RTR vs Kits... Economics, Variety and Quality: a discussion.

[sem34090]

As promised in my RTR NER Locomotives thread!

 

The discussion might be better continued here.

[Spannerman]

Wouldn't this be better in the 'Modelling musings and miscellany' thread rather than one for Hornby?

 

Also I'd say this has been done to death in various threads, not least Wright writes.

 

Nik

[Dick Turpin]

this has been done to death in various threads, 

 

So it has, and so the thread title should also be RTR + kits, rather than Vs kits and then we might have some theoretical peace and modelling harmony, for there can be no other way of creating any model scene in any period full stop. RTR might help, but you are going to get no-where without building stuff yourself, either from kits or from scratch unless you are rich enough to pay someone else to do it for you!

[pheaton]

How do Hornby and Bachmann manage in their catalogues then? Looks like a modelscene to me....

[truffy]

So it has, and so the thread title should also be RTR + kits, rather than Vs kits and then we might have some theoretical peace and modelling harmony, for there can be no other way of creating any model scene in any period full stop. RTR might help, but you are going to get no-where without building stuff yourself, either from kits or from scratch unless you are rich enough to pay someone else to do it for you!

The main point, though, is that this has no place in the Hornby-specific forum.

[Dick Turpin]

The main point, though, is that this has no place in the Hornby-specific forum.

 

Not guilty your honour!

[sem34090]

I apologise.

 

Firstly, looking back this is in the wrong place. I only put it here so as to divert the topic off another thread in this section!

 

Secondly, I agree with much of the sentiment above!

[The Johnster]

My requirments for stock on a BLT served by Tondu allocated locos in the  50s can be very completely met from RTR products, and I have not finished buying all of them yet; an 8750, possibly a 45xx as opposed to 4575, and the Baccy 94xx if it ever materialises are on the list.  This does not take into account all the livery variations I want to include and which are one of the reasons for modelling this period.  However, there are locos from Tondu which I cannot source from RTR and will need to either scratch build or use kits, if they are available which is a matter of increasing dispute these days. 

 

Tondu was home to some Valleys esoterica, including, as alluded to, 4557, of which the purpose at Tondu eludes me, 44xx for the Porthcawl branch's curves (these locos were periodically turned to even out flange wear, but were allowed 25mph when all others were restricted to 5 on the curves), and 3100, class leader of the ultimate large prairie, Collett's 1936 version with 5'3" wheels and No.4 boiler.  This was used on the daily Porthcawl-Cardiff commuter service, SWML from Bridgend ; Canton had 3105 for the reciprocal.  4545 can be renumbered from a Baccy RTR, and the 44xx are, or were, available as K's kits; these are within my skillset comfort zone but I am not sure I can be bothered with the faff and expense for a loco who's presence on Tondu's Valleys branches is debatable at best.  The same can be said for the 31xx, a scratch build as to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever produced a kit for this loco, but I am particularly fond of this impressive and powerful prairie and reckon something might be cobbled up with a re-wheeled 61xx chassis/footplate and a construction kit CoT boiler, married to some scratchbuilt cab and bunker parts and a new chimney.

 

Coaching stock, in the form of pre-1927 auto trailers and non-corridor compartment, is more fertile ground for kit and scratch building, though I nurse the hope that Dapol will reduce scale their Diagram N trailer for 4mm.  I reckon I can manage a scratchbuilt matchboard trailer such as an A9, so long as I can source castings for the bogies.

 

What relevance is this old codger's inane ramblings, you ask.  Well, I reckon I am fairly typical of many modellers, and my wants and 'needs' for kit and RTR stock probably reflect those of anyone in my position who has been around a few years and remembers when nearly all the stock on a decent layout was at least kit if not scratch built (often to a standard inferior to 21st century RTR but we did our best) and home finished.  We are dying off, as are the kit manufacturers who supported us; the future seems to me divided into RTR (can be done to a very high standard, no complaints here) and esoterica (used that word twice today) requiring scratch building throughout (mixed gauge Oxford in the 1840s, or the Listowel and Ballybunion if you cannot afford 2 rail track).  

 

I still reckon even full price RTR works out as both cheaper and higher quality for most folks than equivalent kit building by the time the model is finished and some costing allowed for the time you spent on it, but this fails to account for the satisfaction of successfully building it and painting it yourself.  Painting, lettering, and detailing RTR can be very satisfying as well, often necessary to get the livery I want in my case, but this sort of satisfaction is difficult to quantify in economic terms.

 

My plan is to defer my kit building or scratchbuilding until my RTR needs are met, something with which to scratch (sorry) my modelling itch in my dotage when everything RTR or RTP has been bought and put on the layout.  The 31xx may end up as a non-running shelf display model.  For now, I am getting plenty satisfaction from the modelling that I am doing, and from operation, which has always been the real motive for my modelling; realistic operation of the most realistic trains I can manage,

Edited February 23, 2018 by The Johnster

[jjb1970]

If people prefer kits they'll buy kits regardless of whether or not RTR alternatives are available. I think that for the great majority of modellers RTR will run better and be better finished as well as being cheaper by the time you've bought everything you need. And many people just enjoy running trains. I think the market has spoken on this one.

