Blackstone West

[sem34090]

So, a layout.

 

I have had too many ideas winging around inside my head recently, today's one being Blodwell Junction on the former Cambrian Railway.

 

I have yet to measure it out, but it seems to me that, with a bit of compression and careful design this could form the basis as somewhere to run a range of pre-grouping stock, Cambrian obviously, but perhaps also (If I make certain features removable) LBSCR? For one the signalling is of pretty much identical design, but the plan is attractive because it seems to have some degree of operational interest in a small space.

 

Also, Blodwell would give me somewhere to run my BR Era GWR stock, which I am currently working out what to do with!

 

Any thoughts?

 

Edit, 06/08/2018: I have now settled on a plan, based on North Greenwich on the Millwall Extension Railway, but very much set on the LBSCR. The layout is to be named 'Blackstone West' and is to be set very much within the same alternate universe and 'canon' as 'Blackstone-in-the-Strait' (Indeed in the same town), 'Castle Aching', 'Oak Hill', 'Linton', 'The Kelsby Light Railway' as well as 'The Areley Kings & Abberley Light Railway'. As such, the thread has been renamed, and will now form my main layout thread. Other layouts may appear here occasionally, but this will mostly be about Blackstone West. Posts relating to Blackstone West specifically commence here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131941-sem34090s-pre-grouping-layout-planning/?p=3246118

-------------------

Edit, 11/05/2020: For now, Blackstone West is on the backburner. The layout currently referred to as such has gained a new identity as it wasn't really adequate to represent the Blackstone West I have in my mind.

Edited May 11, 2020 by sem34090

[BlueLightning]

BR Era GWR stock, which I am currently working out what to do with!

 

Any thoughts?

 

Sell it all to buy more LB&SCR stock? Oh you wanted thoughts about the layout!

 

Well in that case, yes it does seem like a nice compact plan, I'm sure you could make something good of it!

 

Gary

[sem34090]

Well... funny you should say that!

 

My latest layout scheme is modular, and is actually the most likely to happen, and it's LBSCR!

 

Bognor - Barnham Junction, then perhaps on to Littlehampton:

[BlueLightning]

What a great idea!!!

 

If you are making modular stuff, and if it is portable, can I suggest you consider the Britmod-00 standards? My exhibition layout has been built to these so far, and there are a few others. Would be nice to try and revive it!!

 

Gary

[sem34090]

Unfortunately I already belong to a group with their own modular standards, so Britmod is unlikely I'm afraid.

[BlueLightning]

Damn!! Worth a try!!!

 

Gary

[sem34090]

You never know! I may make a couple of adapters.

[sem34090]

Soooooooooooooo...

 

Bognor and Barnham are still most definitely planned, but are further back in my plans than they had been. Narrow gauge aside, and prompted by some discussion with Lancaster622, I have decided that I will soon start on yet-another micro layout. This will probably be an enlarged, and pre-grouping, version of 'Ealing East', but laid out in a slightly different format and with considerably greater operational interest. I've decided that the upper level will be more developed, and will be able to cope with more than one loco and coach, and the lower level will have an extra siding to aid operational interest. One of the sidings will also disappear back under the upper (passenger) line to allow wagons to be exchanged.

 

The plan is that buildings and other company-indicating features will be exchangeable, though primarily LBSCR, to enable a range of locos to be accommodated. The upper level will be finished permanently as an LBSCR station, with ballasting over the sleepers, etc, whilst the lower level will be more generic with ash ballast used throughout. This will allow GWR, SECR, LSWR and even GER, NLR, LNWR, GNR, MR and Met locos to all visit on occasion. The very nature of the layout with its raised and compact terminus dictates a London setting, especially if locos of the aforementioned companies are to visit. I will require a suitably generic (neither East nor West) name for the station, and this I ask for someone to suggest. Missenden Street has been considered, given my username.

