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Time to bring back design clever?


nathan70000
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I've noticed quite a lot of interest in Hornby's calamitous financial situation recently, which doesn't seem to be improving, despite the quality of models from Hornby getting better and better. How come, then, the financial situation isn't improving?

 

Well, Hornby's current model would appear to be somewhat unsustainable. In a time when most people are rationing their non-essential purchases, Hornby prices are rocketing towards the £200 mark. That might not be a problem for companies like Rapido which cater to a very small section of the market and have low overheads, but it certainly is for Hornby, a vast multinational corporation with very high brand awareness, in this country at least.

 

What's interesting is that share prices had plummeted whilst prices are going up, suggesting that Hornby is moving to a model of producing more expensive to develop products to sell to a smaller group of (well off!) people, particularly collectors. This is unsustainable, frankly as the vast majority of collectors and modellers are in the over 60s age bracket.

 

The point is then, Hornby needs to sell to a larger group of people than just the elderly and/or well off (No offense!). A quick look on Facebook reveals that one of the biggest modelling-related groups on there is named 'Railway modellers on a limited income' or thereabouts. Now, Hornby has 'Railroad' but it seems to be a dumping ground for old models from the 80s like the D49 and the 14xx. Imagine if there was a way to tool up a model so it could fit in both the Railroad and 'super detail' ranges..oh wait. There is, design clever!

 

It seems to have somewhat of a bad reputation on these forums, but it's definitely time to reconsider. In fact it should never have been dumped in the first place. I personally have saved a lot of money by simply buying the Railroad version of a model and adding detail as I see fit.

 

Personally I can't see why people complain about the full fat versions not being up to spec, but then again I can easily forgive the odd molded handrail or detail part (especially as it makes them more durable- some of my super detail engines shed bits on the move!). Hornby have missed a serious trick by not doing the Class 800 to design clever standard as I suspect many a younger modeller will want one (I fit in that category but I don't do post-1985!). One of Hornby's biggest sellers, overall, is 'Tornado' which is an excellent example of Design Clever done well- the super detail ones are gorgeous and the Railroad one certainly has it's place in the budget market.

 

So, my first suggestion to Hornby would be a design-clever 800 priced at around the 150 mark. They can definitely do a decent job at that price, the Pendolino looks fantastic and is quite competitively priced (I have one- and I don't do modern image!). The full fat one should probably be reduced too as I reckon they'll sell tons in the long term (think HST) so even if they put them up at say £290-320 and they make a loss initially they'll eventually recoup the costs.

 

Additionally they should probably take more risks on items that are 'glamourous'. The P2 was and is a good seller in both forms. Further big ticket items could be done like the P2 with Railroad and super detail versions. Ideal candidates would include the original format W1, the streamline Duchesses, 'The Great Bear' and a retooled Battle of Britain/WC. I would have suggested a King over 111 but the existing model seems to be quite reasonable anyway in price and appearance.

 

Finally I think Hornby needs to rethink prices overall, simply to avoid all their models going to collectors who will never take them out the box. I would suggest a £160 limit for super detail 'big' steam locos and £100/110 for freight locos. £80 for tank engines. Big diesels and leccys £120. Obviously some compromises will have to be made, but an excellent, super-detail model at a good price is definitely possible, as the King and the A3/A4/P2 prove.

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Having recently bought a Railroad 'Hall' (from the 'design clever era') for £75 (Hattons, it seems, have it for £57!) in BR Green, all I can say is that I agree with you. The only niggle I have with the loco is the lack of a black line within the lining on the cab and tender, especially when Hornby have applied it on the boiler bands.

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I love my R3169 Olton Hall, which was the railroad version. I added the missing lining, fitted brake rods, added the fallplate, painted the cab detail, replaced the BR emblem, fitted etched nameplates, number plates, and headboard, and gloss coated the loco. Hogwarts Castle is now my flagship loco, and she will remain so, because it is not just an off the shelf model, but a model that cost me about £65, and then had my own work out into her as well. I love my other locos too of course, but she is just that little bit more special. Design clever definitely has its place I think.

