Hornby Grange Class

[railroadbill]

I wonder (and this is a dangerous generalisation!)  that close to the end of steam remaining exGW  4-6-0s were likely to get 4000 gal tenders when scrapping began in earnest, and they just picked the better condition ones to use rather than repair smaller ones.

 

If anyone comes across a decent pic of 6838 Goodmoor Grange around 1960-62 showing a clear view of the tender I'd be very grateful. I've come across 5 in books I've got and the internet but they are all 3/4 view from front and apart from showing a "smaller" tender  it isn't possible to be completely sure of the exact tender it had.

 

6838 certainly finished up with a 4000 gal tender, but the pic I found of that shows it with no nameplates either and really run down. 

[gwrrob]

The Lawrence Water's book on the Granges is very good and useful for most of the class in photos.

[toboldlygo]

I wonder (and this is a dangerous generalisation!)  that close to the end of steam remaining exGW  4-6-0s were likely to get 4000 gal tenders when scrapping began in earnest, and they just picked the better condition ones to use rather than repair smaller ones.

 

If anyone comes across a decent pic of 6838 Goodmoor Grange around 1960-62 showing a clear view of the tender I'd be very grateful. I've come across 5 in books I've got and the internet but they are all 3/4 view from front and apart from showing a "smaller" tender  it isn't possible to be completely sure of the exact tender it had.

 

6838 certainly finished up with a 4000 gal tender, but the pic I found of that shows it with no nameplates either and really run down. 

 

According to the photo and caption on page 92 of the Book of the Grange 4-6-0s, she's running with a Churchward Tender (records weren't kept in detail after December 63) from April 64 till withdrawal (Nov 65)

[7007GreatWestern]

 

If anyone comes across a decent pic of 6838 Goodmoor Grange around 1960-62 showing a clear view of the tender I'd be very grateful. I've come across 5 in books I've got and the internet but they are all 3/4 view from front and apart from showing a "smaller" tender  it isn't possible to be completely sure of the exact tender it had.

 

Haven't found anything for 60-62 but have you seen these pictures from September '63?

 

https://flic.kr/p/7k1o2W

https://flic.kr/p/7rC6Ah

https://flic.kr/p/7DEcT2

 

There's also a colour picture which is claimed as '63 (but I have my doubts):-

 

https://flic.kr/p/jmtgyH

 

In all cases the location is Shrewsbury.

 

There's also a photo of the loco dated 1958 showing the loco attached to a Churchward 3,500 gallon tender on e-Bay at the moment.

 

Andy.

Edited March 18, 2018 by 7007GreatWestern

[Ian Hargrave]

Haven't found anything for 60-62 but have you seen these pictures from September '63?

 

https://flic.kr/p/7k1o2W

https://flic.kr/p/7rC6Ah

https://flic.kr/p/7DEcT2

 

There's also a colour picture which is claimed as '63 (but I have my doubts):-

 

https://flic.kr/p/jmtgyH

 

In all cases the location is Shrewsbury.

 

There's also a photo of the loco dated 1958 showing the loco attached to a Churchward 3,500 gallon tender on e-Bay at the moment.

 

Andy.

The date on all of these is questionable.By 1963,Shrewsbury had transferred to the LMR and its allocation carried the 6D plate..even its Manors.My own observation during a Warwickshire Railway Society shed visit shows 7801 as 6D....29/09/1963.The excursion from New Street to Crewe and Shrewsbury was 46245 hauled.

[railroadbill]

Eureka! Thanks to having a  Flicka account I did a search there and came up with some more 6838 pics. One, taken at Shrewsbury 0n 298/9/63 shows the tender very clearly. 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/4364305179/in/photolist-7k1o2W-7DEcT2-7rC6Ah-o2JC6Y-o4tJvK-s7ne1z

 

Now this appears to be a Churchward tender body with flush rivets - I'm struggling here but it appears  Churchward tenders could be flush riveted (early) or snaphead riveted (later) but Collett ones were all snap head. Please tell me if I'm wrong about this.

 

The chassis in the picture appears to be a shallow frame one, the spring hangers finish below the frames.  So the tender is really an early spec .

