Modern Image split

[Dagworth]

Who are you that is so wise in the ways of science?

 

Phil

 

 

And getting back to modelling...

 

 

 

Andi

[ruggedpeak]

And getting back to modelling...

 

 

 

Andi

Seriously, if we're doing the "its only a model" gag then lets have models doing it

 

 

That's more like it.

 

And now back to the trains, D&E trains in fact....

 

Edited March 6, 2018 by ruggedpeak

[steve1]

I don't model passenger workings because I find them boring, whether units or loco-hauled.

 

Give me grubby wagons (or freight cars!) and I'm happy.

 

steve

 

PS I echo the comments about DEMU if you model D&E.

[Les1952]

Seriously, if we're doing the "its only a model" gag then lets have models doing it

 

 

That's more like it.

 

And now back to the trains, D&E trains in fact....

 

 

Now a decent D&E LEGO layout if not too big I'd book in a flash as the youngest of our show punters would love it....

 

Les

[jjb1970]

When I read magazines or occasionally visit exhibitions I tend to be not that interested in layouts aligned with my own interests. That probably sounds daft but if I want to look at the stuff I model and collect then I don't need to look at somebody else's layout or magazine articles. Invariably the layouts and articles that interest me are of subjects I know little about or which I don't model myself. To me the whole point is to see something different and who knows, maybe even be inspired to do something new.

[truffy]

When I read magazines or occasionally visit exhibitions I tend to be not that interested in layouts aligned with my own interests. That probably sounds daft but if I want to look at the stuff I model and collect then I don't need to look at somebody else's layout or magazine articles. Invariably the layouts and articles that interest me are of subjects I know little about or which I don't model myself. To me the whole point is to see something different and who knows, maybe even be inspired to do something new.

I do like to see things that align with my interests, but can also learn or be inspired by looking at other work. The motive aspect may change, but there are still things to learn from building, weathering, and back scene design.

[andytrains]

Good modelling in whatever scale, era etc.

With movement.

That's what I want to see.

[Northmoor]

Actually Clive I agree with a great deal of Ravenser's "rant".  You are just one of the exceptions that prove the rule and I'm glad to hear the Glasgow show was so good.  I went to it in '95 and it sticks in my mind as a big disappointment, there were so many collections of diesels parked in diesel depots (it was the height of Lima's Limited Edition phase).

 

I would completely endorse the observation of too much freight, no MU depots and even less, carriage sidings.  I struggle to recall these modelled in any era.  Not that it counts for anything but the plan for half of my loft layout - baseboards built but "St. Davids" needs to be built first - is to be some suburban carriage sidings.  It'll be a lot easier than packing away forty carriages at the end of every running session....

Perhaps it was a dull week but I've found myself thinking about this subject a lot.  The more I think about it, the more I've remembered the EXCELLENT D&E layouts: Chee Tor (the best layout I ever saw, but with steam as well), Wibdenshaw, Walford Town, Mostyn, Maidstone Barracks, Lochside, Loftus Road....

 

There's still too many depots though and I share the dislike of sound.  I have never known a layout that was made worse by NOT having sound.  The problem is the only sound is that of locomotives.  When I've viewed a real depot it's from a nearby bridge or path so there are lots of other sounds - passing traffic and pedestrians etc.  Sound just reinforces the fact that for (some) depot builders, locomotives are clearly the be-all-and-end-all.  That's fine if it's what you want but my interest in railways extends to so much more than that.

 

Ravenser's comment about the excess of freight rings very true, but I think this specifically applies to modelling of the up-to-date scene and not D&E in general.  Before privatisation the real railway had a much greater mix of traffic; since 1995 freight trains have got longer and heavier, passenger trains have often got shorter but more frequent.  However, we are all guilty to some degree of making our railways too "busy".  There would have been no Beeching report if the traffic levels of real branch lines had justified the services we run on our model branch lines!  We'd be bored out of our brains running a realistic timetable, "That's it, midday train's gone, perhaps I'll come back in four hours".

[Dagworth]

Perhaps it was a dull week but I've found myself thinking about this subject a lot.  The more I think about it, the more I've remembered the EXCELLENT D&E layouts: Chee Tor (the best layout I ever saw, but with steam as well), Wibdenshaw, Walford Town, Mostyn, Maidstone Barracks, Lochside, Loftus Road....