 

The current thinking with operation is that a 'Mainline' loco will arrive in the yard with the goods train, which will then be shunted by either my Peckett W4 'Martlet' (If operating in pre-1921 mode) or my Barclay 14'' 'Coronation' (Soon to be renamed and possibly get an earlier cab) if in post-1921 mode. The shunting will continue until a new outgoing train has been formed. A mainline loco will then enter with a brakevan ready to take the train out and restart the sequence.

Passenger operations can consist of either railmotors, motor trains, railcars or the use of an engine kept in the bay to take out conventional stock.

I have used BR MK1's (64ft) and GWR 5700's to offer a rough scale. I equate 1 MK1 to be roughly two four-wheelers. A 5700 is considerably larger than most of the locos being considered for use, the largest of these currently in my ownership being an LBSCR E2, though A1's and SECR P's are going to be the more usual suspects.

 

 

[sem34090]

I have now decided that the top and bottom levels are to be able to be altered between LBSCR and SECR, as such the following combinations will be used:

 

LBSCR (Yard) + SECR (Station)

LBSCR (Yard) + LBSCR (Station)

SECR (Yard) + LBSCR (Station)

SECR (Yard) + SECR (Station)

 

This will be the SECR Station building I will probably use:

[sem34090]

It's been a while...

 

Now whilst I still want a small micro layout to replace 'Ealing East' at shows (As per the above plan) my thoughts have turned towards a 'proper' layout again. Now I have about 5ft of length total for this, though I could potentially have that as just the length of the scenic section if shunting can take place without the Fiddle Yard. Obviously passenger workings would have to make use of a Fiddle Yard.

 

Now, the LBSCR really didn't abound in small branch line termini... They all seem to be too long for my purposes. The best plan for a small BLT that is even remotely connected to the 'Brighton I've found so far is North Greenwich on the Milwall Extension Railway!!! The connection to the Brighton being thus:

And no more! Even so, the station is rather appealing and compact, so I may use the trackplan from it anyway, albeit in a fictional setting - More on that later.

That said those little MER Manning Wardles by Mr Connor (L49) of this Parish are really very nice and that would be a prototypical environment for them...

 

As for LBSCR terminus prototypes:

 

Hayling Island is too much of a cliche... and is still slightly too big...

Dyke is too long and too simple really.

Kemp Town is too big.

East Southsea is too long.

Bognor is too long.

Littlehampton is too long.

Hastings (terminus) is too long.

And there weren't many others!

 

As such I'm imagining a fictional scheme East of Hastings .

 

I'm thinking of an unlikely, and ultimately unprofitable and failed extension that was once planned to be the LBSCR's link to the better cross-channel ports. Trouble is the Hastings - Ashford line of the SER opened rather too early (1851), and the Brighton wasn't much up for direct competition - it preferred to hold onto its existing market and territory rather than try and encroach onto other company's territory. Mind you, the LBSCR reached Hastings in 1846 so perhaps at that time an Eastern extension was still a possibility? I'm thinking of an LBSCR line getting at least as far East as Winchelsea, perhaps even to Rye. I could just cheat and have the LBSCR with a separate terminus on the Eastern side of the fictional town of Blackstone (See Alex's thread in the Pre-Grouping section for more on this, if you are unfamiliar with this fictional place), but I'm less sure about that.  The idea would be that this line would either have closed by the grouping, or very soon afterwards being served only by short branch trains for most of its existence, the grand plan of reaching Folkestone and/or Dover never being achieved.

 

I quite like that idea actually, and it gives me an excuse for my SECR stock to appear on occasion...

 

Any thoughts? I haven't decided absolutely where this terminus-that-wasn't-supposed-to-remain-one should go yet, but I like the idea.

Edited July 27, 2018 by sem34090

[sem34090]

Actually - Looking at the North Greenwich plan I think I could use, or at least adapt, it to suit my fictional scheme, as it has the look of a temporary terminus - the loco siding that could perhaps have been installed with the idea of double-tracking later, the lack of platform behind the buffer-stops and I could widen the gap between the siding and loop to suggest the future location of a second platform.