 

Therefore:

 

I can use a Hornby 3500 gal flush riveted tender body (this is from the spares box for a 28xx)  with a shallow tender frame (this is a Grange one from Peter's spares)  because the snap headed rivet tender on Llanvair Grange would be incorrect for 6838.

 

My starting point is like this:

 

 

 

So instead of getting Llanvair grange and just fitting replacement plates, which I thought I could do,  I can get any (second hand?) Grange from the,usual sources, respray and line the tender, get the whole loco into BR  late emblem livery. Then fit plates....For some more work I will have a historically accurate model of a particular loco at a particular time.

 

 

ps on the Hornby web site under Grange there are listed a variety of parts for GW tender chassis etc. which could be of use to GW modellers. Could be worth a look.

 

 

 

[7007GreatWestern]

I'd be interested see how you secure that tender body to the frames. I think that body is for the old tender drive model and the frames are from the latest Hornby Curchward 3,500 gallon tender model.

 

Andy.

[railroadbill]

Spot on, Andy.

 

 

The body does fit tight and flush against the chassis.

 

 

 

Think the body is for an old tender drive model. I thought it might have been too wide but when I measured the width with a micrometer it is the correct dimension.

 

There are some pillars on the Grange chassis that securing screws pass through from underneath, so I'll glue strips of plasticard across the tender body above those and drill for the screws.  My steam locos run on DC so not really bothered about fitting chips etc.

 

 

 

[railroadbill]

To revisit the vacuum pump issue, this is how Bachmann did it on their Hall class.

 

 

The pump moulding is much more prominent and the rod is represented by a metal strip. This had come out of the slot in the pump as well!

 

 

[railroadbill]

Thanks 7007GreatWestern, T-B-G,  Ian Hargrave,  gwrrob,  for all the pointers to photos of 6838 and information about Granges. It's all been very useful and historically interesting.

Even managed to buy a small tendered Grange on e-bay this evening for a good price so hopefully before long the nameplates for 6838 that I've had for years will finally be running round the layout attached to an appropriate Grange!

Edited March 18, 2018 by railroadbill

[7007GreatWestern]

Hi Railroadbill,

 

The following advice is not something I've done myself yet, but I imagine would be 'doable' and I intend to do it on some of my 28xx tenders. An alternative way to get a flush riveted Churchward tender would be to take the new Hornby snaphead riveted tender body and file away all the rivets using emery board and then fine 'wet & dry' once the worst of the rivets are gone. I've managed to achieved very high quality result using 'wet & dry' but it is a slow and laborious process. As you will have seen from the photos of 'Goodmoor Grange' even a flush riveted tender has a few snaphead rivets, I make it about twelve on the photo that turned up earlier:-

 

https://flic.kr/p/7DEcT2

 

Once you have got the tender side perfectly smooth you could replace those dozen rivets with so called "Archer's Dots" which are resin surface details on a decal film. Here's what I mean:-

 

http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88014.html

 

As you can see these are made by an American company mainly for use by military modellers. That hasn't stopped some enterprising souls hereabouts using them for railways:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73272-archers-rivet-transfers/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/2599-archers-transfers-rivets/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91698-raised-rivet-transfers/

 

They aren't cheap but the consensus seems to be they are very good. They can be obtained by ordering direct from Archers in the US of from DCC Supplies in the UK:-

 

https://www.dccsupplies.com/cl-579/3d-surface-detailing.htm

 

Andy.

[The Stationmaster]

Another nice photo of 6825 in action attached to a Churchward 3,500 gallon unit with post '56 emblem.

 

https://goo.gl/BAvCnV

 

Sadly there is no caption detail whatsoever. The healthy mix of blood & custard and maroon stock suggest mid to late 50s to me, which ties in with James' estimate of '57.

 

Does anybody recognise the location?

 

Andy.

 

Looks to be the eastern end of the Cornish mainline somewhere - it fits a number of locations, shame the milepost isn't legible.