[drgj]

One big difference I have found is that when I have finished building or working on something for ages the enjoyment of the new model lasts a lot longer than when buying a rtr. I often buy rtr and really look forward to it arriving but then just put it away! Also the things I build are often very cheap in materials. I like both, though.

 

Dave

Edited March 6, 2018 by drgj

[tomparryharry]

For me personally, the kits meet a rather large gap in the railway model market. Yes, I do have RTR, and I enjoy it. However, there was a time in recent past where RTR couldn't cover the gap, with kits being the 'only show in town'.

 

I've got some many & varied kits, all in various stages of storage. Some will be done sooner, some later. I know that if I choose, I can come back to them. The RTR is more the 'finished article'.

 

I would like to finish my 42xx tank: weighing over a kilo in weight, it's geared to pull a house down. I know I will spend far more than the Hornby version, but the Cotswold model appeared sooner.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[grahame]

I don't see it as a 'versus' or either/or option. Both kits and RTR (and scratch-building) are complementary in the model railway world and offer enthusiasts increased range, opportunities and additional challenges. It would be a very much diminished hobby without either.

 

G

[coachmann]

From what I read on RMweb, a good many people, particularly those who depends hugely on RTR, are loco-centric and write reams about their loco needs while one sentence covers their coaching stock requirements. Each to his own naturally.

 

I tried to fill my ex.GWR coaching stock needs with RTR, but it was doomed from the start. A Hawksworth Auto Trailer had to suffice when I needed Collett trailers from the 1930's. No way would an ancient Hornby suffice.  Up to the minute models are only Hornby BE 57 footers and Hawksworth stock, so it was obvious I would have to build the rest.

Edited March 6, 2018 by coachmann

[cheesysmith]

I do wonder with the rising prices of RTR if there is a market for the old CKD range, especially in the wagon department. Or are the price rises on the old toolings that are largely clip together not due to the rise in the wages in china? After all, the wages cost of something like the old HAA cannot be such to account for the rise in the RRP of such a basic model?

 

A simple clip together wagon, with coloured plastic, and maybe 2 passes through a tampo printing, in a plastic bag for the user to assemble designed to be sold off of hooks in the model shop cheaply. I. Sure there is a market.

[hayfield]

There is something to say about the new ready to run models certainly in the looks department, with detail only a very few talented model makers can achieve, but at a price to match the detail. What is rather worrying is the quality of some models mechanically 

 

However the shear pleasure in building kit locos to those of us who enjoy modelmaking is as had been said far surpasses the momentary satisfaction of opening a box and looking at your latest acquisition. On the price front a good quality kit with all the parts required to finish it may still be slightly dearer than a RTR product. On the other hand a large amount of kits bought never get built, and if a kanny bit of buying is undertaken on the second hand market huge savings can be made especially if a bit of mix and matching of items are made.

 

If your pleasure is running trains then why build stock ! If you have time constraints they you may be forced down the RTR route. Conversely if your pleasure is building then why buy a RTR model   

[PenrithBeacon]

I think that the RTR market has replaced the white metal kit for most modellers. It hasn't replaced the brass/nickel silver kit which is a very specialised area of railway modelling reserved for the few who have the skills and aptitude.

 

There is also the 3D printing process and I think that, given time, this will replace much of the etched kits market as the size issue of the FED quality improves.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I do wonder with the rising prices of RTR if there is a market for the old CKD range, especially in the wagon department. Or are the price rises on the old toolings that are largely clip together not due to the rise in the wages in china? After all, the wages cost of something like the old HAA cannot be such to account for the rise in the RRP of such a basic model?

 

A simple clip together wagon, with coloured plastic, and maybe 2 passes through a tampo printing, in a plastic bag for the user to assemble designed to be sold off of hooks in the model shop cheaply. I. Sure there is a market.

 

How much is "cheaply". If the kit has to be specially tooled and sells in less volume than RTR, then it may be dearer. 

 

POWsides already supply Slaters 4mm wagon kits with sides and ends pre-painted and transfers applied at £12.05. Would that be a suitable ballpark figure? They would also be a better introduction to kit assembly than a clip together kit.

[tomparryharry]

Oooh, let's see...

 

a Baccy 16t mineral, with it's unique 10' wheelbase, or a POWsides  private owner, which is pretty good in all respects. £16-odd for the Baccy, £12-odd for the POWside. Mind made up. It's slightly cheaper and I get the wagon rake I'd want.

 

Cheers folks,

 

Ian.

[Mad McCann]

I use both RTR and kits. There’s no denying the satisfaction you get from seeing your latest project running nicely. You have more or less complete control of the process and once you have a bit of experience, you can create something that runs very sweetly indeed.

Having until recently worked in EM and have now largely reverted to OO on account of the very nicely running mechanisms which, once you’ve had them apart and regauged them rarely, if ever, run as well as they did before conversion.

Secondly, such is the finesse of appearance now that matching that standard with a cast kit is rather difficult.