 

There's still too many depots though and I share the dislike of sound.  I have never known a layout that was made worse by NOT having sound.  The problem is the only sound is that of locomotives.  When I've viewed a real depot it's from a nearby bridge or path so there are lots of other sounds - passing traffic and pedestrians etc.  Sound just reinforces the fact that for (some) depot builders, locomotives are clearly the be-all-and-end-all.  That's fine if it's what you want but my interest in railways extends to so much more than that.

 

Ravenser's comment about the excess of freight rings very true, but I think this specifically applies to modelling of the up-to-date scene and not D&E in general.  Before privatisation the real railway had a much greater mix of traffic; since 1995 freight trains have got longer and heavier, passenger trains have often got shorter but more frequent.  However, we are all guilty to some degree of making our railways too "busy".  There would have been no Beeching report if the traffic levels of real branch lines had justified the services we run on our model branch lines!  We'd be bored out of our brains running a realistic timetable, "That's it, midday train's gone, perhaps I'll come back in four hours".

Personally I think the best DCC sound I have ever heard was on Loftus Road, that Desiro unit, the sound was so subtle that as it pulled away from the platform I thought to myself that I ought to be able to hear the traction motors singing, then realised that I could hear them but the volume was exactly right, not overpowering like so many but just there!

 

Andi

[Colin]

Now a decent D&E LEGO layout if not too big I'd book in a flash as the youngest of our show punters would love it....

 

Les

All those Lego train crashes give me an idea - how about a Lego Addams Family movie?

[ruggedpeak]

I note that this month's (April) Hornby mag the editorial specifically mentions that this issue has some D&E layouts to avoid an overemphasis on steam.

 

One of the layouts is 'Whiteacres' - the first time I saw it at a show they must have been having a few issues as nothing ran for a good 5 minutes, but I was stood at the front right where the small TMD is. The entire time a very loud DCC sound 66 was sat there idling which was really, really annoying! Otherwise a brilliant and inspirational layout. But it demonstrated how Sound can be annoying if not managed as carefully as scenery, running and all the other components of putting on a good show.

[Chamby]

I have yet to see a D&E layout that made me stop and go 'Wow!'  Except maybe The World's End, and lets be honest, it is the architectural modelling that makes that layout stand out... not the diesels.  And I cannot recall any diesel or electric layout that fits into the 'magnum opus' category of super-layouts.   It seems that the leading figureheads within our fraternity have failed to embrace post 1968, seemingly without exception.   There must surely be a sound reason for this.

 

It does intrigue me though, that the Scottish scene seems to have become more 'modern image' oriented.  Maybe this is because there is more diesel stuff available RTR for Scottish modellers compared to steam era models?  It will be interesting to see if this year's announcements by Hornby and Rails will have an impact on future focus, north of the border.

 

I agree with the earlier comments that the smaller scales are better suited to modern railway modelling, with the emphasis on seeing block units gliding through the scenery, stopping occasionally.  So it should be no surprise that D&E features more in N-gauge.  

 

However I suspect that the biggest hurdle for most people is what they see these days.  Most folks now have to travel some distance to see anything on the railways of more than passing interest...   Take my local station at St Austell, for example, in the 1930's it had a large goods depot and a number of busy sidings... the station employed over 40 people at that time.  When Motorail died out with the blue diesels, its status as a destination was lost.  Now it is merely a through station, the trains pausing here briefly on their way somewhere else.  It is a pathetic vestige of what it once was.  Even the mighty clay industry has collapsed to be a withered remnant of its former might.  The most interesting rail activity locally is found - wait for it - on the Bodmin and Wenford steam railway!  No wonder people go back to the days when there was more interesting stuff going on, when looking for modelling inspiration.

 

That said, I do have a number of diesels that run on my fledgling layout under rule 1, simply because I like them, though admittedly all are first generation.   The Sheds, Skips and Lawnmowers are all on the allotment!     

 

Phil

[HillsideDepot]

One of the problems which people seem to be struggling with is the breadth of post-steam era. I deliberately put it like that to avoid "Modern Image" and "D&E" and both terms seem to be troublesome labels. 