 

Now the dating gets interesting.  Using the dates in 'The Book of the Granges' 6825 had a Heavy Intermediate at Newton Abbot in April 1956 then Heavy Generals at Swindon in July 1958 and October 1961.  A seemingly reliably dated photo in the same book shows it with the 3,500 Collett tender at Penzance on Good Friday 1962 with the paintwork in very good condition and with overhead warning flashes so clearly post the October 1961 shopping date.  Assuming (perhaps a little dangerously) that the tenders were only swopped at works visits then it seems logical that it acquired the Churchward tender when leaving Swindon in July 1958 and that it received a boiler with a three row superheater at that shopping as well. And that it got the Collett 3,500 tender at Swindon in 1961 but still had a boiler with a three row superheater.  Equally the painting in fully lined green with the second style of BR emblem on the tender fits with the 1958 and 1961 shopping dates; even if had been been repainted in lined green at Newton Abbot in 1956 (unlikely in my view) that predated the reintroduction of lined green livery for a wider range of engines and predated by around a year the introduction of the second style of emblem.  The change to a boiler with a three row superheater also matches the 1958 Swindon date as the boiler would have been unlikely to be changed at a Heavy Intermediate.

 

This means the picture suggested to be 1958 in 'The Book of the Granges' and showing the engine with a 4,000 gallon tender and a two row superheater was taken before the 1958 visit to Swindon (the book has two pictures of it with a 4,000 gallon tender, with one very obviously much earlier in the 1950s.  And that the pictures showing it with a Churchward tender in late emblem lined green were taken between its Swindon shoppings in April 1958 and October 1961 while those with the 3,500 Collett tender were taken after its October 1961 visit to Swindon.

[The Stationmaster]

The date on all of these is questionable.By 1963,Shrewsbury had transferred to the LMR and its allocation carried the 6D plate..even its Manors.My own observation during a Warwickshire Railway Society shed visit shows 7801 as 6D....29/09/1963.The excursion from New Street to Crewe and Shrewsbury was 46245 hauled.

 

Ian, 6838 was a Pontypool Road engine from October 1960 to June 1964.

 

 

Hi Railroadbill,

 

The following advice is not something I've done myself yet, but I imagine would be 'doable' and I intend to do it on some of my 28xx tenders. An alternative way to get a flush riveted Churchward tender would be to take the new Hornby snaphead riveted tender body and file away all the rivets using emery board and then fine 'wet & dry' once the worst of the rivets are gone. I've managed to achieved very high quality result using 'wet & dry' but it is a slow and laborious process. As you will have seen from the photos of 'Goodmoor Grange' even a flush riveted tender has a few snaphead rivets, I make it about twelve on the photo that turned up earlier:-

 

https://flic.kr/p/7DEcT2

 

Once you have got the tender side perfectly smooth you could replace those dozen rivets with so called "Archer's Dots" which are resin surface details on a decal film. Here's what I mean:-

 

http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88014.html

 

As you can see these are made by an American company mainly for use by military modellers. That hasn't stopped some enterprising souls hereabouts using them for railways:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73272-archers-rivet-transfers/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/2599-archers-transfers-rivets/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91698-raised-rivet-transfers/

 

They aren't cheap but the consensus seems to be they are very good. They can be obtained by ordering direct from Archers in the US of from DCC Supplies in the UK:-

 

https://www.dccsupplies.com/cl-579/3d-surface-detailing.htm

 

Andy.

 

Easy enough on a tender for a 28XX but for a 'Grange' in late conditions it means a repaint and lining of course.  Which is a confounded nuisance as 6838 very much 'fits my bill' as one of the Pontypool Road 'Granges'.

[7007GreatWestern]

Looks to be the eastern end of the Cornish mainline somewhere - it fits a number of locations, shame the milepost isn't legible.

 

 

Mike et al,

 

I've bought the photo from Transport Treasury as a digital download so I can zoom in. The loco shed plate reads 83G Penzance. The milepost appears to read 317/11.

 

Andy.

Edited March 19, 2018 by 7007GreatWestern

[7007GreatWestern]

Sorry for going at a tangent.....I hope the OP will oblige.

 

Does anybody know whether GWR mileposts in the south west were changed with the completion of the Castle Cary cut-off in 1906 or where they left in 'old money' (ie measured via Bristol)?

 

If the latter then according to the working timetable for 1949 (below) Penzance was at milepost 326 from Paddington. If the former it was at milepost 306 from Paddington.

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=613

 

Andy.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry for going at a tangent.....I hope the OP will oblige.

