rogerfarnworth Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 Draguignan to Lorgues https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/08/ligne-de-central-var-part-11-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-31 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Absolutely fascinating. We need to talk. I am sure we may hav chatted at exhibitions as I have had some of my French themed layouts exhibited up here in north west. My parents used to have a house in Flayosc, which I presume willbe featured(the town, not my parent's house!) in one of the next issues of your blog. Edit, you must have been posting next issue when I was writing the above! They also used to have a small place in Nice,but I never had chance to visit them there and so have not been on the railway. I do remember Flayosc, and its typically hilly terrain. Ihave been doin research from the western end of the Med coast,initially around Carcasonne, but then I found out that the CF de Camargue was metre gauge, I did a lot of research on that. It even has an important religious connectipn, as one of the lines went down to St Maries de la Mer. I shouldn't have to say why. I am planning to build a model of a very small part of the main station at Arles. The buildings still exist. Like the lines around Nice, the CF de Camargue ultimately died because of WW2 destruction, namely of the standard gauge bridge across the Rhone at Arles. Edited February 19, 2018 by rue_d_etropal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Hi Simon. Yes, my interest is growing. I am soon to start a series on here on the line from Toulon to Saint-Raphael and I have blog posts in nascent form for much of the TAM network of tramways, which I hope to supplement in coming months. We go to Provence usually once a year in November and plan to be in Saint-Raphael this year. I have had a quick look at your blog and your website. My modelling interest is N Gauge and focusses on the city of Hereford. Roger Edited February 20, 2018 by rogerfarnworth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Lorgues to Sillans-la-Cascade https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/09/ligne-de-central-var-part-12-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-32 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 What type of rail and chairs did French metre gauge use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Roger, I look forward to new instalments. The area you are covering is sadly neglected by many. One reason is probably its closure in the early 50s. I had not realised how extensive the metre gauge lines were, and had not seen photos or references to the 0-6-0 tender locos . I have been trying to find colour photos of the CF de Camargues(loco/coach colour?), but have not found any yet. Like the area further east, it was not a popular destination for visitors. The south coast only really got popular after a couple of welknown films were made in the area. Before that St Tropez was just a quiet backwater. I spotted your Hereford layout on your blog. Ever been tempted to build something French? November is a good time to visit Provence. October can be better, especially as it is still within summer low cost airline schedules. The end of October is chestnut time(we have a local festival near to Beziers). It is still surprisingly warm, not as hot as August, and warmer than Easter. By December it is starting to get colder(even frosts and ice). Edited February 20, 2018 by rue_d_etropal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) What type of rail and chairs did French metre gauge use? Might be worth while checking out the French Metre gauge online forum. http://www.passion-metrique.net/forums/index.php?sid=530461bc89f8a9e5a7bd634e70eada7b Also Roger, they might be interestedin your blog. Edited February 20, 2018 by rue_d_etropal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Hi and thank you. Yes, already posting on Passions Metrique. Posting has to be done in French and I use Google Translate for this. It occasionally produces interesting results especially after retranslation into English! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 If you go on that site, I have been testing out blog posts for the Coastal line between Toulon and Saint-Raphael to hopefully have facts corrected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Penrith I think that both chaired and vignoles/FB, the latter with various types of spikes and screws, were used in different places at different times. Even hazier recollection is that the Vivatais was one that used chaired track, but best refer to photos. Now I’ve googled a good reference for you, stats in here say that 19500km of metrique was FB, the other 1000km chaired. http://journals.openedition.org/rhcf/2041#tocfrom2n7 Kevin Edited February 20, 2018 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted February 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) What type of rail and chairs did French metre gauge use? With probably nearly 20,000km* of track at its peak and almost all of it being built under local direction, the answer is just about anything and everything. (* the quoted number is 22,000km secondary network track but some systems were 60cm gauge and a few were standard). Many were lightly laid spiked vignole (FB) track. Some were much more heavily laid with chairs. CF de La Mure used metal sleepers for at least part of the line - possibly because the original early line was 2 phase electrical supply* and used the track as the return. The original was steam hauled but rapidly converted to electrical supply - somewhat strange for a line built primarily to carry coal. I will seek out a few references and see if I can give some more meat to the answer. * Edit: see commentary in my subsequent post about what I meant by 2 phase. Edited February 20, 2018 by Andy Hayter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 From the reference I gave: 19 000 km sont armés de rails Vignole légers (15 à 25 kg le mètre linéaire), soit 95 %, 1 000 km avec rails double champignon sur coussinets d’un poids de 23 à 30 kg (Corse, Val-de-Loire, Bretagne). En chaussée, des rails à profils spéciaux incluent l’ornière (Broca). Ils se répartissent presque également entre lignes en site propre : 10 500 km et lignes sur chaussée ou accotement : 10 000 km. Doesn’t mention the Vivarais as chaired, so I must have misremembered that. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted February 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2018 I have now gone through a number of reference books and the pictures (not surprisingly) agree with the above. I was not expecting to find very much Double Champignon (bull head) but in fact I only found one shot - and even that not totally clear, but given that it was Reseau Breton and your quote above, I feel more certain. Many systems seem to have used more than one track system with parts chaired and other parts spiked/screwed and in some case tramway style track for street working through villages and towns. There seem to be two systems for spiking/screwing. One seems to involve spiking (actually more probably screwing) directly into the sleeper and using the lip on the screw to hold the vignoles (FB) rail to the sleeper. In many cases however there seems to be metal clip (rather than a chair proper) that is screwed down and holds the rail in place - again with the lip of the screw overlapping the flat of the rail. I was expecting to find the dual track sections of the Vivarais at least chaired - but this bit of track seems to use this clip system - and for the SNCF rails as well! From the pictures I have looked at spiking/screwing is by far the most used system - quick cheap and easy, if perhaps not as durable as other systems. Pictures of the DF de La Mure confirm the chaired metal sleepers at La Mure, but (most of) the rest of the system seems to be spiked. Also earlier pictures are less obvious about whether these metal sleepers were in place, so perhaps my guess on the reason is completely wrong. I should explain what I meant by two phase above, since I am sure the term is completely wrong for an electrician or someone so minded. The original system fed +1200V DC down one wire and -1200V down the other - given it's DC I guess there re no phases. Sources consulted: Les Chemins de Fer du Vivarais - Arrivetz Le Chemin de Fer de La Mure - Wormser La France a voie etroite - Dahlstrom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Sillans-la-Cascade to Barjols https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/09/ligne-de-central-var-part-13-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-33 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Andy The term is ‘split potential’. The French were very keen on it for a period, with some of the Metro electrified that way. A variant of it is used on London Underground, and the former City and South London had a super-strange variant. The variants are around the way the motors on the train are connected, pole -to-pole or pole-to-centre, among other things. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) In November each year, my wife Jo and I visit Provence. We have been doing so regularly since 2001. We have travelled on the Nice to Digne line on a number of occasions and increasingly also become aware of the remnants of a number of different tramways. The three blog posts below were written at about the time when we were beginning to become aware of the extent of the network of these lines. https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2013/12/10/chemins-de-fer-de-province https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/chemins-de-fer-de-provence-2 https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/chemins-de-fer-de-provence Edited February 20, 2018 by rogerfarnworth 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 The length of the Central Var line from Barjols to Rians: https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/10/ligne-de-central-var-part-14-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-34 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) This is the final length of the Central Var metre-gauge railway line in Provence https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/11/ligne-de-central-var-part-15-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-35 In due course, I will publish a blog post on the locomotives and rolling stock on the line. Edited February 23, 2018 by rogerfarnworth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 This next post is the first in a series based on the Coastal Line between Toulon and Saint-Raphael which was known as Le Macaron. https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/18/ligne-du-littoral-toulon-to-st-raphael-part-1-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-36 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 The second post in a series about the line from Toulon to Saint-Raphael: https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/20/ligne-du-littoral-toulon-to-st-raphael-part-2-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-37 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) The third post in the series about the metre-gauge line from Toulon to Saint-Raphael focusses on one of the main competitors to the line over the length from Toulon to Hyeres - the tramway lines of the city of Toulon: https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/23/ligne-du-littoral-toulon-to-st-raphael-part-3-trams-in-toulon-and-hyeres-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-38 Edited February 22, 2018 by rogerfarnworth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I have now gone through a number of reference books and the pictures (not surprisingly) agree with the above. I was not expecting to find very much Double Champignon (bull head) but in fact I only found one shot - and even that not totally clear, but given that it was Reseau Breton and your quote above, I feel more certain. Many systems seem to have used more than one track system with parts chaired and other parts spiked/screwed and in some case tramway style track for street working through villages and towns. There seem to be two systems for spiking/screwing. One seems to involve spiking (actually more probably screwing) directly into the sleeper and using the lip on the screw to hold the vignoles (FB) rail to the sleeper. In many cases however there seems to be metal clip (rather than a chair proper) that is screwed down and holds the rail in place - again with the lip of the screw overlapping the flat of the rail. I was expecting to find the dual track sections of the Vivarais at least chaired - but this bit of track seems to use this clip system - and for the SNCF rails as well! From the pictures I have looked at spiking/screwing is by far the most used system - quick cheap and easy, if perhaps not as durable as other systems. Pictures of the DF de La Mure confirm the chaired metal sleepers at La Mure, but (most of) the rest of the system seems to be spiked. Also earlier pictures are less obvious about whether these metal sleepers were in place, so perhaps my guess on the reason is completely wrong. I should explain what I meant by two phase above, since I am sure the term is completely wrong for an electrician or someone so minded. The original system fed +1200V DC down one wire and -1200V down the other - given it's DC I guess there re no phases. Sources consulted: Les Chemins de Fer du Vivarais - Arrivetz Le Chemin de Fer de La Mure - Wormser La France a voie etroite - Dahlstrom Thank you for that. The reason I asked the question was that I saw in a book on WDLR in France that there were instances of metre gauge railways being converted to 600mm simply by moving one rail towards the other. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 Hi Roger, I shall look forward to looking at your links when I have a bit more time. Just back from a couple of weeks working in France and catching up with stuff here - our first tours of 2018. I have always been interested in Meyrargues particularly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Hi Joseph I do hope you enjoy the posts. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerfarnworth Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 This is the next post in a series about the Chemins de Fer du Sud de la France's Coastal line between Toulon and Saint-Raphael. This post focusses on the PLM line which both competed for passenger traffic with Le Macaron between Toulon and Hyeres but also provided an essential link into the national network through the exchange sidings at Hyeres. https://rogerfarnworth.wordpress.com/2017/12/24/ligne-du-littoral-toulon-to-st-raphael-part-4-toulon-to-les-salins-dhyeres-chemin-de-fer-de-provence-39 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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