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Class 37 push-pull operations


amaninspired
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I was hoping that I might be able to ask a few questions about the capabilities of Class 37/4 locomotives to work with Mk2f DBSOs. I am aware that DRS has been operating these on Cumbrian coast services in recent years, but I am wondering when and how these locomotives acquired a push-pull capability?

 

The main questions that I have are:

 

1. What push-pull equipment is fitted to the 37/4s (i.e. were these locomotives retrofitted with suitable equipment to ensure compatibility with the DBSOs; did they already have the capability through blue star multiple working equipment; or is there another technical explanation)?

2. If they had to be retrofitted with push-pull equipment, when was this done?

3. If the push-pull capability existed from the outset using multiple working equipment, is anyone aware of any occasions when 37/4s substituted for 47/7s on the ScotRail Express services between Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen in the 1980s, making use of push-pull working?

4. If they did not have push-pull capability when initially rebuilt as 37/4s, is anyone aware of them working sets of ScotRail Express push-pull rolling stock on a pull-only basis (as occasionally happened with Class 47s in the event of unavailability of a 47/7 or a fault in the push-pull equipment)?

 

Any information is very much appreciated!

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DBSO is worked via a Blue Star arrangement and they have been retro fitted with a control pipe and blue star equipment. A 37 controller has been installed instead of the old unit type controller. If I remember right the NR versions use a 31 controller.

 

Previous use on Intercity services was via the Time Division Multiplex (TDM) using the RCH cables.

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DBSO is worked via a Blue Star arrangement and they have been retro fitted with a control pipe and blue star equipment. A 37 controller has been installed instead of the old unit type controller. If I remember right the NR versions use a 31 controller.

Previous use on Intercity services was via the Time Division Multiplex (TDM) using the RCH cables.

Thanks, so the modification required for the DRS workings was to the DBSO, rather than the 37/4? Edited by amaninspired
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Yes the TDM equipment was removed, the cupboard is still in brakevan. Bluestar was added on so we have a jumper cable and throttle pipes, also note the MK2s have had to have these additional fitments added as well.

Excludes the possibility of 37/4 push-pull working in the 1980s; but not, necessarily, of them pulling sets of push-pull stock. That’s not something I ever saw, but I remain curious as to whether anyone else ever saw that?

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Wasn't the original DBSO push pull tried out with a 37 doing the pushing?

 

Andy G

 

37s were used in some of the push pull trials prior to the 27s being introduced on the E-G route.  These trials used a converted Mk1 BSK as a driving trailer.  37s also appeared from time to time as substitutes for the 27s once the full service started. 

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Excludes the possibility of 37/4 push-pull working in the 1980s; but not, necessarily, of them pulling sets of push-pull stock. That’s not something I ever saw, but I remain curious as to whether anyone else ever saw that?

Push/Pull rakes sometimes found their way to Inverness when I lived there in the 80’s, and sometimes DBSOs appeared in ‘normal’ rakes from Edinburgh or Glasgow. They were usually 47 hauled. Never saw a 37 on a push/pull rake or a rake including a DBSO but that doesn’t mean it never happened.

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37s were used in some of the push pull trials prior to the 27s being introduced on the E-G route.  These trials used a converted Mk1 BSK as a driving trailer.  37s also appeared from time to time as substitutes for the 27s once the full service started. 

 

Were Class 37s and 50s only used in timing trials for pulling on the E-G route? did they push as well?

 

I dont remember ever seeing a Class 37 on a push-pull rake with DBSO, but if they were would as a station pilot at Glasgow Queen street be the best bet if the set was being used as a normal hauled rake? Pretty sure I've seen photos of a Class 26 departing Queen Street presumably with an ECS of a push-pull rake

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Were Class 37s and 50s only used in timing trials for pulling on the E-G route? did they push as well?

 

 

 

The 50 didn't push because it wasn't compatible with the test train driving trailer.  In fact it is reported it used a different set of stock entirely.  My understanding is that the 37s did push the test stock on the trials.

 

37s could not push DBSOs in E-G configuration as this required FDM equipment which only the Scottish 47/7s had.  As has already been said the DBSOs being pushed by 37s in recent times have been modified to operate with blue star locomotives.

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Plenty of pulling but alas no pushing!

The 26 is working the train conventionally as could any other air braked loco.

 

The 37/4s are working with mark 2 air con stock so not push pull rakes either.

 

Edit-

The basic history of E-G push pull-

T&T 27s with the coaching stock blue star through wired, basically any blue star (air braked) loco could be used. 