 

Of course, in the future I could always use these features to allow me to re-build it as a through station...

 

Just a thought...

[BlueLightning]

I'm not sure about an LB&SCR terminus to the east of Hastings, although it could work (and besides it's your railway!!!)

 

but if you are after a "temporary" terminus in a small space the LB&SCR does have a trackplan that could be adapted, and I'm sure you could manage in 5ft!!

 

Gary

 

[sem34090]

It's a possibility, and I was rather concerned about my Eastward expansion, which would have had to have taken place in the late 1840s by my reckoning, when there was an outside chance of the LBSCR getting ahead of the SER East from Hastings.

 

Currently I have three potential 'stories' for this Eastern twig, a withered arm if you like, of the LBSC, depending on where the terminus will be.

 

All of them start with the LBSCR pushing East from Bulverhythe into Hastings, arriving at the latter in October 1847 and pushing Eastwards, reaching Winchelsea by the end of 1848. Here is where the 'stories' divide:

 

Winchelsea

 

By the time the LBSCR had opened to Winchelsea it was becoming quickly apparent that the South Eastern was to be building its own route to Hastings from Ashford, and sure enough that extension was to open three years after the LBSCR branch opened. Thence the line was never extended beyond Winchelsea, but managed to retain a sparse local service to and from Hastings for many years, the line not actually closing until 1914, when as with some other loss-making lines in other parts of the country the track was torn up for the war effort. After the end of the Great War, the track was never reinstated and over time the remaining infrastructure was either turned over to new usage, decayed or was demolished. Much passenger traffic had already been lost to the South Eastern route, despite the superiority of the Brighton stock and the attempts to use railmotors and motor-trains on the branch, and what little was left had soon transferred. 

 

Rye

 

The extension to Rye opened not long after that to Winchelsea, in May 1849 and for a brief time was relatively profitable, being the only rail connection to the town for a number of months. Once the South Eastern route arrived traffic began to dwindle somewhat, as the new route offered a marginally quicker service, and at any rate at that time offered some degree of greater comfort. LBSC trains had the rather formidable Fairlight bank to contend with, to the East of Ore, whereas the SER route was somewhat flatter. Eventually, in 1862, a connection was added between the LBSCR and SER stations at Rye but remained little used. The branch became the preserve of elderly locos and stock, though one Up working and a corresponding Down working to and from London Bridge was offered until 1893, latterly headed by the likes of Stroudley's D2's. In time the line became home to railmotors and motor-trains which had limited success in regaining traffic, but the line hung on until the coming of war, in which it proved a useful secondary route for traffic headed for the Channel ports. Despite this the end was to come at some stage, with passenger services ceasing in 1932, the last goods service running in 1935.

 

Blackstone West

 

Having reached Rye, and with the South Eastern route fast becoming an apparent threat, the decision was taken to give up on any vain attempt at tapping into the traffic from Folkestone and Dover and to instead attempt to capitalise on the growing tourist and day-trip traffic to the small town of Blackstone-in-the-Strait, not far to the Southeast of Rye and situated almost upon the border of Sussex and Kent. At this time there had been no South Eastern line built to the town, and so in 1851, in the same year as the SER's line from Ashford to Hastings, the LBSCR opened its terminus at Blackstone (The 'West' being added after the opening of the 'Town' Station of the SER.) and for some time saw blossoming traffic, with through carriages to both London Bridge and Victoria serving the town on a regular basis. It retained some of this traffic even after the opening of the SER line into the town, but this was not to last. After the construction of the pier in the 1870s, and the subsequent extension onto it by the SER, traffic began to dwindle on the line and slowly the service was reduced, and as is usual the line became something of a withered arm, home to ancient stock and later to motor-trains. During the Great War it had its uses as an alternative route to the channel ports, but the branch was on borrowed time. It scraped its way to the grouping, but closure came very soon after in 1926 and trains from Brighton and other parts of the central section were diverted over the former SECR route, some terminating at Blackstone Town and other services at the Pier. There had been a connection instated between the LBSCR and SECR stations in 1915, and for some time after closure this was used by goods trains due to the very limited yard space at the Town station, the connection diverging before the entrance into the Town station. The old West station was used by Goods trains until 1953, before it finally closed to all traffic. The Branch Westwards towards Hastings was lifted in 1930.