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It didn't work when they did it before, and it wasn't that long ago.

 

What makes you think it will work now?

 

IMHO it's the Railroad prices that are out of line; too high in relation to both the main range and the requirements of those with (more) restricted budgets. The "full fat" main range models, expensive though they are, look better value-for-money to me.

 

John   

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I like my, what are regarded in the Hornby range as "super detailed", Class 60s and Class 08s, and if they were to revert the spec to the "design clever" level of detailing etc then I simply wouldn't buy them.

Edited by YesTor
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Finally I think Hornby needs to rethink prices overall, simply to avoid all their models going to collectors who will never take them out the box. I would suggest a £160 limit for super detail 'big' steam locos and £100/110 for freight locos. £80 for tank engines. Big diesels and leccys £120. Obviously some compromises will have to be made, but an excellent, super-detail model at a good price is definitely possible, as the King and the A3/A4/P2 prove.

 

If Hornby ceased to cater for the collector market, they'd be done-for in weeks. 

 

I'm certainly not one myself, but recognise that, if the affluent, hard-core, R-number fiends hadn't kept buying through the hard times, Hornby would have disappeared already. 

 

If it ever came to Hornby having to choose between catering for them and catering for you (or rather how you come across in the OP), I wouldn't bet on the latter. 

 

If I have the cash I buy more, if I don't, I buy less. Even when things fall within my budget, if I don't think an item is value for money and it's not something I want badly enough to stump up the asking price, I do without or (more likely) only buy one when I would otherwise have had two or three.

 

Hobbies of all kinds are luxuries, to be enjoyed using cash left over (if I have any) after my essentials have been paid for.

 

How deeply one can indulge is in proportion to ones surplus income but nobody ever made a living out of ignoring those willing and able to spend in favour of those who can't or won't.

 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I can understand the sentiment here. BUT my own perspective is I would rather one top quality loco for £200 that I will keep for 20-30y than two design clever models for £125. If I am spending money, I want to spend well, not just spend for the thrill of adding one or two more locos. But each to their own I suppose.

 

I will not buy design clever/simplified models. If this happens I will simply go exclusively Bachmann. I am tbh very annoyed that my chance of getting a decent accurate RTR Std 8p is now Zero because of Design clever and Hornby's slap dash job on the loco (smokebox too long, no bearings, single piece side rods etc etc). I am also slightly disappointed with the King; there are a few shortcuts there (including the ATP conduit out of the cab) that are moulded when on the Castles they were separate. Contrast this with Bachmann's attitude of 'how are we going to top the BP or Ransomes Crane...' Hornby should have said for the king 'how can we top the castle', rather than ‘how can we backtrack on the Star’. I digress.

 

The trick would be for Hornby to cater for budget conscious and discerning modellers.

 

The more I think about it the more I think possible answer are

 

a) dual models - a set of tools that allow the same basic (accurate) body tool to cater for high spec, full fat castle/Britannia/duchess level of detail, along with a lower spec basic shell for cheaper models. Either two sets of tools, or a suite of slides. I think the Railroad A4 is a good illustration of how this can be done; the same basic body design is used for both full fat and railroad models. The 'good paint job on railroad body' solution is ridiculous, because to improve the detail, you need to do a full repaint anyway! NO NO NO

 

b): do a Vi-trains and have one set of high spec tools, and leave the detail parts for the end customer to fit for a cheaper release. Athearn did/do this on their US outline models and I have a couple of nicely detailed GM locos with detail pack added

.

Please Hornby, continue to produce top spec, no compromise models, but maybe consider producing batches with either detail supplied for modeller to fit, or left off (and simplified paint job) for those more budget conscious modellers.

 

Rather than design clever, Hornby need to think ‘design intelligent’ for a range of models that can build off one set of basic CAD and core tools, but with two distinct products at the end.

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I totally agree, to some extent Hornby, and certain other manufacturers seem to be forgetting where there roots are, they seem to be more interested in the "collector" market than the good old "modeller" market. Another issue is with the 3 figure prices of modern models it puts prospective new modellers off, design clever would possibly give those new modellers a starting point.