Then

47/7 with DBSO, the only locos that could work PP had to be fitted with FDM equipment which was only the 47/7s, anything else had to haul the train conventionally.

 

After the unit takeover of the E-G the DBSOs eventually found work elsewhere and the DBSOs were modified to work with the locos they needed to, the locos were not modified (okay there were some modifications to the fire systems etc but as I said at the beginning this is the basics), just because the DBSOs can now work with many different locos doesnt mean they could 'back in the day'.

Edited by royaloak
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I don't recall any instances of 37s (or any loco other than the 47/7s) working throughout between Queen St and Edinburgh with a push-pull set. Regarding the picture GordonC posted, what we did sometimes do, in the event of a fault on the DBSO meaning it could not be driven from, was either shunt release the 47/7 at Queen St so it could work the train, or else turn the train via the triangle at Cowlairs; The leading loco ex Queen St would detach at Cowlairs West Jc and the 47/7 would take the train forward. 

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I don't recall any instances of 37s (or any loco other than the 47/7s) working throughout between Queen St and Edinburgh with a push-pull set. Regarding the picture GordonC posted, what we did sometimes do, in the event of a fault on the DBSO meaning it could not be driven from, was either shunt release the 47/7 at Queen St so it could work the train, or else turn the train via the triangle at Cowlairs; The leading loco ex Queen St would detach at Cowlairs West Jc and the 47/7 would take the train forward. 

 

would that not just shift the problem to Edinburgh if the set could not be driven from the DBSO end? was there a spare set somewhere that it could be swapped easily?

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We had the DBSOs on our Intercity jobs at Stratford, they were quite problematic to start with trying to get the TDM to configure, as the years progressed they earned the nickname 'Scuds' as the always left their departure point but rarely made their destination!

 

You'd think TDM was a set given but there must have been some variances, they did try Class 90s on them but again they were problematic, as I recall Penny Black being a regular deputiser at the time.

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Edit-

The basic history of E-G push pull-

T&T 27s with the coaching stock blue star through wired, basically any blue star (air braked) loco could be used. 

Then

47/7 with DBSO, the only locos that could work PP had to be fitted with FDM equipment which was only the 47/7s, anything else had to haul the train conventionally.

Agreed, that is the timescale

The earlier Top and Tail is easier to recognise as the sets were Mark 2 non-air conditioning coaches with a BSO, no DBSO

If one Class 27 was not available then one Class 37/0 could be used

Two Class 37/0 could have been used, but then the set would not have any ETH

At that time there were no Class 37/4

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If the trailing loco wasn't a p-p cl.27,then it had to be separately manned as there was no automatic fire system on normal locos.

As an aside, the E-G line traction/stock was reckoned to need upgrading approx every 10 yrs in order to remain competitive with the bus/coach services of the day. This was particularly keenly felt when the M8 came into being.

Class 37/47/50 locos would arguably have been more appropriate but in 1969 or so, there just weren't any available.

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I don't recall any instances of 37s (or any loco other than the 47/7s) working throughout between Queen St and Edinburgh with a push-pull set. Regarding the picture GordonC posted, what we did sometimes do, in the event of a fault on the DBSO meaning it could not be driven from, was either shunt release the 47/7 at Queen St so it could work the train, or else turn the train via the triangle at Cowlairs; The leading loco ex Queen St would detach at Cowlairs West Jc and the 47/7 would take the train forward. 

 

 

That could only have arisen from an out of course working surely? The E&G's had to leave Queen St. with the 47/7 leading not trailing - not to say the loco and set didn't occasionally end up wrong turned but the instructions to meet the appendix requirements were if that happened the whole set was to be turned at the earliest opportunity - not stick on the nearest incompatible loco you could find like a 37/4.  (incompatible in the sense of no other locomotives were equipped with BR/Brush Traction 2-wire control equipment).  If the 47/7 failed at the Glasgow end and a spare 47/7 was available at Eastfield the norm. was to use it to replace the inbound one.  With a pool originally of twelve loco's for five (working diagrams) any loco failures were by replacement with another 47/7 - If the fault was in the 2-wire control equipment and the DBSO or the set was suspected the set was worked as normal (hauled) to Edinburgh for replacement by the sixth diagrammed set providing it was off maintenance at Craigentinny and where possible with a fresh 47/7 off Haymarket.

 

And no, no other locomotives were regularly used for this service other than the 47/7's during that time. 

Edited by Bob Reid
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