 

Does anybody know whether GWR mileposts in the south west were changed with the completion of the Castle Cary cut-off in 1906 or where they left in 'old money' (ie measured via Bristol)?

 

If the latter then according to the working timetable for 1949 (below) Penzance was at milepost 326 from Paddington. If the former it was at milepost 306 from Paddington.

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=613

 

Andy.

 

The mileposts were not changed west of Cogload.  That mileage puts it a couple of miles east of Hayle and just to the east of Angarrack Viaduct but that doesn't fit - are sure it's 317 and not 307?

[railroadbill]

Hi Railroadbill,

 

The following advice is not something I've done myself yet, but I imagine would be 'doable' and I intend to do it on some of my 28xx tenders. An alternative way to get a flush riveted Churchward tender would be to take the new Hornby snaphead riveted tender body and file away all the rivets using emery board and then fine 'wet & dry' once the worst of the rivets are gone. I've managed to achieved very high quality result using 'wet & dry' but it is a slow and laborious process. As you will have seen from the photos of 'Goodmoor Grange' even a flush riveted tender has a few snaphead rivets, I make it about twelve on the photo that turned up earlier:-

 

https://flic.kr/p/7DEcT2

 

Once you have got the tender side perfectly smooth you could replace those dozen rivets with so called "Archer's Dots" which are resin surface details on a decal film. Here's what I mean:-

 

http://www.archertransfers.com/AR88014.html

 

As you can see these are made by an American company mainly for use by military modellers. That hasn't stopped some enterprising souls hereabouts using them for railways:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73272-archers-rivet-transfers/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/2599-archers-transfers-rivets/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91698-raised-rivet-transfers/

 

They aren't cheap but the consensus seems to be they are very good. They can be obtained by ordering direct from Archers in the US of from DCC Supplies in the UK:-

 

https://www.dccsupplies.com/cl-579/3d-surface-detailing.htm

 

Andy.

Thanks, Andy.  I haven't tried the Archer rivet transfers, the results in the other RMweb threads  look very good, so worth a go. On another project, I want to add rivet detail to a Peppercorn A1 pacific tender, where Doncaster locos had snap head rivets and Darlington ones flush.  Doing 2 locos  by modifying Railroad Tornados to BR locos, both Darlington built ones with flush tenders. Another with snaphead rivetted tender would be good, so Archer transfers could be my solution there to add rivets.

 

Back to the Grange, the older Hornby tender top has just 4 rivets per side instead of the 12 in pic https://flic.kr/p/7DEcT2   so just a few extra needed.  Also, in that same picture of the tender of 6838, there is a goal post shaped structure at the front of the tender - haven't noticed one  of those before, was it to attach a tarpaulin to perhaps?

 

Final thought, since Granges were an 80 strong class built in a short period of time (unlike say Castles where there were various detail differences over the years)  I'd assumed the locos were all much the same, However The Stationmaster pointed out talking about 6825 that it had had a 3 row superheater boiler fitted - would this just involve a bigger cover or were there other detail differences to be aware of with Granges over the years?

Edited March 19, 2018 by railroadbill

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks, Andy.  I haven't tried the Archer rivet transfers, the results in the other RMweb threads  look very good, so worth a go. On another project, I want to add rivet detail to a Peppercorn A1 pacific tender, where Doncaster locos had snap head rivets and Darlington ones flush.  Doing 2 locos  by modifying Railroad Tornados to BR locos, both Darlington built ones with flush tenders. Another with snaphead rivetted tender would be good, so Archer transfers could be my solution there to add rivets.

 

Back to the Grange, the older Hornby tender top has just 4 rivets per side instead of the 12 in pic https://flic.kr/p/7DEcT2   so just a few extra needed.  Also, in that same picture of the tender of 6838, there is a goal post shaped structure at the front of the tender - haven't noticed one  of those before, was it to attach a tarpaulin to perhaps?

 

Final thought, since Granges were an 80 strong class built in a short period of time (unlike say Castles where there were various detail differences over the years)  I'd assumed the locos were all much the same, However The Stationmaster pointed out talking about 6825 that it had had a 3 row superheater boiler fitted - would this just involve a bigger cover or were there other detail differences to be aware of with Granges over the years?