 

It is now 50 years since the end of steam on BR, longer than that in many areas. To say that there is no interest in the post-steam world as there are no station goods yards in the twenty-first century is rather missing the point. The early post steam years were, in many places, not too dissimilar from what had gone before. Yes, there was rationalisation, and yes Beeching had made his cuts, but unfitted goods still clanked their way between numerous small yards. Sure, such things were declining, and had gone within about 10 years, but to look at today's freight and ascribe that to everything post-steam is simply wrong.

The railway of today is very different to the railway of the final nationalised years, which in turn is very different to the railway of the early 1980s, and different again from that of the early 1970s. Yet everything "post-steam" is dismissed by some. Fine, that's their prerogative, but there is no need to suggest that those of us who choose to model the post-steam era are inferior. But there does seem to be a "steam good; everything else inferior" slant to many of the posts in this thread. If that's how those contributors feel, they are quite entitled to that opinion. When I visit an exhibition, or look at a layout on here or in a magazine, I can just as easily find things which jar on steam layouts as I do on anything of a more recent era. And before any one jumps on me, I too walk straight on by when I see a diesel depot layout with every livery under the sun represented, especially if said engines are emitting noises.

 

But, there are ways to include several operators at a modern stabling sidings (depots are pretty much gone now), if only people look and research. I have a plan for one such layout filed away for possible use at some future date. I doubt it'd be what most people would recognise as a "diesel depot" even if, in essence, that's what it is. Likewise I have a few DMU depot ideas bubbling away, although nothing has quite gelled yet. Are they any more, or less, boring than a steam depot?  

 

At the end of the day what we do is supposed to be fun. And its a very broad hobby. So some aspects will appeal less than others, be it scale region, era, whatever. I enjoy my BR Blue era layouts, they are to mediocre standard, but its a standard I can achieve. I could, no doubt, model the steam era to the same standard, but whether it would then be dismissed as a "poor layout" rather than for simply being a "diesel/D&E/modern image" layout is perhaps a moot point. 

[steve1]

 

I have yet to see a D&E layout that made me stop and go 'Wow!'  Except maybe The World's End, and lets be honest, it is the architectural modelling that makes that layout stand out... not the diesels.  And I cannot recall any diesel or electric layout that fits into the 'magnum opus' category of super-layouts.   It seems that the leading figureheads within our fraternity have failed to embrace post 1968, seemingly without exception.   There must surely be a sound reason for this.

 

Calcutta Sidings 2, Mostyn, Blackmills, Keir Hardy's Wibdenshaw, Canada Street, Jim Smith-Wright's BIrmingham New Street, ever heard of these?

 

Or by "leading figures" are you referring to the coterie of MRJ contributors whose names are only to be uttered in hushed tones?

 

By the way I don't like MPDs or noisy locos either.

 

steve

[Clive Mortimore]

messed up post

Edited March 10, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

I have yet to see a D&E layout that made me stop and go 'Wow!'  Except maybe The World's End, and lets be honest, it is the architectural modelling that makes that layout stand out... not the diesels.  And I cannot recall any diesel or electric layout that fits into the 'magnum opus' category of super-layouts.   It seems that the leading figureheads within our fraternity have failed to embrace post 1968, seemingly without exception.   There must surely be a sound reason for this.

 

It does intrigue me though, that the Scottish scene seems to have become more 'modern image' oriented.  Maybe this is because there is more diesel stuff available RTR for Scottish modellers compared to steam era models?  It will be interesting to see if this year's announcements by Hornby and Rails will have an impact on future focus, north of the border.

 

I agree with the earlier comments that the smaller scales are better suited to modern railway modelling, with the emphasis on seeing block units gliding through the scenery, stopping occasionally.  So it should be no surprise that D&E features more in N-gauge.  

 

However I suspect that the biggest hurdle for most people is what they see these days.  Most folks now have to travel some distance to see anything on the railways of more than passing interest...   Take my local station at St Austell, for example, in the 1930's it had a large goods depot and a number of busy sidings... the station employed over 40 people at that time.  When Motorail died out with the blue diesels, its status as a destination was lost.  Now it is merely a through station, the trains pausing here briefly on their way somewhere else.  It is a pathetic vestige of what it once was.  Even the mighty clay industry has collapsed to be a withered remnant of its former might.  The most interesting rail activity locally is found - wait for it - on the Bodmin and Wenford steam railway!  No wonder people go back to the days when there was more interesting stuff going on, when looking for modelling inspiration.