 

When I started modelling if you wanted super detail you went out and bought detail kits and parts and created your own model, whereas now you just buy a model and stick it on your track or in a cabinet, no personality

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Define what you mean by design clever.

If you mean leave out the fine detail which brakes then you could do it but the guys and gals who are designing the models in the first place can only design to a specification from the production lines. This is where there is a problem.

People in China want better pay. We have to pay in US$ ( the exchange rate has a big influence on final price) And quality of the end product doesn't seem to worry the manufacturer's (even for full size railway items).

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I totally agree, to some extent Hornby, and certain other manufacturers seem to be forgetting where there roots are, they seem to be more interested in the "collector" market than the good old "modeller" market. Another issue is with the 3 figure prices of modern models it puts prospective new modellers off, design clever would possibly give those new modellers a starting point.

 

When I started modelling if you wanted super detail you went out and bought detail kits and parts and created your own model, whereas now you just buy a model and stick it on your track or in a cabinet, no personality

I would suggest that most of the youthful demographic that would formerly have provided Hornby's "roots" nowadays spends its cash on other things instead. Making locos that cost £100 rather than £200 isn't going to alter the priorities of people who cheerfully spend way more than that "upgrading" their phone every year.

 

Hornby, Bachmann and all the rest are just moving to cater for a market that they know does exist, i.e. the people that formed those roots in their own youth but have got older and richer with more time on their hands. 

 

Should I stay awake nights worrying that Hornby, or even railway modelling itself, might not exist in thirty years time? Not ruddy likely, I'm too old and it's S.E.P 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Some interesting replies to this topic- knew it would be controversial! I would never advocate Hornby stop doing super detail models, the ones I have are my favourites even above Bachmann locos. But I do think that a compromise should be reached between price and detail. A £500 loco would obviously be better than a £100 one, but I couldn't possibly afford it so unless there were alternatives available I wouldn't be able to have one. There are good and bad examples of design clever- personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the King and that's a better example of the concept (although there isn't a railroad version). The ex-Dapol County is another one- more RR models at this standard please! I have a 71000 and whilst it is rather tasty there is definitely something off about the front end. The smokebox being flush with the slanted running plate is what gives it it's character. And yes the Railroad range RRPs are too high but they can be found at decent prices.

 

I don't believe the collector's market makes up 80% of Hornby's market; that's a ridiculous figure. Has Hornby ever clarified this one? I suspect it's closer to 20% or less. I've spent a lot of time in model shops, and I'd say the buyers can be broken down like this:

 

40% modeller

30% 'trainset'-type casual buyer

20% kids

10% collector

 

At model shops associsted near heritage railways, the balance tips even further in favour of kids and trainset types whereas at exhibitions it is about 70% modeller to 30% kids and trainset. Very unscientific and based purely on observation but I'd like to see some evidence for the 80% collectors figure. Is that common to all manufacturers? If it is the case why don't they just make models without motors and in fancy glass cases with certificates for that segment of the market? Oh and one other thing- there are plenty of not-so-well off pensioners as well who also might not be able to spend £££ on models. On the Facebook group I mentioned in the OP there are plenty of over 60s.

Edited by nathan70000
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Answers simple . 2 clearly defined ranges.

 

Premier Range like the William H Stanier now retailing @ £204 . No thanks i’ll Stick with my 10 year old version, but clearly it has been popular so there is a market there.

 

An “essentials “ range employing Design Clever . I’ve always thought modern railway scene HST, 156, 66, 67 Pendo + the big namers Tornado, Flying Scotsman. Mallard.

 

No cross overs between ranges although there may be same model in both but two entirely separate models if need be. You are right models like the Hall are absolutely fine .

 

Which range will win out over time? Well they’ll be positioned to react to either. The trouble is Hornby can’t decide what they are. Hopelessly muddled marketing which results in the Hall being in Main Range and Railroad and things like the Crosti . So be two things but clearly defined .

 

But one thing they have to still learn is QC is not optional in either range .

