, allegedly taken in 1958, of it paired with a 4,000 gallon tender so is the photo date incorrect or was there a tender swop?  as ever reliably dated photos are an essential aid if you're trying to get something as right as possible.

 

 6825 seen at Par, date unrecorded:-

 

https://flic.kr/p/Ps3zQz

 

Most the photos I can find of it are from '63 and it was attached to a Collett 3,500 gallon tender at that time.

 

Andy.

[toboldlygo]

 6825 seen at Par, date unrecorded:-

 

https://flic.kr/p/Ps3zQz

 

Most the photos I can find of it are from '63 and it was attached to a Collett 3,500 gallon tender at that time.

 

Andy.

 

Photo shows a 83A Shedcode which is St Blazey - she was there between September 1960 and October 1961.

[The Stationmaster]

 6825 seen at Par, date unrecorded:-

 

https://flic.kr/p/Ps3zQz

 

Most the photos I can find of it are from '63 and it was attached to a Collett 3,500 gallon tender at that time.

 

Andy.

 

Very interesting thanks - must be the photo Hornby used (and one I didn't find).  So going on definite known dates plus one probably incorrect date between c.1957/58 and at least the date of my picture (below) taken on 23/6/63 6825 would appear to have worked with tenders of 3 different types, good old Swindon standardisation at work!.

Photo shows a 83A Shedcode which is St Blazey - she was there between September 1960 and October 1961.

 

A slight typographical error there I'm afraid - 83A at that time was Newton Abbot;   St Blazey was 83E

 

 

[Silver Sidelines]

....and by '63 it has gained over head warning plates. Must have been in preparation for electrification of the WR mainline!

 

Ray

Edited March 18, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[toboldlygo]

Very interesting thanks - must be the photo Hornby used (and one I didn't find).  So going on definite known dates plus one probably incorrect date between c.1957/58 and at least the date of my picture (below) taken on 23/6/63 6825 would appear to have worked with tenders of 3 different types, good old Swindon standardisation at work!.

 

A slight typographical error there I'm afraid - 83A at that time was Newton Abbot;   St Blazey was 83E

 

 

6825 23:06:63.jpg

 

My typo, I've been looking at shedcodes for other loco's and got my A & E mixed up and at a second look it could be a G.

 

83G is the shed code on the model, so that dates it to between either August 1950 to September 1960 or October 61 to Jun 62.

 

If I'm reading the tender numbers right she was attached to Churchward tenders between October 48 and May 57 and late crest didn't come until 1957. So unless there's an unknown tender swap (it did happen), that presumably dates the Hornby version of Llanvair Grange to between April and May 1957..

 

Someone hand me a large Whisky...

Edited March 18, 2018 by toboldlygo

[7007GreatWestern]

Another nice photo of 6825 in action attached to a Churchward 3,500 gallon unit with post '56 emblem.

 

https://goo.gl/BAvCnV

 

Sadly there is no caption detail whatsoever. The healthy mix of blood & custard and maroon stock suggest mid to late 50s to me, which ties in with James' estimate of '57.

 

Does anybody recognise the location?

 

Andy.

[Ian Hargrave]

Another nice photo of 6825 in action attached to a Churchward 3,500 gallon unit with post '56 emblem.

 

https://goo.gl/BAvCnV

 

Sadly there is no caption detail whatsoever. The healthy mix of blood & custard and maroon stock suggest mid to late 50s to me, which ties in with James' estimate of '57.

 

Does anybody recognise the location?

 

Andy.

A guess....between Bodmin Road and Liskeard. The date could be 1957-1959/60