 

That said, I do have a number of diesels that run on my fledgling layout under rule 1, simply because I like them, though admittedly all are first generation.   The Sheds, Skips and Lawnmowers are all on the allotment!     

 

Phil

 

 

Hi Phil

 

Worlds End is possibly the most boring layout I have seen in the last 12 months.

[grahame]

I have yet to see a D&E layout that made me stop and go 'Wow!'  Except maybe The World's End, and lets be honest, it is the architectural modelling that makes that layout stand out... not the diesels.   

 

 

That's a shame because I've seen plenty. Do you get out to many shows? I'd suggest a trip to the DEMU Showcase event in Burton-on-Trent.

 

But then I've not seen many steam era layouts that have made me go 'wow', although I suspect that has a lot do with preference as steamers don't really float my boat - perhaps it also applies in your case.

 

G.

[Chamby]

Calcutta Sidings 2, Mostyn, Blackmills, Keir Hardy's Wibdenshaw, Canada Street, Jim Smith-Wright's BIrmingham New Street, ever heard of these?

 

Or by "leading figures" are you referring to the coterie of MRJ contributors whose names are only to be uttered in hushed tones?

 

By the way I don't like MPDs or noisy locos either.

 

steve

Yes I have seen some of these. I quite liked Mostyn, it was well built and well operated, but I have yet to see a diesel only layout that I would describe as truly exceptional. The modern image layouts I have seen are comparable to the majority of steam era ones, built to a decent club standard, albeit invariably running a range of RTR stock that always looks familiar. They are mostly good exhibition material, I’m not knocking them about that. It’s that topmost tier of modelling excellence that I haven’t seen yet in the diesel only era, something that you could call a ‘flagship’ layout, something truly aspirational that you would travel especially to see. I think if someone did build one, it could be a turning point for the genre, and I would Welcome that.

That's a shame because I've seen plenty. Do you get out to many shows? I'd suggest a trip to the DEMU Showcase event in Burton-on-Trent.

 

But then I've not seen many steam era layouts that have made me go 'wow', although I suspect that has a lot do with preference as steamers don't really float my boat - perhaps it also applies in your case.

 

G.

Yes preference does have something to do with it. As an ex-continental modeller who exhibited quite widely, I know all about people’s preferences and being on the receiving end of dismissive comments about that particular genre. I do genuinely believe that D&E modelling could deliver something really special, but I haven’t seen it yet and we are 50 years on from 1968!

[Ravenser]

The structure modelling on World's End is superlative. Which reminds me - another layout with very fine architectural work , and undoubtably a high reputation was Dewsbury Midland , and that ran as BR Blue diesel most of the time

 

 

 It does intrigue me though, that the Scottish scene seems to have become more 'modern image' oriented.  Maybe this is because there is more diesel stuff available RTR for Scottish modellers compared to steam era models?  

 

Nope. What seems to be at work is that a disproportionate number of the preferred prototype subjects for D+ E layouts are Scottish.  And it was a comment based on one show, in one year... One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

My feeling is that there is a real lack of prototypical layouts set in England outside the third-rail area /LT  ​  especially in 4mm. Cornish china clay lines are another "stock subject" as is the Woodhead route, but  there are very few authentic layouts representing diesel or 25kV lines. 

 

I'm aware that train length is an issue in the former Network South East area, where the standard operating unit is a 4-car EMU, and they are run in multiples at the peak. But that doesn't seem to stop the 3rd rail brigade. And frankly you have to think strategically and go for the prototypes that help you round the issue.