 

The main changes were tenders - as seen above - boilers going from one type to the other and no doubt sometimes going back again, and chimneys. 

[railroadbill]

Thanks Mike, looks like the tender is going to be the most obvious thing to get right for a particular loco in a particular period.

[7007GreatWestern]

Hi Railroadbill,

 

The Granges weren't involved in the postwar war oil-burning programme which left non standard features on locos even after conversion back to coal. Additionally I don't recall them being subject to testing by Sam Ell at Swindon, probably for the very good reason that they were considered excellent locomotives throughout their careers. Having said that some of them came to inherit the AK pattern boiler resulting from Mr. Ell's testing of 7916 "Mobberley Hall" and all finished their careers with the narrow chimney without capuchon resulting from those experiments, the so-called 'ID' chimney. There's a nice article on the Masterpiece Models website about the different chimney types used on Halls and Granges:-

 

http://www.masterpiecemodels.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/105-hall-and-grange-chimneys

 

As always, there is no substitute for actual photographic evidence if you wish to depict a particular loco at a particular time. Here's just a selection of photos,  all of them having minor differences of tender, superheater cover, electrification symbols and coat of arms:-

 

https://goo.gl/images/DQnUh3

https://goo.gl/images/ojk85h

https://goo.gl/images/oJhnAn

https://goo.gl/images/zLE3gb

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls3836.htm

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Collett-Locomotives/Collett-460-designs/Grange-Class/68606879-Built-1939/i-MjwtNFm/A

 

Andy.

[LBRJ]

The mileposts were not changed west of Cogload.  That mileage puts it a couple of miles east of Hayle and just to the east of Angarrack Viaduct but that doesn't fit - are sure it's 317 and not 307?

 

It doesn't look that much like anywhere in Cornwall to me, especially not with the possible milepost - Not that I have a photographic memory of the whole road

It could be somewhere down from Respryn towards Lostwthiel

[Silver Sidelines]

IT is funny that you should say that

 

I have never been to Cornwall so shouldn't really comment - but it is very green and leafy looking - more like middle England?

 

It doesn't look that much like anywhere in Cornwall to me, especially not with the possible milepost - Not that I have a photographic memory of the whole road

It could be somewhere down from Respryn towards LostwthielRay

[7007GreatWestern]

Regarding the cornish milepost - the image is very indistinct and I can quite believe 317 is incorrect - i did say "appears"!

 

I have a question for Ray, Railroadbill and anyone else who has both the latest 2018 releases of the Grange and earlier 'Sander Kan' releases with the older type of loco-tender connection. Do the loco bodies and tender tops of the old models fit on the new chassis and do the various screw holes line up?

 

Andy.

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Andy

 

I think so!  I reviewed Bucklebury Grange when it first appeared - the first Refined Grange!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/880/entry-14897-a-more-refined-grange-%E2%80%93-Hornby-bucklebury-grange/

 

There are two pictures below which I didn't use for my Blog which might assist.

 

I cannot comment on Llanvair Grange as it is back to the retailer who has suggested that he might not be able to supply me with a satisfactory replacement.  Is that 'code' for he is getting fed up with this fellow who keeps returning items?

 

 

Overton Grange - I think

 

 

Bucklebury Grange

 

Regards

 

Ray

Edited March 20, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[7007GreatWestern]

Hi Ray,

 

Thanks for the photo of the dismantled locos. I hope you don't mind but I have marked one up to show how they are attached for the benefit of anyone who hasn't taken one of these apart:-

 

 

 

There is a groove in the base of the block on the forward part of the chassis (red circle). That hooks over the front edge of the hollow smokebox saddle (red line). Once that is in position the rear of the chassis can be pushed up into the body. The hole in the back of the body under the fall-plate (lower green circle) should then line up with the threaded hole in the boss on the rear of the chassis (upper green circle). If they don't it's probably because you've trapped wires under the cab.

 

That's identical to the old Sander Kan models with the DCC socket in the loco. There should be no problem swapping loco bodies between the older and newer models.

 

Has anyone taken one of the tenders apart on the new models? Do they differ from the old models in terms of the position of the screw mountings? Any photos/personal experience gratefully received!

 

Andy.