 

I find a decent weathering treatment of either serves as a pretty effective leveller.

 

D4

[Clive Mortimore]

Oooh, let's see...

 

a Baccy 16t mineral, with it's unique 10' wheelbase, or a POWsides  private owner, which is pretty good in all respects. £16-odd for the Baccy, £12-odd for the POWside. Mind made up. It's slightly cheaper and I get the wagon rake I'd want.

 

Cheers folks,

 

Ian.

Ian

 

The Bachmann 16 ton mineral wagon has a 36mm wheelbase.

 

Are you referring to the old Mainline model , which makes a great late build 16ton, the ones with 10 ft underframes from ex midfits and palbricks.

 

You could always build the Parkside 16 ton Mineral. PC 54 , riveted body, PC21 welded body, or PC 19 welded body, vacuum fitted brake. 

 

The Dapol (ex Airfix) is also a good model for its age.

[Ravenser]

Oooh, let's see...

 

a Baccy 16t mineral, with it's unique 10' wheelbase, or a POWsides  private owner, which is pretty good in all respects. £16-odd for the Baccy, £12-odd for the POWside. Mind made up. It's slightly cheaper and I get the wagon rake I'd want.

 

Cheers folks,

 

Ian.

 

Or Ratio Southern box van for well under a tenner plays Bachmann model for £16.50 . In the same shop. Plain Bauxite or grey isn;'t too hard to paint

[tomparryharry]

Ian

 

The Bachmann 16 ton mineral wagon has a 36mm wheelbase.

 

Are you referring to the old Mainline model , which makes a great late build 16ton, the ones with 10 ft underframes from ex midfits and palbricks.

 

You could always build the Parkside 16 ton Mineral. PC 54 , riveted body, PC21 welded body, or PC 19 welded body, vacuum fitted brake. 

 

The Dapol (ex Airfix) is also a good model for its age.

 

I've just ordered a couple of Cambrian 9' underframe kits. I've not used them before.

 

Ian.

[cheesysmith]

When people say the cost of a CKD wagon, look at what was posted by the proprietor of little loco company. He has just started a new injection moulding company, and using the figure he has provided, you could have 4 16ton wagon bodies and underframes per 2 moulds. The price for a 100,000 run would work out at just under 30p per wagon. To this you would need to add the cost of wheels and packaging and distribution to get at the wholesale price.

 

Is there a figure out there for the costs of tampo printing, and what 200,000 wheels would cost.

[PatB]

Bu

 

When people say the cost of a CKD wagon, look at what was posted by the proprietor of little loco company. He has just started a new injection moulding company, and using the figure he has provided, you could have 4 16ton wagon bodies and underframes per 2 moulds. The price for a 100,000 run would work out at just under 30p per wagon. To this you would need to add the cost of wheels and packaging and distribution to get at the wholesale price.

Is there a figure out there for the costs of tampo printing, and what 200,000 wheels would cost.

But is there a market for 100,000 CKD 16T minerals? That sounds like a big number, even for the glory days of the 1960s, let alone the smaller and considerably more fragmented railway modelling world of today.

[sem34090]

I'm back. Again...

 

I feel like doing a comparison between identical loco classes, both kit and RTR.

 

So, on Friday, Hattons will be releasing a model of the SECR P class 0-6-0T.

 

Currently available is the South Eastern Finecast kit for the same.

 

Now, the Hattons model will be retailing at £99, including VAT and will be fully finished.

 

The S.E. Finecast kit, excluding Wheels and Motor, retails at £84.50 excluding wheels, but including VAT.

Add to that the cost of the wheel pack (£27.50) and the kit now costs £112, and still has no motor or gears and has still to be built, painted and have transfers applied.

So you're looking at over £130 (minimum) for the kit, compared with under £100 (just) for the RTR.

 

Now, I have a Wills Finecast P that I picked up (beautifully built, finished and lined) for £55, so this is all irrelevant to me, but if I was to be buying a new P I would be going for the RTR simply because it is cheaper. I have not got £130< to spend on a loco which there is a strong possibility of it never being able to run due to my mucking it up during construction. To be honest, I don't even have £130< to spend on any loco, but when there is a high chance of me wrecking it, I can't justify it.

 

It seems to me that you have to have been lucky enough to have been around when kits did almost guarantee a better model than RTR to be able to justify buying them now. I never had that, and to me (as someone who does enjoy making stuff) the way forward is to design my own CAD and get it 3D printed at a price much lower than both Kit and RTR - my LSWR G6 is currently planned to be retailing at £30 - £40, including chassis, or £20 - £30 to fit an RTR chassis. The SE Finecast kit for the G6 currently retails at £42 without a chassis, and there is no RTR G6 currently.

 

So, conclusion? I would love to start building whitemetal kits, but until I find one cheap enough second hand I am unlikely to start building them due to their cost. I cannot afford to muck a model up when it costs £100< for a kit. I now see RTR as a starting point, and try and buy kitbuilt locos to detail up over RTR. I am currently bashing a Bachmann E4 (picked up for £35) and the remains of an old Wills E5 together to create an E5 that will be well-detailed and I know will run.