[sem34090]

So... I think I quite like the idea of 'Blackstone West' (Though I understand if the person who invented the place objects!)...

 

Here is the Signal Box diagram from early SR days (I know it wouldn't have been replaced, but I need to do more research into LBSCR diagrams), showing the later connection to the SECR at Blackstone Town, with the new signals being track circuited.

Not perfect, and the track plan is taken straight from North Greenwich, but I like it and think it could work in the space I have.

[sem34090]

A proper trackplan has now emerged! This is getting worryingly close to actually happening...

[sem34090]

Although in practice, with the boards I have, I've had to trim the plan back a bit, I do like the nice flow of the station approach, and I think it looks plausible for a terminus designed to, eventually, become a through station. I can't tell on the original (North Greenwich) plan if the siding on the far right (bottom on the plan above) is home to a loco shed or goods shed, and I'm not sure which to go for! Probably just leave it as a siding for now.

[sem34090]

Action!

I've had to alter the plan a bit to fit the board I have, and sadly have had to lose some of the 'flow' of the approach in order to make the platform road long enough to include my minimum of two 48ft Billinton (OK, Ratio Midland...) bogie coaches with enough room to run round them with a Billinton Radial Tank (My E4 and E5). Although there is a second board, and part of that will be scenic, I want a bit of a run into the station (I don't want the scenic break to be straddling the end of the pointwork, with trains just appearing straight into the station, and putting the pointwork on the other board would complicate matters, and would make the platform a bit too long for my liking. At any rate, most passenger workings will be formed of 4-wheelers or motor-trains, with the only non-motor bogie stock appearing being through coaches from London, allegedly... Anyway, here's some photos showing the current state of the trackplan, which (unless anyone raises serious objection) may become final and pinned down within the next week or so. I have had to wait until now to plan it out properly as the second 'Billinton' (Midland) bogie coach only arrived Yesterday, hence why it's not yet in Umber & Cream (I know it's supposed to be white, but I prefer the cream, and at any rate it would have yellowed slightly with time. Also I used the slightly flawed logic that, given the Pullman standard livery was based on the LBSCR livery, Humbrol's 'Pullman Umber' and 'Pullman Cream' would be suitable for LBSCR stock. At any rate I expect I'll eventually put these into Lined 'Mahogany' eventually)

 

On another note, with the layout being intended to cater for the period up to 1915, from around 1890, possibly 1900. Now, does this mean I have to ballast conventionally, or over-the-sleepers. When asking this, I'll add that the Blackstone West branch is intended to be something of a 'Withered Arm' for the 'Brighton, stretching rather deep into SER/SECR territory and not really being all that competitive - something of a relic, a lost ambition to reach Folkestone and Dover. As such, when it was built it would've been built to mainline standards, with the formation intended to eventually take double track. Even when the line was completed to the South, to Blackstone, rather than to the East, to Folkestone, it was hoped traffic to the growing resort would eventually be big enough to warrant double-tracking.

[BlueLightning]

The plan looks good!

 

The LBSC stopped covering sleepers c.1900, so if you are setting the layout up until 1915 then I wouldn't cover them if it was me. THey stopped using slotted post signals at about the same time, so for LBSC signals you will want the bits made by MSE.

 

Gary

[sem34090]

As I suspected. Slightly annoying with the ballasting as I think it really gives a layout that edge over later-set layouts when the ballast is over the sleepers. I had intended to use the later lower-quadrants though, so it makes sense I suppose.