Edited by Legend
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I do think steam appeals more than D&E for younger modellers; especially if brought up on a diet of Thomas! They'll probably want an 800 as well (fast, pointy and looks cool) but I suspect your average 10 year old modeller would get much, much more excited by an A4, a 'King' or even a pre-grouping loco than a 158 or a 66.

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They would be better off making their railroad range more reasonable in price.  There is room to appeal to both ends of the market with European quality models and more sturdy, less detailed models much like Oxford Rail are doing right now.

Edited by GWR8700
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Some interesting replies to this topic- knew it would be controversial! I would never advocate Hornby stop doing super detail models, the ones I have are my favourites even above Bachmann locos. But I do think that a compromise should be reached between price and detail. A £500 loco would obviously be better than a £100 one, but I couldn't possibly afford it so unless there were alternatives available I wouldn't be able to have one. There are good and bad examples of design clever- personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the King and that's a better example of the concept (although there isn't a railroad version). The ex-Dapol County is another one- more RR models at this standard please! I have a 71000 and whilst it is rather tasty there is definitely something off about the front end. The smokebox being flush with the slanted running plate is what gives it it's character. And yes the Railroad range RRPs are too high but they can be found at decent prices.

 

I don't believe the collector's market makes up 80% of Hornby's market; that's a ridiculous figure. Has Hornby ever clarified this one? I suspect it's closer to 20% or less. I've spent a lot of time in model shops, and I'd say the buyers can be broken down like this:

 

40% modeller

30% 'trainset'-type casual buyer

20% kids

10% collector

 

At model shops associsted near heritage railways, the balance tips even further in favour of kids and trainset types whereas at exhibitions it is about 70% modeller to 30% kids and trainset. Very unscientific and based purely on observation but I'd like to see some evidence for the 80% collectors figure. Is that common to all manufacturers? If it is the case why don't they just make models without motors and in fancy glass cases with certificates for that segment of the market? Oh and one other thing- there are plenty of not-so-well off pensioners as well who also might not be able to spend £££ on models. On the Facebook group I mentioned in the OP there are plenty of over 60s.

My local dealer reckons kids is less than 10% by value these days. [Edit: but I suspect that much more of that is sold other than through model shops] Pure collectors about 30% (less of them but they spend a lot more per capita). Pure modellers who buy r-t-r have greatly increased as r-t-r has improved. They and those of us who straddle the divide, accounting for the remaining 60%. That said, I think he is a bit over-generous in defining some customers I've seen in the shop, who definitely look/sound rather more "Trainset" to me.

 

I think he defines anybody who buys scenic materials as a modeller, which I think may be pushing things a bit without seeing the results. :jester: The line between train-sets and model railways is often blurred and wiggly. I've seen some big, elaborate well-executed layouts that are quite clearly train sets in my book. 

 

Motors are cheap and dividing production to make separate powered and non-powered models would probably cost more.

 

In any event, my experience suggests that if you leave modern locos unused for a long time, the motors don't last long when you do start using them.

 

Particularly if kept in display cabinets, the lubricant will congeal and mechanisms will need to be cleaned and re-lubricated to give reliable service.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Can I pick who will do the Air-Smoothing? :girldevil:

 

With someone of your year's of experience, I'm sure the Grand Inquisitor will give only you their best Air-Smoother...

 

... and your screams (of pleasure) would only be picked up by Voyager 1 & 2 (and they are both in interstellar space)  :jester:  :jester:

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If design clever had been called design for manufacture and had been introduced across the board to a consistent standard it might have worked.

Sadly they made a mess of it.

They now have a problem.

If they are to be the brand leader then they have to produce better models than the competition and that puts the RRP well north of £200 for a large locomotive.

The older railroad models are not cost effective to be given a design clever make over.The better modern models are good but need better checking which will add to the cost.

Basically Hornby have a problem in making a decision as to their direction of travel.

I don't have a clue as to what they should do but I await any news with interest.

I do feel that there is a market for better freight wagons to a basic but accurate level. Like Oxford but without the errors rather than the recent Hornby offerings.

Bernard

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