Most unusual signal post ever?

[73c]

Whilst looking for background info, 1950's/60's track layout for Blackheath station in SE London, I came across this photo.

Pre 3rd rail, so guessing 1920's maybe.

Anyone have any photo's of similar oddly mounted signal's

As an aside, if anyone has photo's or track diagrams, what was in the large yard there?

Had heard that 12 coach summer specials were berthed there before returning to the coast to collect passengers.

 

https://boroughphotos.org/lewisham/blackheath-station-8/

[Fat Controller]

Whilst looking for background info, 1950's/60's track layout for Blackheath station in SE London, I came across this photo.

Pre 3rd rail, so guessing 1920's maybe.

Anyone have any photo's of similar oddly mounted signal's

As an aside, if anyone has photo's or track diagrams, what was in the large yard there?

Had heard that 12 coach summer specials were berthed there before returning to the coast to collect passengers.

 

https://boroughphotos.org/lewisham/blackheath-station-8/

It's a sort of 'Steam Punk' signal; lovely. It just needs a hanging basket.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Fat Controller

[Nearholmer]

Fascinating signal!

 

Looking at old maps, late C19th, there seem to have been storage or sorting yards on both up and down sides, the up side with a shed over them, and my surmise (wild guess!) would be that they were carriage sidings for storing suburban trains “off peak”, so as to avoid cluttering-up the London termini. But, that would involve a lot of ECS workings.

 

The track layouts don’t look ideal, but the other possible use of the down yard that occurred to me is a local goods marshalling point, to make and break trip workings. Hither Green marshalling yard didn’t exist until a bit later, so this little facility might have been its predecessor.

 

Kevin

[bécasse]

The sidings at Blackheath, like those at Maze Hill, were principally used for storing the "relief" carriage stock, used at summer weekends, for example, or for excursion or hop-pickers' friends trains. Most of the SED's infamous long sets were kept at these two locations.

[Nearholmer]

But, is that why they were put there in the first place, or something they came in useful for later?

[73c]

I do remember as a kid ( that's going back a bit! ) the circus train would bring Billy Smarts animals to Blackheath, there's a photo of camel's being lead up the high street kicking around on the internet.

[Trog]

So that's what a signal lamp is.

[Oldddudders]

Fascinating signal!

Looking at old maps, late C19th, there seem to have been storage or sorting yards on both up and down sides, the up side with a shed over them, and my surmise (wild guess!) would be that they were carriage sidings for storing suburban trains “off peak”, so as to avoid cluttering-up the London termini. But, that would involve a lot of ECS workings.

Nothing changes, Kevin. London termini do not lend themselves to holding many carriages between the peaks, although some, e.g Victoria, do better than others, e.g. Charing Cross. So Blackheath would actually be quite close in to London. In my time on the SE, there were carriage sidings at Addiscombe, Hayes, Grove Park, Orpington, Bickley, Beckenham Junction, Bellingham, Swanley, Dartford and more I’ve forgotten. All these received ECS after the morning peak, sent it out again before the evening peak. The most amazing moves were from Cannon Street, where to avoid busy Borough Market Junction, ECS would slip round the corner to Metropolitan Junction, up to Blackfriars Carriage Roads and then reverse via Elephant & Castle and Canterbury Road Junction to Stewarts Lane. In the evening these trains did the same in reverse!

[Compound2632]

Is the signal bracket actually attached to the lamp post, or is the main signal post just hidden behind it? Where are the balance weights?

 

Presumably it's a signal controlling setting back into the (carriage) sidings on the down side of the line, behind the photographer.

[Derekl]

I think the post is behind the lamp post. You can see the operating wire leaving the crank at teh top and then disappearing behind the lamp post - if the lamp post was the support it would not do that.

[Nearholmer]

It’s fixed to the lighting column, you can see the brackets/clamps.

[73c]

Is the signal bracket actually attached to the lamp post, or is the main signal post just hidden behind it? Where are the balance weights?

 

Presumably it's a signal controlling setting back into the (carriage) sidings on the down side of the line, behind the photographer.

I believe that it is attached, the arm seems to have a weight on the left hand end.

Yes , the yard was as you say, behind the photographer.