Oh well!

Mind you... much of the time the layout will be running with pre-1905 stock? I suppose I don't need to go all the way up to 1915? But then motor-trains are very much around 1910, so...

I think I'll have to ballast conventionally.

[BlueLightning]

I seem to recall when I was in the early stages of Oak Hill and discussing with friends at club that you could get away with ballasting sleepers on sleepy corners of the LBSC up until about 1910, but anything after that date would have them uncovered.

 

So if you stick to having the motor-trains as the newest thing then you could just about get away with it if you wanted. (I won't point out its wrong as I quite like having the ballast over the sleepers as well!)

 

Gary

[sem34090]

So, I was thinking...

Had the Blackstone West branch been built under the circumstances I described, I wondered what sort of loco Mr Craven would've designed for it, given he generally designed a new loco at any and every given opportunity. I'm not sure why, but I settled on a Crampton as something different, and perhaps a novel idea that Craven may have tried, implausible as that may be. Here are my second set of doodles, showing the loco in Craven-era condition and also in, even less plausible, Stroudley condition. The final doodle shows the locomotive as purchased by the Blackstone Pier Initiative Company and overhauled at Ashford.

Here is a perhaps slightly more realistic take on the same loco, as a well tank.

In other news, I appear to have actually done some modelling, and both the ratio coaches shown above have received repaints into a slightly better, home-mixed, rendition of Umber & White (Less Cream this time!):

Edit - Please excuse the mess that appears to exist. I was reading the novel in between applying paint to the coaches, then had the idea for the Crampton Tank... all on my bed... By the time I did the doodles the paint had dried.

Edited August 8, 2018 by sem34090

[Zomboid]

Wouldn't that loco have a better chance of moving itself and some kind of trailing load if it were a 2-2-4T? The weight over the drivers in 4-2-2T form isn't going to aid adhesion much. Though it is quite elegant in a shortened Adams radial kind of way.

[BlueLightning]

SEM,

 

I like the design, however it seems a bit implausible.

 

I note that Blackstone West was built 1851. I assume this is the opening date of the line? This puts it early into Craven's career on the LBSC, having taken over as locomotive, carriage and wagon superintendent in 1847, however his first designs did not appear until 1852. Brighton works was not in a state to build it's own locomotives until that point.

 

Cravens early engines were all 2-2-2 designs until his first 0-6-0 in 1854, and all his designs seem to have had 6 wheels. All of his designs built before 1854 had been withdrawn by 1877

 

All the locos acquired by the LBSC in the first few years of his tenure (1847 - 1851) were from one of 3 builders, Timothy Hackworth, Stothert & Slaughter, and Sharp Brothers. Out of these there were 3x 2-4-0s (2x Stothert & Slaughter, 1x Sharp Brothers) and 2x 0-6-0s (Stothert & Slaughter) the rest were 2-2-2. All of these had been withdrawn by the mid 1880s

 

Other than that it's not bad. (but I'm not an engineer and you have seen how many revisions my designs need over on my threads!!)

 

Gary

Edited August 8, 2018 by BlueLightning

[sem34090]

No more actual layout progress to report on, but I have now done a map. I decided I wanted to know where various buildings were, and the relationship between the three stations. It may prove useful for a few others here, but is mainly to serve as a guide for my layout. I can't help feeling that the old town (Essentially Rye - to the right of the SER Line) is too small. The 'New Town' is Winchelsea, transplanted. I used Ryde to form the Pier station. As it is for my own purposes the map depicts the town before the First World War, but I may do a later one eventually.

EDIT: I've already noticed, upon posting this, that the area of sand under the pier needs reducing to give any sizeable vessel any hope of being able to dock there.

Edited August 11, 2018 by sem34090

[RedGemAlchemist]

Nice to see you finally getting things under way, Sem! I love any growth to the canon, as I expect does Edwardian, and I look forward to seeing us further evolution.