 

In conurbations outside London the standard EMU is 3 car. By modelling a regional conurbation you cut train lengths down to 3/6 car - and that's an immediate 25% saving in length. And in those areas there are a lot of DMU services using 2 car units. West Yorkshire in the 1980s was swarming with 2 car DMUs of multiple types and eras.  2 x 2 car DMU is going to be a maximum 4' long if you are running modern 23m vehicles ; if we are talking about low-density Modernisation Plan DMUs on short underframe you're down to no more than 3'3". A Pacer + Sprinter lash-up, as seen in the North of England at times in the past ,is 38".  There are sound reasons why my layout - a minimum space affair - is based on a provincial county town served by only by DMUs. 2 and 3 car trains are entirely prototypical and I don't have to build catenary

 

(And can we add Hedges Hill Cutting, Stoney Lane and Banbury - all in N - to the inspirational layouts list?)

[Norm81]

 What seems to be at work is that a disproportionate number of the preferred prototype subjects for D+ E layouts are Scottish.  And it was a comment based on one show, in one year... One swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

Maybe as the prototype lends itself to smaller spaces whilst still being convincing, lots of loco haulage, single line, short freights.

 

Alcanman on here has produced several short layouts all of the post-modernisation plan era.

 

Not sure if already mentioned, but there's also Shelvington, Widnes Vine Yard (with prototypical singalling operation like no other I've ever seen) and Newhaven Harbour.

[Ravenser]

Maybe as the prototype lends itself to smaller spaces whilst still being convincing, lots of loco haulage, single line, short freights.

 

Alcanman on here has produced several short layouts all of the post-modernisation plan era.

 

Not sure if already mentioned, but there's also Shelvington, Widnes Vine Yard (with prototypical singalling operation like no other I've ever seen) and Newhaven Harbour.

 

Shelvington is an excellent layout. Not sure I'd put it in the "All Time  Top 10 Great Layouts" but still a very good, authentic layout. Brighton East is another excellent 3rd rail layout. Again , in "second echelon layouts" I'd mention ?Addison Road (it's not exactly "modern image as there's a trolleybus and COP stock) and Portsea in 3mm

 

But again - this poses the very pertinent question : if there are quite a few good third-rail layouts out there , where are all the 25kV suburban layouts ? There's just as much overhead electric these days , but we have a very solid group of 4mm third rail layouts , and next to no overhead unless it's Manchester-Sheffield/Wath. The train lengths north and south of the Thames are just the same - train length is not an insuperable obstacle to the third-rail brigade, but somehow it is for everyone else , even though 3 car EMUs are the norm in regional conurbations.

 

And as I've already pointed out, commuter DMU operations potentially offer quite manageable train lengths - but that's totally ignored. Valley Lines anyone?

 

Rowntree Sidings is another excellent layout , the trains aren't that long - but nobody else seems interested in exploring that theme either.

[Phil Parker]

But again - this poses the very pertinent question : if there are quite a few good third-rail layouts out there , where are all the 25kV suburban layouts ? There's just as much overhead electric these days , but we have a very solid group of 4mm third rail layouts , and next to no overhead unless it's Manchester-Sheffield/Wath. The train lengths north and south of the Thames are just the same - train length is not an insuperable obstacle to the third-rail brigade, but somehow it is for everyone else , even though 3 car EMUs are the norm in regional conurbations.

 

 

I doubt train length is the issue. Knitting the overhead in a convincing way capable to being transported is. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Andi Dell has managed it with Dagworth and Ravenclyffe.

[Phil Parker]

Andi Dell has managed it with Dagworth and Ravenclyffe.

 

Anything is possible - but OLE is complex and that's what puts most people off I suspect.

[Suzie]

Lack of RTR overhead stock is a big issue with suburban electric layouts. All we have is a 350, and that is dual voltage! Bring on a manufacturer making PEP derived EMUs (they are third rail too) and some Mk1s and we might stand a chance. 313 will be a good start being dual voltage and only 3-car.

 

The 3-car 306 (I know it is LNER) can be made as a DC equivalent that will work on all those Woodhead layouts so there will be a ready market, and I am sure that Mk1 302/303/304/305/308/310/311 are similar enough that some common components can make a range economical of at least some of them. That just leaves Altrincham EMUs, 312 and 309 as early overhead EMUs that might be a bit niche that were still in use in the '80s.

 

More modern EMUs (like the 350) will be in use for many years to come so should have an excellent future with those wanting to model the contemporary scene. I would have thought that AC would not be any more niche than N-gauge if something was actually available to buy.