[43110andyb]

I would say attached as the shadow cast on the platform only shows one structure and as previously mentioned the brackets on the post.

[Nick Holliday]

It's interesting that this photo currently on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blackheath-Railway-Station-Photo-Lewisham-to-Kidbrooke-and-Charlton-Lines-3-/262667335870 shows a similar scene with the same lamppost but no sign of a signal. Not sure what it proves, but the lamppost doesn't have the additional brackets that appear in the first OP photo.

[73c]

The eBay photo looks to have been taken next to the lamp post in question and at a different time, there's a sign or advertisement board missing on the left.

[jonny777]

Possibly not quite the most unusual signal, but one that was not too common. 

 

Ely North Junction's distants.

 

 

[31A]

There was a detailed article on Blackheath station in "London Railway Record" No. 90 (January 2017); the following is a brief paraphrase.  The article includes several pictures of the station at different times in its history; sadly none show the signal in question.  It describes how the number of sidings in the down yard was increased over the years from 1870 from seven (it is thought) at that time to the stage when a 1916 signalling diagram shows 2 through sidings and 10 dead end roads.

 

The 1886 diagram for the (then) Blackheath signal box shows the signal as a disc at the very end of the platform, numbered 12 on the diagram.  The signalling diagram showing the alterations for the new Blackheath 'A' box dated 1916 shows the new signals numbered, and the signals controlled from the existing box (which then became Blackheath 'B') are shown but not numbered.  This diagram indicates the signal in question more in the form shown in the OP's photo, as a raised shunting signal on a bracket actually on the platform, but still shown as a disc - this may have been just as a convention to indicate a shunting signal, not necessarily that it actually was a disc?   The down sidings were extended in 1916 to cater for military traffic generated by the large local munitions production.  Although initially referred to as carriage sidings, they weren't electrified when the running lines were in 1926.

 

The article describes how the access to the down sidings was remodelled in connection with platform extensions in 1954, and a picture dating from 1957 shows a Southern 'Mogul' passing what appears to be the new signal controlling the access; if so, by then it was a standard SR disc in the 'six foot' between the up and down main lines.  Apparently all the down sidings were removed under the 1970 St. John's area resignalling scheme.

[RFS]

Apparently all the down sidings were removed under the 1970 St. John's area resignalling scheme.

 

Indeed they were, and the area is now a large pay-and-display car park. 

[RFS]

It's interesting that this photo currently on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blackheath-Railway-Station-Photo-Lewisham-to-Kidbrooke-and-Charlton-Lines-3-/262667335870 shows a similar scene with the same lamppost but no sign of a signal. Not sure what it proves, but the lamppost doesn't have the additional brackets that appear in the first OP photo.

 

No it's not quite the same scene: look at the first photo and there are two lamp-posts in view.  In this Ebay photo, the lamp-post with the signal is just behind the photographer. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by RFS

[bécasse]

 

The 1886 diagram for the (then) Blackheath signal box shows the signal as a disc at the very end of the platform, numbered 12 on the diagram.  The signalling diagram showing the alterations for the new Blackheath 'A' box dated 1916 shows the new signals numbered, and the signals controlled from the existing box (which then became Blackheath 'B') are shown but not numbered.  This diagram indicates the signal in question more in the form shown in the OP's photo, as a raised shunting signal on a bracket actually on the platform, but still shown as a disc - this may have been just as a convention to indicate a shunting signal, not necessarily that it actually was a disc? 

 

As far as I am aware the SER, and subsequently the SE&CR, always used miniature arms for shunt signals, quite a number of which remained in use until at least the late 1950s, so the use of discs on the diagram is just a convention. It wasn't unusual generally to depict shunt signals on diagrams in a way that bore no resemblance to the actual signals, the L&SWR, for example, used miniature arms on miniature posts on its diagrams but Stevens drop-down flaps in reality.

[RailWest]

It wasn't unusual generally to depict shunt signals on diagrams in a way that bore no resemblance to the actual signals, the L&SWR, for example, used miniature arms on miniature posts on its diagrams but Stevens drop-down flaps in reality.

Originally Stevens drop-flaps were depicted by what I would call a 'lollipop' symbol (basically a circle on a stick). When the L&SWR started to use mini-arm signals then the drawing convention changed. As a result the new symbol often appeared on old diagrams for alterations (quite a useful clue for research purposes), even where the alteration merely involved the relocation of an existing 'drop-flap' signal. Later still, when the SR started to use the 'half-disc' pattern the symbol changed again, albeit to a full disc for some reason, and again there were diagrams where actual mini-arm signals were shown by the full-disc signal. Conversely, some diagrams continued to show all the ground-signals as the mini-arm type long after in reality they had been replaced by the half-disc type.

[Wickham Green]

There was a detailed article on Blackheath station in "London Railway Record" No. 90 (January 2017); the following is a brief paraphrase.  The article includes several pictures of the station at different times in its history; sadly none show the signal in question.  It describes how the number of sidings in the down yard was increased over the years from 1870 from seven (it is thought) at that time to the stage when a 1916 signalling diagram shows 2 through sidings and 10 dead end roads.

 

The 1886 diagram for the (then) Blackheath signal box shows the signal as a disc at the very end of the platform, numbered 12 on the diagram.  The signalling diagram showing the alterations for the new Blackheath 'A' box dated 1916 shows the new signals numbered, and the signals controlled from the existing box (which then became Blackheath 'B') are shown but not numbered.  This diagram indicates the signal in question more in the form shown in the OP's photo, as a raised shunting signal on a bracket actually on the platform, but still shown as a disc - this may have been just as a convention to indicate a shunting signal, not necessarily that it actually was a disc?   The down sidings were extended in 1916 to cater for military traffic generated by the large local munitions production.  Although initially referred to as carriage sidings, they weren't electrified when the running lines were in 1926.

 

The article describes how the access to the down sidings was remodelled in connection with platform extensions in 1954, and a picture dating from 1957 shows a Southern 'Mogul' passing what appears to be the new signal controlling the access; if so, by then it was a standard SR disc in the 'six foot' between the up and down main lines.  Apparently all the down sidings were removed under the 1970 St. John's area resignalling scheme.

Anyone without access to the L.R.R. article will find a revised version in the Southern Notebook ( from Southern Railways Group ) later last year ......

[kevinlms]

I seem to recall reading about a signal, a splitting home signal IIRC. While a common style of signal, its claim to fame, was that it was at right angles to any track! Its purpose I believe was for training of railway staff and was positioned, in such a way that it couldn't be mistaken for a normal running signal. Perhaps it was at Swindon?

 

Am I imagining things?

[johnb]

I seem to recall reading about a signal, a splitting home signal IIRC. While a common style of signal, its claim to fame, was that it was at right angles to any track! Its purpose I believe was for training of railway staff and was positioned, in such a way that it couldn't be mistaken for a normal running signal. Perhaps it was at Swindon?

 

Am I imagining things?

No you are not imagining it.

 

I have read of and seen a picture of just such a situation where was a set of signals like that, incl homes and distants. IIRC they were on an embankment near a signalling school or loco works and were used as an eyesight test for prospective footplate staff and such staff. They were operated from the viewing location. A GWR location I think.

Stationmaster Mike would be the best authority for confirmation.

 

John

Edited March 6, 2018 by johnb

[The Stationmaster]

I seem to recall reading about a signal, a splitting home signal IIRC. While a common style of signal, its claim to fame, was that it was at right angles to any track! Its purpose I believe was for training of railway staff and was positioned, in such a way that it couldn't be mistaken for a normal running signal. Perhaps it was at Swindon?

 

Am I imagining things?

 

The Swindon ones - which were on the embankment of the M&SWJR line consisted of three separate signals - all being stops signals with lower arm distants on tubular steel posts.  They were operated by a small lever frame in a hut which had a telephone link to the Medical 'victim' to describe which signals were on and off while separately giving instructions to teh operator about which combinations of signals were to be lowered.

 

I don't know what preceded the tubular post signals but presume it was similar arrangement although maybe a different test was used previously?  The signals must have been something getting towards half a mile, or maybe even more, from the viewing point and they were also clearly visible from a passing train on the GW mainline if you knew where to look for them.